Pthigrivi

Yeah this is sort of a half kidding suggestion. Im sure Boards of Canada are living in some mystic commune on an island off Norway right now. Im sure there is a ton of generic liscenceable music out there, but Kerbal is kind of a quirky game. It be really nice to get a nice unique sound for each world.

Im only half kidding about this. They'd be so into it.

I did a similar thing on my own but this is much more rigorous. We actually came up with some similar numbers, though I think I was a touch heavier across the board. Really like some of your other tolerance adjustments as well.

Finally updated for Turquoise Hexagon Sun. Any other fossils out there remember Boards of Canada?

The dev's have wanted clouds for some time now. The reason they've been left out thus far has mainly been to cut down on memory usage, but after the Unity upgrade we may be seeing them very soon. Cities, especially 3d cities with collision grids would incredibly cool and fun to see, but would take an enormous amount of work and could gobble up much too much memory to really work. These do however get suggested a lot and are on the what-not-to-suggest-list. In the mean time, if you have a decent enough system you can download the Environmental Visual Enhancements or Stock Visual Enhancements mods to get something similar. Especially with Scatterer the effect is actually quite stunning.

Glad you like! It's true some would be quite simple, but others, the Materials Bay and Seismometer in particular would take quite a bit of work to implement. I think especially the impactor experiment would be a ton of fun for people and well worth it. The thinking with Materials Bays is that its really a routing problem. Its not just one-off missions to any old place on the surface. The samples you're collecting are tangible and useful. You can collect a few samples from the Mun and Minmus, deliver them to a science station in Kerbin orbit, analyze them, then load them into probes destined for Eve or Laythe and expose them there. In my mind once a sample was analyzed you could load it into Materials Bays from that location indefinitely, so it's not like you'd be pressed to collect 20 or 30 different samples every time you landed. Think of it like they're collecting a nice size Munrock, then filing off little specs of it into into Materials Bays for exposure. It could look something like this: I like fog too, Im just thinking it might be more successful as applied within the existing worlds, withholding new and interesting things hidden there, rather than hiding new, mostly empty worlds.

How many, do you think? Like if they're going to invest time constructing interesting new planets I'd rather just get a GP2 with moons, rather than design a huge number of planets I'd only see if I opened multiple saves. I totally agree with you on that "around the corner" feeling, but Id rather get that feeling in-flight or while tooling around with a rover. Right now there isn't much of that because the worlds themselves are basically empty. If we had a basic set of surface features spread across the planets, geysers, volcanoes, pools of primordial goo, etc, and some way to use instruments to find them the way we now prospect for resources the sense of discovery wouldn't just be 'oh cool another blank planet to land on and return from', but an experience that extended in-flight and caused players to change their plans and improvise. Thats why I think making experiments truly interactive rather than jut a thing to click is so important. That's where discovery should come in, challenging players not just to go there and come back, but to engage with the surface while they're there to yield the best rewards.

The point is moot though anyway, as a procedural solar system is not planned. At any rate Id much, much rather see the worlds we have given more dimension and life than see endless sets of new, random, empty planets.

