Kethane Pack 0.9.2 - New cinematic trailer! - 1.0 compatibility update

[forsaken1111]

I've found using some of the reactors from the KSP Interstellar mod incredibly helpful in powering my kethane rigs, even if they add a lot of weight. My current mun-based kethane rig is powered by a small nuclear reactor and brayton cycle thermal generator and uses an aluminum-oxygen rocket motor which can be refueled by electrolyzing the munar regolith. I've been using it to mine and lift kethane to my munar depot for processing.

[Kielm]

I've been wondering (dangerous I know).

How difficult would it be to introduce other 'types' of kethane? Would it be a lot of work to have, for example, 3 different isotopes of Kethane that are mineable on a planet?

One 'vanilla' isotope, relatively common, same as the current one. A second much lighter, but much more widely occurring, less valuable (i.e. lower conversion ratios) isotope, and one much heavier, rarer (but much more valuable) type.

Would this be tricky to implement?

The reason I ask is that I like the Kethane mod but I tend to play it as more of an 'Unobtanium' kind of resource and tweak the conversion values to make it much more valuable, as I like to store it in orbital facilities to use as refuelling stations. At stock values I find that a trip down from Munar orbit and back doesn't net that much Kethane, and I only really use the scanner until I've found one decent sized deposit.

Having the option to either drop down anywhere to quickly refuel or look long and hard for a decent valuable isotope for long-term refining would (in my opinion) give this mod much more variation.

Has this already been suggested? If not, thoughts?

[KhaosCorp]

I've been wondering (dangerous I know).

How difficult would it be to introduce other 'types' of kethane? Would it be a lot of work to have, for example, 3 different isotopes of Kethane that are mineable on a planet?

One 'vanilla' isotope, relatively common, same as the current one. A second much lighter, but much more widely occurring, less valuable (i.e. lower conversion ratios) isotope, and one much heavier, rarer (but much more valuable) type.

Would this be tricky to implement?

The reason I ask is that I like the Kethane mod but I tend to play it as more of an 'Unobtanium' kind of resource and tweak the conversion values to make it much more valuable, as I like to store it in orbital facilities to use as refuelling stations. At stock values I find that a trip down from Munar orbit and back doesn't net that much Kethane, and I only really use the scanner until I've found one decent sized deposit.

Having the option to either drop down anywhere to quickly refuel or look long and hard for a decent valuable isotope for long-term refining would (in my opinion) give this mod much more variation.

Has this already been suggested? If not, thoughts?

Thanks to Kethane and its somewhat open API this is very possible...not only possible but its babytown frollic easy to add new resources to the game (even harvestable ones).

There are a couple other mods adding other fuel types but meh...

Majiir has stated in the past that Kethane will not stay a single resource mod forever...I was actually working on a resource mod myself till he said that lol.

[Psycix]

Majir, is there anything in the pipeline to make scanning with multiple crafts and/or higher timewarps possible?

My suggestions which got washed over by a bunch of other replies:

Idea: Retroactive calculated scanning

Calculate all covered ground backwards upon returning to the craft after it has been unfocused for a certain amount of time.

Rails allows you to instantly calculate where an object is located at any given point in time. Adjust for the planet's rotation, and we have a scan-node.

Use this to loop through all passed "units of time", from the time where the scanning craft lost focus, to the time where the craft regained focus. It is OK if this takes a while to compute. Perhaps simply make a right click button "process acquired data".

I suppose that the backwards-calculation would be limited to a certain amount of days or orbits for technical reasons.

Another idea: Client scanners, server processing node

A new component is introduced which takes the role of a server, while all scan-satellites are clients connecting to it.

I propose the server needs to be in the same SOI, or potentially works a bit like remotetech (range, line of sight, relay network)

How it works (technically):

Like scanners check their own position relative to the planet's surface in order to determine the scan node they are on, the server craft will check on the position of its clients.

So every scan period, for each client connected, do a scan on their position.

Should be very doable to code. I think the main hurdle is connecting the crafts, but remotetech, which does this in a very advanced manner, has proven this to be feasible.

The system could be expanded in such a manner that a multitude of scanners together can triangulate signals and allow for all sorts of fancy scanning obit combinations.

How it is used (practically):

Launch a few scanners with antennas into orbit around, say, the mun.

Launch a processing server satellite.

