Pthigrivi

Pretty excited to see the new relay setup. So Im guessing they wont be necessary for control? Just a transmission value boost?

I feel like group selecting would be more useful. Most of the time people have multiple active flights and wouldn't want to recover all of them.

So here's a short list. It needs work i think. Some of the scientist skills borrow from a few suggestions I had about experiments, below if anyone is interested. Pilot 0 - SAS Pilot I - Prograde, Antigrade - Normal, Antinormal - Radial in, Radial out Pilot II - Toward Target, Away from Target - Toward Maneuver, Away from Maneuver Pilot III - Hold on Angle to Horizon - Landing zone prediction - Other Kerbals on board gain experience 10% faster (for the highest level pilot, and does not stack) Pilot IV - Maintain Velocity - Conics factor drag (Aerobrake prediction) - Other Kerbals on board gain experience 20% faster (for the highest level pilot, and does not stack) Pilot V - Hold velocity X, Y, and Z - Execute suicide burn - Other Kerbals on board gain experience 30% faster (for the highest level pilot, and does not stack) Engineer 0 - Repack chutes Engineer I - Repair Wheels, Legs, Solar Panels Engineer II - Reassign action groups in flight - Resource transfer Engineer III - Repair damaged or overheated engines - Remaining Delta-V visible Engineer IV - Place Struts and Fuel lines in flight - Maintain COM via fuel redistribution Engineer V - Place/Remove small Panels, Sensors, Engines, RCS etc in flight - Drag overlay toggleable in flight Scientist 0 - Collect Surface Sample Scientist I - EVA Report, Surface Sample +10% Scientist II - EVA Report, Surface Sample +20% - Operate Science Lab - Process Samples to 25% of total recovered value Scientist III - EVA Report, Surface Sample +30% - Perform resource richness test on surface samples for ISRU - Process Samples to 50% of total recovered value - Take Core Sample from ground-scatter and Surface Features - Increase Impactor sensor radius to 25km Scientist IV - EVA Report, Surface Sample +40% - Load Samples into Materials Bay from Science Lab - Process data to 75% of total recovered value - Increase Impactor sensor radius to 50km Scientist V - EVA Report, Surface Sample +50% - Process Samples to 100% of total recovered value - Increase Impactor sensor radius to 100km Im still thinking about MaxL's suggestion. Also does anyone understand how Roverdude's ISRU engineer buff works? I get that it makes drilling more efficient, but how exactly? There were also some interesting suggestions about how to run probe networks with pilots, can someone refresh my memory?

Man, people really don't feel like reading the last five words of this thread's title.

I don't begrudge anyone the way they like to play. A lot of people like military stuff and more power to them. Still, I think the no-weapons ethos behind this game is really important. All the devs have to do is open the game up for multiple players and people can blast each other to bits with mods if they wish. I wouldn't expect to see ladders anytime. I'll also say, though it's not a priority for me (towards the end of the list actually), it would be fun to go in with a few people building bases and stations together.

Aaahhh, yes that is deceiving. Thanks for the clarification. I see why you have to phrase it the way you did, but if that's the case then it seems like a lot of rigmarole and confusion when they could just award experience as you reach it. Which is why I brought up the Habitation/Happiness idea. Rather than inducing grind, I'd prefer that a need to return home was put to better use. I feel like if experience were properly managed this wouldn't be necessary. Some things money just shouldn't buy. Solid point. I might make a working list of suggested skills for this thread.

I like this concept a lot, but might be overpowered. You might be able to tighten it so that rep pay-outs for contracts are increased when a high level pilot is on board, the recovery value of vessels with high level engineers are on board, and scientists would could gather more valuable EVA and Surface Sample.

Yeah this seems like a really obvious potential Pilot ability.

Hmm, I mean Im not against it, but I do wonder if its necessary. I'm working on a floating base for Laythe and I've rather been enjoying my test-rig launches.

So the wiki is just wrong? If true thats great news. This is exactly what Im talking about. On the extreme you could imagine a Kerbal visiting every body in the system and remaining at level 0 simply because they had not yet returned to Kerbin. That cant be right. My central point on this is that if things were to be rebalanced the only thing leveling on recovery does is require redundant return home trips and penalize more ambitious multi-world mission playstyles. Let’s say we removed flag planting, but left flight and fly-bys: Kerbin Flight: 1XP Kerbin Orbit: 2XP Kerbin Fly-by: 1XP Mun Fly-by: 1XP Mun Orbit: 2XP Mun Landing: 5XP Minmus Fly-by: 1XP Minmus Orbit: 2XP Minmus Landing: 4XP So making orbit will give 1 level, landing on a moon will give 2 levels, but level 3 will require landing on both moons. Kerbol Orbit: 2XP Asteroid visit: 3XP Duna Fly-by: 2XP Duna Orbit: 4XP Duna Flight: 2XP Duna Landing: 9XP Ike Fly-by: 1XP Ike Orbit: 2XP Ike Landing: 5XP A Kerbal can make level 3 by leaving straight for Duna, but not level 4. Visiting the Mun, Minmus, Ike, and Duna will get a player to level 4, but not level 5. Reaching level 5 would require visiting at least 2 planets. This seems pretty reasonable to me. Other planets could be similarly adjusted. All that's really been removed is the need for repetitious missions. Which is the main point. Requiring players to repeat menial tasks when they've already demonstrated the ability to do more complicated ones is the definition of grind. I realize why people would worry that things might become too easy, especially for people who play a lot, but you have to consider that very few players ever actually do land on 2 planets. All I'm suggesting is that reducing the amount of time fussing over repeat leveling missions makes room for players to really play the game, mounting missions to places they've never been. If we are going to fuss, I'd rather be fussing over carefully picking a landing site and whether I need a rover or not.