I could support this thread becoming the new default 'science improvements' catchall in the frequently suggested list. The current one is pretty skimpy. Ive seen a lot of good ideas over the last couple of years and it makes sense to consolidate things. The science system is one of the oldest career elements and one of the longest to go without major revisions. Its not surprising it that it feels lacking at the moment, but I disagree with a lot of people that the basic concept of collecting science points and then spending them on the tech tree is fundamentally flawed. It's simple to understand and flexible enough to let players go where they want to go and earn rewards without being overly proscriptive about it. And while I agree generally that discovery as an idea is great and really important to a player's sense of exploration, so far I've not been convinced that locking planets or making them blurry really adds much to the game. Part of the problem is the worlds themselves are pretty much empty, so making them blurry doesn't actually hide anything. I tend to agree with Tater that 'discovery' should have more to do with revealing information about each planet that's relevant to playing the game and interacting with them. If experiments were to unlock things like biome maps and landing site prediction they would feel much more rewarding. The other problem with science I think is with the experiments themselves. The grindiness people are feeling isn't as much due to the layout or balance of the tech tree as it is due to the fact that collecting science isn't actually very fun. Its essentially going to a place and repetitively right-clicking through a series of functionally identical parts. It doesn't feel like science, but thats not because its unrealistic, its because it doesn't feel like doing something special to collect information thats useful. Generally: - Each experiment should be unique, and should require the player to do something special besides clicking on a part. - In addition to science points, each experiment should provide information that's valuable to the player and useful to playing the game outside of the tech tree. - As much as possible science should feed into the core fun of the game--building and flying planes and rockets--rather than distract from it. I've posted this before, so apologies if people have read it already, but these were the changes I suggested last year that I think might not only take the clickiness and grind out of science, but could also make conducting experiments more fun, challenging, and rewarding. In addition to providing the player with unique useful information, each experiment requires the player to in some small way fly differently. That way conducting experiments is directly involved with how missions are planned and executed. I've also suggested automating most experiments so that players can focus on the flying rather than being constantly redirected by tedious right-clicking. More experiments could be added, but until each existing experiment is given some individual attention adding more really only exacerbates the clickiness problem. Crew Reports: Gathered automatically by crewed capsules and stored for each new biome the craft enters, serving as a running log of the mission. EVA Reports: Gathered automatically on EVA for each new biome a kerbal enters and stored when they return to the vessel. Scientists gather more valuable EVA reports, and their value can be further upgraded as they gain in levels. Kerbals cannot discern between biomes above the surface. Surface Samples: Can be gathered on EVA by any crew member, though higher level scientists gather more valuable samples. Samples cannot be transmitted unless analyzed in a mobile processing lab, but give much more science than other sources. When a sample is analyzed either in a science lab or on Kerbin it will indicate precise ore concentrations and will become available for loading into Materials Bays (more below). Goo Canister: First experiment available in the tech tree and acts as an introduction to gathering science. When it enters a biome with uncollected science it flashes blue for a few moments and then auto-exposes. Its one-time use unless there's a scientist on board in which case it auto-collects, stores, and then auto-resets. It draws no power. By default its set to activated, but it can be deactivated and reactivated via right click if a player wishes to hold out for more a more valuable exposure. It cannot distinguish between biomes above the surface. Thermometer: Next experiment on the tech tree, flashes blue and then takes a reading and stores automatically when entering a new biome. Its activated by default, but draws 1.5 e/m while activated and can be deactivated to save power. It cannot distinguish between biomes above the lower atmosphere or high above a body. Vessels with a Thermometer on board show overheat bars in flight, though even without the parts will still glow red. Barometer: Arrives shortly after in the Tech Tree and flashes blue when new science is available. The barometer is activated by default when in the atmosphere, but can be deactivated to save power via right-click. Unlike the thermometer, the barometer logs science based on the vertical swath of atmosphere it passes through while continuously running. This means it gathers a lot of data on ascent and descent, but sitting on the ground it gathers next to nothing. Later in the game, a body for which the player has completed a barometric scan will show trajectory, landing site, and aerobreak predictions factoring drag for higher level pilots. Materials Bay: Materials Bays should be able to be loaded with materials, i.e. samples, and replace the current Mobile Lab magic science generator. When a surface or atmospheric sample is recovered, it goes into a bank of