Connect to scan-satellites.

All scanners are now working simultaneously as long as focus is on the server craft.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Psycix

[togfox]

I've been wondering (dangerous I know).

How difficult would it be to introduce other 'types' of kethane? Would it be a lot of work to have, for example, 3 different isotopes of Kethane that are mineable on a planet?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50986-Universal-Resources-Because-Kethane-is-too-Easy!

Creating a new 'resource' is very easy and Majir has done it so it requires no change to the code. Creating a new part/drill/tank/converter requires modelling skills.

[wasmic]

Idea: Retroactive calculated scanning

Calculate all covered ground backwards upon returning to the craft after it has been unfocused for a certain amount of time.

Rails allows you to instantly calculate where an object is located at any given point in time. Adjust for the planet's rotation, and we have a scan-node.

Use this to loop through all passed "units of time", from the time where the scanning craft lost focus, to the time where the craft regained focus. It is OK if this takes a while to compute. Perhaps simply make a right click button "process acquired data".

I suppose that the backwards-calculation would be limited to a certain amount of days or orbits for technical reasons.

Another idea: Client scanners, server processing node

A new component is introduced which takes the role of a server, while all scan-satellites are clients connecting to it.

I propose the server needs to be in the same SOI, or potentially works a bit like remotetech (range, line of sight, relay network)

How it works (technically):

Like scanners check their own position relative to the planet's surface in order to determine the scan node they are on, the server craft will check on the position of its clients.

So every scan period, for each client connected, do a scan on their position.

Should be very doable to code. I think the main hurdle is connecting the crafts, but remotetech, which does this in a very advanced manner, has proven this to be feasible.

The system could be expanded in such a manner that a multitude of scanners together can triangulate signals and allow for all sorts of fancy scanning obit combinations.

How it is used (practically):

Launch a few scanners with antennas into orbit around, say, the mun.

Launch a processing server satellite.

Connect to scan-satellites.

All scanners are now working simultaneously as long as focus is on the server craft.

I think your second idea is very good. I have no idea how to code, but I have an idea that #2 would be easiest to implement. You have my support.

[Kielm]

Thank you for the information!

I've looked through the Kethane API and it does indeed seem to be very straightforward to add new resources. The challenge therefore becomes in the (potentially new) parts. I think for now it would be best to test with existing parts, adding other Kethane isotopes to tanks and converters to see what the game is like with the extra layers.

[Psykikk]

i read a lot about this ISA MAP mod and have taken a look into it. (not downloaded it yet)..

I wondered: whats the use for it compared to kethane ? I mean with kethane i actually have a valid reason to scan a planet.

Kethane is for (next to Mechjeb) the best mod so far. hands down

[DerekL1963]

i read a lot about this ISA MAP mod and have taken a look into it. (not downloaded it yet)..

I wondered: whats the use for it compared to kethane ? I mean with kethane i actually have a valid reason to scan a planet.

ISA Mapsat lets you locate anomalies and gives you an ingame reason to use kerbalmaps.com to study planetary terrain for potential landing/base sites. It's not everyone's cup o' infusion of free radicals, but it's not without use.

/derail

[KhaosCorp]

Majir, is there anything in the pipeline to make scanning with multiple crafts and/or higher timewarps possible?

My suggestions which got washed over by a bunch of other replies:

Its possible with the current scanners to scan at max warp...you just have to use a alot of em.

[CtrlAltEL1TE]

Are there any alternate download links? I cant access the nabaal.net URL. It keeps saying my connection has been reset.

[forsaken1111]

Are there any alternate download links? I cant access the nabaal.net URL. It keeps saying my connection has been reset.

Disable your antivirus briefly, it is flagged by some AV and is a false positive

[Galane]

Its possible with the current scanners to scan at max warp...you just have to use a alot of em.

I put four of the small Kethane scanners, spread out on girders, hoping to scan more than one hex at a time. Didn't work for that but did scan Kerbin at 50x warp without skipping spots.

[Kielm]

So I added some new resources but I'm struggling with some balance issues so I thought I would ask for opinions on ideas.

I have three new resources. Lets call them K2, K5, and K10.

K2 is 2.5x as heavy as Kethane.

K5 is 5x as heavy as Kethane.

K10 is 10x as heavy as Kethane.