available samples. Upon launch, the materials Bay can be loaded with up to 5 of these samples, and when activated (0.5 e/s) it generates and stores science based on the value of the sample multiplied by the value of the exposure location. This means that a sample from the launchpad exposed at KSC will be worth very little, but a sample from Ike exposed on Duna will be worth a great deal. Samples generate science for 30 days and then become spent. Materials Bays can be reloaded by an adequately staffed Mobile Processing Lab, but only with samples banked at the time of the Lab's launch and with samples processed by that lab. This means bringing a lab to another body will be useful for processing and gathering science from that body over time, but samples cant be magically transported across the Kerbol System. Indeed routing samples from surface to lab to materials bays (and from planet to planet even) to maximize their value would be the real challenge. Atmospheric analyzer: Essentially works as an atmospheric sample collector. Its deactivated by default, and once activated (1 e/s) the vessel must maintain roughly the same speed and altitude for 10 seconds to collect a viable sample. Like surface samples they may not be transmitted unless analyzed by a mobile processing lab. If atmospheric xenon collection were enabled perhaps precise concentration levels could be determined from these samples. Surface Sample Collector: This part would replace the surface scanner, and ought really to be a small arm and drill that drops down when activated. It aught to come very late in the tech tree, but in principle enable collection of surface samples by probes. Like other surface samples these would be available for loading into Materials bays and would show ore concentrations when analyzed. Survey Scanner: Works much as it does now, once placed in a polar orbit it generates a rough ore concentration map which can then be transmitted for additional science. Narrow Band Scanner: Works much as it does now, but could also provide accurate distance to surface information or even a topographic overlay. Gravoli detector: This part works 2 ways, its activated by default and draws .5 e/s, and like the thermometer automatically collects and stores data for each new biome it passes into. If however it is placed in a polar orbit it gathers all biome information for that body at that altitude, and if it is attached to a vessel that also has a survey scanner it can generate an overlay map of all biomes on that body. If a mission planner were to be added including flight time and delta-v estimates, completing a gravoli scan might unlock that body in the planner, encouraging players to send a probe first if they wanted to optimize their crewed mission. Seismometer: This part is redesigned as an impactor experiment. Once on the surface and activated (2 e/s) a blue circle appears on the body in map mode indicating the scanning radius. The higher the level scientist on board the larger the radius. If while activated another object is slammed into the surface a red impact radius is shown, whose radius is determined by the mass and speed upon impact (I can foresee some really fun asteroid antics here ) The Seismometer generates science based on the area of overlap between the scanning and impact radii, meaning more precise collisions and bigger booms make for more science. Additionally, ore concentrations can be seen with detail within this scanned area making for better landing site decisions for mining operations. Mobile Processing Lab: With material studies now moved over to the Materials Bays, the lab can be used primarily for processing and reloading samples. In addition new contracts could provide special samples which could either be pre-loaded or delivered to existing labs for processing and/or loading into materials bays. Unlike other data sources processing samples makes makes them transmittable, with level 1-5 scientists converting samples 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% and 100% respectively. Where most capsules can store just 3 samples, Mobile Processing Labs could store 25 samples at a time. Transmitting data: As almost all data is automatically logged and stored, all that would be left would be transmission. For simplicity's sake, I feel like clicking any pod or antenna ought to bring up a single data log indicating all stored data in one screen, the value of each piece of data, and giving the option to transmit. I'll be interested to see the changes Roverdude has made to the antenna system in the future, but in my mind the most straight forward solution is that all data except samples should be in principle 100% transmittable, and all losses could be controlled by quality of arrays. If surface samples could not be transmitted without processing and were worth a great deal (as they should be) then returning these samples would make 2 way trips worthwhile without the over-complication and grind of multiple transmissions. Biome Multipliers: Another thing that could give dimension to each planet would be to vary the science and experience reward for different biomes by 10-25%. If for instance the Polar Lowlands on the Mun were worth 20% more than landing on any old point on the Midlands players might spend more time thinking carefully about where they land rather than plopping down anywhere they haven't before. This could become especially important if easter eggs were expanded to become real, interesting surface features like mineral formations and volcanoes in small but valuable biomes, and would reward players for precise landings and using rovers to do surface exploration. ... Oh and just for reference a procedurally generated solar system has been ruled out by Squad and is on the WNTS list. Could make a cool mod if someone was feeling ambitious though.

I really like this idea, but I'd be happy even if new recruits arrived with more or less random features. If there were just 5 or 8 different hairstyles and colors, glasses and facial hair, it would add a lot role playing and give a sense that they each had somewhat individual personalities.

Hmm. I know this has been discussed before and I get the rationale, but I will say Im with Foxster on this one. I'd rather see its mass and cost increased a tiny fraction and have at least an escape hatch on the roof. Its not a huge deal, but people do use these things in unexpected ways, and Im just not so sure the added rigamarole of crew transferring before being able to eva is exactly the best solution for balance.

Well, two things: a) I agree there's a certain mystique about them which is nice, and there's something to be said for leaving some things to the imagination and also driving players to go online and communicate about what they've found. At the same time the actual scale of the sites is so incredibly small compared to the world they exist in that many players might play for years and not find one beyond the island airfield. In this way unless you've gone online and seen pictures and looked them up on the wiki and found a way to guide yourself to some coordinates, all of which kind of removes you from the direct immersion in the game, the anomalies are basically statistically irrelevant. I think its fair to say if they were a more integral part of the game people would visit them more often, and would be just as likely if not more to go online and talk about them. Which brings me to b) Farming in this sense doesn't actually sound like a bad or distracting thing at all to me. The great thing about them having a real in-game value is that they become part of actual gameplay, and not just "oh neat" scenery. There becomes a specific reason and incentive to carefully pick a landing site and do precision landings rather than just plop down anywhere. To me the current easter eggs are neat and fun but I'd love to see that system expanded and given a new layer in which some become more common and serious, like active geological formations or signs of life. Being able to map them, even if it was just a little red speck on an overlay, would stir players to say "Oh whats that?" and create new opportunities for exploration without having to close or minimize the game and open up a browser. To me it does nothing to spoil the surprise of what they find when they get there, it only gives them a vehicle to explore and increases the odds that it happens on its own. Here's just a goofy real life example, check out this map: If you look closely up at northern Quebec you'll see a small, round, green circle in a lake. I saw this map years ago and thought, wtf is that?? So I did some research and found out this exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manicouagan_Reservoir. Its a meteor impact crater that forms the fifth largest reservoir in the world, and powers half of quebec and New England. About a year later some friends of mine loaded up some canoes and had one of the best camping trips of my life. Have you ever seen a shatter cone the size of a house? They're dope.

Yeah, its been a while but I've used scansat before and know it does biome mapping, which is huge. This for me falls into a territory of what could be a really valuable mission planning resource in general, even if easter eggs didn't show up. If for no other reason than to encourage players to send a probe first and gather a real visual idea of what was available so they could carefully plan a landing site for a crewed mission biome mapping would be a really great addition for stock.

Have you tried using world firsts in 1.1? I'm still on 1.0.5, but hoping the balance is getting better there.

I do like that these are becoming part of the gameplay. I'm wondering though if at some point, maybe as part of a biome mapper, there wouldn't be some way to find them without looking them up online. They shouldn't be easy to see, but if you zoomed in and looked carefully in map mode you could spot a little blip on a biome overlay.

^Well yes this is what I usually do. It's certainly not a huge deal, but if we're given the option to disable staging (presumably for this reason) it would make sense that we could reenable it later.

Hmm.. for everything? Like a specific example would be using a Mun lander that had legs on radial decouplers. It would be nice to be able to disable staging for the decouplers in the VAB so you didn't accidentally blow your legs off before landing, and then re-engage their staging so they could be blown simultaneously when taking off from the Mun.