K2 occurs about 1/2 as much as Kethane. K5 occurs about 1/5th as much, and K10 has at most, two small deposits per planet (very hard to find).

The tricky part is balancing the conversion yield and other requirements. At the moment, the conversion yield is the weight ratio squared. So K2 yields (2.5 x 2.5=)6.25x as much LiquidFuel and Oxidiser. K5 yields 25x as much, and K10 yields 100x as much. I think this is overpowered too but please read to the end.

So immediately the benefits of mining K5 and K10 are obvious. Why would we mine anything else?

Power. The power requirements are scaled to match the YIELD, and not the weight. So whatever Kethane costs to convert into Liquidfuel, K10 costs 100x as much power, K5 costs 25x the power, etc.

This makes refining the rarer resources only feasible on stations on bases, and gives a purpose for oodles of solar panels. Some of the K10 conversions require 1,200 power/s (67 of the largest solar panels)!

Also remember the weight issue. K10 might yield 100x what Kethane does, but it also weighs 10x as much, so immediately you can only haul 1/10th the units you could normally haul, so 'real world' yield is actually 10x. (K5's real yield is more like 5x, and K2 is about 2.5x.

My thoughts:

1) Unsure of yields. I don't know if they're about right, underpowered or overpowered.

2) Make a reactor that uses K10 to generate 1000 power/s. Consuming a *very* valuable resource to power resource converting efforts.

[Tripod27]

So I added some new resources but I'm struggling with some balance issues so I thought I would ask for opinions on ideas.

I have three new resources. Lets call them K2, K5, and K10.

K2 is 2.5x as heavy as Kethane.

K5 is 5x as heavy as Kethane.

K10 is 10x as heavy as Kethane.

K2 occurs about 1/2 as much as Kethane. K5 occurs about 1/5th as much, and K10 has at most, two small deposits per planet (very hard to find).

The tricky part is balancing the conversion yield and other requirements. At the moment, the conversion yield is the weight ratio squared. So K2 yields (2.5 x 2.5=)6.25x as much LiquidFuel and Oxidiser. K5 yields 25x as much, and K10 yields 100x as much. I think this is overpowered too but please read to the end.

So immediately the benefits of mining K5 and K10 are obvious. Why would we mine anything else?

Power. The power requirements are scaled to match the YIELD, and not the weight. So whatever Kethane costs to convert into Liquidfuel, K10 costs 100x as much power, K5 costs 25x the power, etc.

This makes refining the rarer resources only feasible on stations on bases, and gives a purpose for oodles of solar panels. Some of the K10 conversions require 1,200 power/s (67 of the largest solar panels)!

Also remember the weight issue. K10 might yield 100x what Kethane does, but it also weighs 10x as much, so immediately you can only haul 1/10th the units you could normally haul, so 'real world' yield is actually 10x. (K5's real yield is more like 5x, and K2 is about 2.5x.

My thoughts:

1) Unsure of yields. I don't know if they're about right, underpowered or overpowered.

2) Make a reactor that uses K10 to generate 1000 power/s. Consuming a *very* valuable resource to power resource converting efforts.

Sounds Pretty interesting to me, although couldn't things with only a few solar panels or radioactive power stick thingies just timewarp to convert K10 at a reasonable speed?

Also, can different types of kethane fit in the same tank, does each type need different tanks?

[Kielm]

Sounds Pretty interesting to me, although couldn't things with only a few solar panels or radioactive power stick thingies just timewarp to convert K10 at a reasonable speed?

Also, can different types of kethane fit in the same tank, does each type need different tanks?

My understanding of the kethane module is that the rate of conversion is scaled to available power. if you only have (for example) 12 out of 1,200 required power, you'll get 1/100th the rate. So yes, you can run at 10% power and time warp to 100x or so, but the same applies to pretty much everything else in KSP too.

It's more about the amount you have to mine to get fuel. K10 gets the most fuel if you've the patience to locate it and the design to haul it.

I haven't decided tanks yet. I'll start with one small tank for each and test how it goes.

A solution where one tank can hold a set mass of any (they differ in density so amounts would vary) would be good, but too easy at first!

[Galane]

Isotopes of liquid and gas elements are always mixed in with their "standard" version. Various methods have been developed to separate them, chemical compounding then refining, centrifuges and others.