Just a small thing I noticed, you can disable staging on many parts in the VAB, but if you have, later in flight you can't re-enable staging. Sometimes it would be nice to be able to temporarily disable staging for safety reasons (so as not to accidentally blow decouplers), but later have the option to manually re-engage them. Thats all

Really liking my new tailsitter SSTO launch platform. I've gotten higher payload fractions before but just from a pure standpoint of flexibility and ease of use its really nice to be able to put 30t in orbit, glide over ksc and pop some chutes. Mech Jeb is just for landing site prediction. Damn I'd love that to be a stock high-tier pilot skill. And used it to field test my new replaceable heat shield system.

These are interesting ideas. We've chatted about similar issues in the past and started building an aggregated career improvements thread here if you'd like to add your thoughts.

These poll numbers seem about right to me. Im excited to see some of Arsonade's changes for 1.1, but I do still feel like science needs a big pass to take the grind and clickiness out.

Ah! Thanks Politas! I was looking everywhere for that.

Does anyone know where I can find the 1.0.5 version?

Hey guys So this was a set of suggestions I made last year to make the Science system more fun and rewarding, remove clickiness and grind, and give each experiment its own unique gameplay challenge. Of all the various gameplay systems I feel like science could use the most love, and tweaking things here and there could make it a real part of playing rather than a somewhat tedious bit of right clicking. Here are the changes I proposed: Crew Reports: Gathered automatically by crewed capsules and stored for each new biome the craft enters, serving as a running log of the mission. EVA Reports: Gathered automatically on EVA for each new biome a kerbal enters and stored when they return to the vessel. Scientists gather more valuable EVA reports, and their value can be further upgraded as they gain in levels. Kerbals cannot discern between biomes above the surface. Surface Samples: Can be gathered on EVA by any crew member, though higher level scientists gather more valuable samples. Samples cannot be transmitted unless analyzed in a mobile processing lab, but give much more science than other sources. When a sample is analyzed either in a science lab or on Kerbin it will indicate precise ore concentrations and will become available for loading into Materials Bays (more below). Goo Canister: First experiment available in the tech tree and acts as an introduction to gathering science. When it enters a biome with uncollected science it flashes blue for a few moments and then auto-exposes. Its one-time use unless there's a scientist on board in which case it auto-collects, stores, and then auto-resets. It draws no power. By default its set to activated, but it can be deactivated and reactivated via right click if a player wishes to hold out for more a more valuable exposure. It cannot distinguish between biomes above the surface. Thermometer: Next experiment on the tech tree, flashes blue and then takes a reading and stores automatically when entering a new biome. Its activated by default, but draws 1.5 e/m while activated and can be deactivated to save power. It cannot distinguish between biomes above the lower atmosphere or high above a body. Vessels with a Thermometer on board show overheat bars in flight, though even without the parts will still glow red. Barometer: Arrives shortly after in the Tech Tree and flashes blue when new science is available. The barometer is activated by default when in the atmosphere, but can be deactivated to save power via right-click. Unlike the thermometer, the barometer logs science based on the vertical swath of atmosphere it passes through while continuously running. This means it gathers a lot of data on ascent and descent, but sitting on the ground it gathers next to nothing. Later in the game, a body for which the player has completed a barometric scan will show trajectory, landing site, and aerobreak predictions factoring drag for higher level pilots. Materials Bay: Materials Bays should be able to be loaded with materials, i.e. samples, and replace the current Mobile Lab magic science generator. When a surface or atmospheric sample is recovered, it goes into a bank of available samples. Upon launch, the materials Bay can be loaded with up to 5 of these samples, and when activated (0.5 e/s) it generates and stores science based on the value of the sample multiplied by the value of the exposure location. This means that a sample from the launchpad exposed at KSC will be worth very little, but a sample from Ike exposed on Duna will be worth a great deal. Samples generate science for 30 days and then become spent. Materials Bays can be reloaded by an adequately staffed Mobile Processing Lab, but only with samples banked at the time of the Lab's launch and with samples processed by that lab. This means bringing a lab to another body will be useful for processing and gathering science from that body over time, but samples cant be magically transported across the Kerbol System. Indeed routing samples