Isotopes of solid elements can vary in concentration, even within a small sample. One that methods of separation are fairly widely known is Uranium. One method refines the ore into uranium oxide (AKA yellowcake because that's what it looks like) then converts it to uranium hexafluoride gas. That involves the extremely corrosive element fluorine. The hexaflouride gas is run through long and narrow centrifuge tubes (like spinning a pipe at several thousand RPM about its lengthwise axis) to separate the heavier U238 from the lighter U235. The gaseous uranium is then somehow converted to solid uranium metal.

Deuterium (AKA heavy water) is an isotope of water.

It's not that much heavier than normal water. Dunno how it's separated from water, but you don't want to drink it straight.

If Kethane is a gas then a Kethane Isotope Centrifuge Separator part could be used to separate out the isotopes, as long as you've also included separate tanks for each one. Using only single tanks when storing it would keep them all mixed and it should work the same as the regular Kethane mod.

[Alistone]

The 100x yield issue becomes OP because it seems to allow the creation of mass. That means I can burn half of my ships mass running an atomic engine and have a relatively high thrust to weight and then convert 0.5% of my ship's weight of this superkethane back into fuel to bring my tanks back to full. Doesn't really matter if it is 0.5% or 5%; it still allows on site conversion to "create" additional mass which changes the the entire thrust/mass equation.

It's meant to be rare/special... but it will become standard and OP or it will not be used at all.

...thats my thoughts...

[Kielm]

If Kethane is a gas then a Kethane Isotope Centrifuge Separator part could be used to separate out the isotopes, as long as you've also included separate tanks for each one. Using only single tanks when storing it would keep them all mixed and it should work the same as the regular Kethane mod.

That's an interesting idea. Thanks for that!

The 100x yield issue becomes OP because it seems to allow the creation of mass. That means I can burn half of my ships mass running an atomic engine and have a relatively high thrust to weight and then convert 0.5% of my ship's weight of this superkethane back into fuel to bring my tanks back to full. Doesn't really matter if it is 0.5% or 5%; it still allows on site conversion to "create" additional mass which changes the the entire thrust/mass equation.

It's meant to be rare/special... but it will become standard and OP or it will not be used at all.

...thats my thoughts...

You're right, it does allow the creation of mass, which I'm not keen on because you're left with an overpowered (almost) limitless fuel (kethane) tank.

Now I'm leaning more towards an Oil refining model - Using Crude (or Krude) Oil to produce a variety of products for different situations.

[forsaken1111]

That's an interesting idea. Thanks for that!

You're right, it does allow the creation of mass, which I'm not keen on because you're left with an overpowered (almost) limitless fuel (kethane) tank.

Now I'm leaning more towards an Oil refining model - Using Crude (or Krude) Oil to produce a variety of products for different situations.

But isn't that what kethane IS? Kethane is the crude oil and its refined into LFO, xenon, etc.

[JewelShisen]

Heavy water is good old H2O with at least one (both? how likely is that?) H being deuterium (D2O or DOH, I guess), so while Galane got it a bit wrong, at least he's barking up the right tree.

True. I was just correcting the part he did get wrong. Also 'heavy water' actually is not that toxic. Will irratate your body some but won't hurt or kill you normally.

[B787_300]

If I leave a scanner in orbit when it is turned on will it continue to scan even if I go fly other crafts? and Does the scan that is generated visible every immediately or do i need to transmit it back to base somehow?

[taniwha]

No, you have to baby the scanner, it's a KSP limitation (though with a lot of effort (and maybe FPS loss) it might be doable, but...).

[theSpeare]

Can someone please tell me how to change the color for a KethaneResource node? The documentation doesn't really explain what sort of values I should use. I'd like to change it to blue or something.

[Kielm]

For colour changing:

Look in the Gamedata/Kethane/Resource folder for a Kethane.cfg or Resource.cfg (I can't remember which and I don't have the folder structure handy).

In one of those is a Resource Definition for Kethane, which will contain a ColourEmpty line and ColourFull line.

The numbers represent RBG (Red, Green, Blue) values and are scaled 0.0 - 1.0 instead of the normal 0-255. Having the values 1.000, 0.000, 0.000 for example should make it a painfully bright red.

In there you can also find other Kethane values you can change to adjust the size and number of deposits, everything there is configurable to your heart's content. Check the Kethane API for full details of what each line does.