from surface to lab to materials bays (and from planet to planet even) to maximize their value would be the real challenge. Atmospheric analyzer: Essentially works as an atmospheric sample collector. Its deactivated by default, and once activated (1 e/s) the vessel must maintain roughly the same speed and altitude for 10 seconds to collect a viable sample. Like surface samples they may not be transmitted unless analyzed by a mobile processing lab. If atmospheric xenon collection were enabled perhaps precise concentration levels could be determined from these samples. Surface Sample Collector: This part would replace the surface scanner, and ought really to be a small arm and drill that drops down when activated. It aught to come very late in the tech tree, but in principle enable collection of surface samples by probes. Like other surface samples these would be available for loading into Materials bays and would show ore concentrations when analyzed. Survey Scanner: Works much as it does now, once placed in a polar orbit it generates a rough ore concentration map which can then be transmitted for additional science. Narrow Band Scanner: Works much as it does now, but could also provide accurate distance to surface information or even a topographic overlay. Gravoli detector: This part works 2 ways, its activated by default and draws .5 e/s, and like the thermometer automatically collects and stores data for each new biome it passes into. If however it is placed in a polar orbit it gathers all biome information for that body at that altitude, and if it is attached to a vessel that also has a survey scanner it can generate an overlay map of all biomes on that body. If a mission planner were to be added including flight time and delta-v estimates, completing a gravoli scan might unlock that body in the planner, encouraging players to send a probe first if they wanted to optimize their crewed mission. Seismometer: This part is redesigned as an impactor experiment. Once on the surface and activated (2 e/s) a blue circle appears on the body in map mode indicating the scanning radius. The higher the level scientist on board the larger the radius. If while activated another object is slammed into the surface a red impact radius is shown, whose radius is determined by the mass and speed upon impact (I can foresee some really fun asteroid antics here ) The Seismometer generates science based on the area of overlap between the scanning and impact radii, meaning more precise collisions and bigger booms make for more science. Additionally, ore concentrations can be seen with detail within this scanned area making for better landing site decisions for mining operations. Mobile Processing Lab: With material studies now moved over to the Materials Bays, the lab can be used primarily for processing and reloading samples. In addition new contracts could provide special samples which could either be pre-loaded or delivered to existing labs for processing and/or loading into materials bays. Unlike other data sources processing samples makes makes them transmittable, with level 1-5 scientists converting samples 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% and 100% respectively. Where most capsules can store just 3 samples, Mobile Processing Labs could store 25 samples at a time. Transmitting data: As almost all data is automatically logged and stored, all that would be left would be transmission. For simplicity's sake, I feel like clicking any pod or antenna ought to bring up a single data log indicating all stored data in one screen, the value of each piece of data, and giving the option to transmit. I'll be interested to see the changes Roverdude has made to the antenna system in the future, but in my mind the most straight forward solution is that all data except samples should be in principle 100% transmittable, and all losses could be controlled by quality of arrays. If surface samples could not be transmitted without processing and were worth a great deal (as they should be) then returning these samples would make 2 way trips worthwhile without the over-complication and grind of multiple transmissions. Now I will confess right now that I've meddled in cfg files here and there but Im no programmer and actually rarely use mods, much less develop them, so I don't really have the ability to make a mod out of this myself. A lot of these things could be quite easy, but I suspect that others, the Seismometer, Gravoli, and Materials Bay/ sample system in particular could require a decent amount of work and new UI and all kinds of things. This may just be too ambitious and I should just cross my fingers that at some point Squad will come back around to doing a real gameplay pass over the science system. At the same time a few people did mention this could make for a great mod, so I thought Id put a request out and ask if there was anyone who had the knowhow to make this happen that I could work with on some of these things. Cheers, and thanks for any advice in advance, ~Colin

Another solution would be to simply make it possible to store data on a probe core. It would have niche uses, but I don't see that it would be broken in any major way.