Really? Has this changed? Thats not what it says in the wiki, and to be honest the UI for this system is so scant I'm not sure Ive even noticed? Not I think if the rewards were simply reduced. If it was quite difficult to reach level 2 by seeing everything in Kerbin SOI, then a fresh Kerbal reaching Duna could still only reach level 2 or so. That still seems pretty fair. You're also basing that on the fact that as things stand a level 3 kerbal is essentially maxed. If levels 4 and 5 held much bigger rewards and required completing everything in SOI and visiting at least 2 planets that too seems pretty reasonable. The main concern is that mid-level game progression where some of your original kerbals are leveled up nicely, and you have a pack of newbies you'd like to make useful before a big interplanetary mission. Sending them on a bunch of repeat Mun missions with no other yield is kind of a drag. It also hampers players who use reusable landers and stations. As with a Jool 5, If I send a kerbal to the Mun, then back to a station, refuel, and then out to Minmus, they remain at level 0 until they return home. You think? I tend to think any time players are spending fussing over something menial is time that could be spent enjoying the better parts of the game. It aught to be a balance between new players and veterans. For a player who's just made it to the Mun, mounting 2 interplanetary missions to get their kerbals up to level 5 would be pretty intimidating. Long time players on the other hand aren't going to want to sit around replaying dozens of low-level missions. I tend to think leveling up on the fly satisfies both. This concern I am sympathetic to, and I actually think this could be a really important window to make habitation modules a real part of the game and not just eye candy. My thinking is a new component to experience could be added at some point called "Happiness". Each Kerbal would leave KSC with 100% happiness, and each day it would lose 1%. When a kerbal reached their destination, XP would pay out based on this percentage. The rate of decline could however be reduced or nearly stopped by adding more kerbals to the mission, and by including habitation modules. Not only would this make down-time and crew rotation necessary, but it would be a push against sending poor Jeb to Eeloo in a lander can without breaking the game. He could get there and would still be useful, but he'd be unhappy and wouldn't learn anything from what he was doing.

Yeah as a bit of an organization freak I'd love this. I could probably quibble over your lineup but as a general sentiment +1.

Given that the upper tiers are not yet filled, it seems pretty clear that Squad intends to revisit Kerbal experience at some point, so I thought we could chat about how to improve the system. While skills have been discussed a few times, how to make pilots more useful etc, I don't think we've talked much about how gaining experience works. I've been playing for some time and I’m not sure even I’m clear about the most efficient way to level kerbals, so I can imagine newer players might be having trouble. A few thoughts: - There are a number of factors leading to experience grind, but one of the biggest to my mind is how and when experience is awarded. I actually think exploration as the principal activity is the simplest, least grindy way of measuring what kerbals have done, but the fact that they only receive XP upon recovery does slow things down. It creates the incentive for repetitive one-off missions rather than building ambitious multi-vessel space programs. For instance a player who sent a kerbal on a Jool-5 would stay level 0 until they returned home to Kerbin. This seems wrong somehow. First, Kerbals ought really to collect experience for each new place they reach as they reach it. They also ought to automatically level up in flight. Not only would this just be clearer to understand and work with, but it would properly reward multi-world missions and missions remounted through stations. - I've mentioned this in regards to science but a nice move might be to differentiate the payouts for different biomes on the same body. The difference needn't be much, 10-50% at most, just enough to make the difference meaningful and encourage players to select landing sites carefully. This could be extended by expanding the world-firsts and Easter-eggs/anomalies into a real system of sites that reward players with rep, funds, science, and/or XP bonuses. I'd personally like to see them made a bit more 'sciency', with mineral formations, geysers, signs of life, etc, but either way giving them real gameplay value could further encourage precision landings and rovers for surface exploration. - Flag planting really ought to be removed from the list of things for which a Kerbal can gain experience. It just ends up being grindy and repetitive in practice. In general, the tasks which will award a kerbal seem a bit finicky. It really could be reduced to Orbit and Landed for each world. When a kerbal was selected in the Astronaut Complex their profile would show a list of each place they had visited with the XP earned for each beside. This way players would have a visual log both of where each crew member had gone, but what they had earned for going there for future reference. If a Kerbal returned to a previously visited body, their landing bonus would only increase if it was in a biome with a higher multiplier. - To balance for this the XP values would need to be reduced. Really a Kerbal who had visited the Mun and Minmus should be at level 2. This might be stretched to level 3 by visiting an asteroid or a few bonus sites. Levels 4 and 5 ought really to require interplanetary missions. - Im sure they plan over time to fill out the upper skill levels. I’ll admit I’d love to see KAS for a level 5 engineer, things like aerocapture and landing site prediction for high level pilots. Im not crazy about the current Mobile Lab setup, but I tend to think higher level scientists should collect more valuable EVA reports and surface samples. It was also suggested that higher level pilots might offer XP bonuses to other crew members, which I like, but would need to be carefully applied to avoid exploits. I haven’t compiled a list of skills, but Im sure others have thoughts on that? - Cosmetically, I'd also love to see different suit colors/stripes/stars indicating a kerbal's discipline and rank. That be neat. What issues have people been having? What fun things do you think kerbals could do?

Though I don't think we need more experiments, I will say the ones we have could use some love. Clicky experiments are probably the biggest thing holding career back at the moment. It also seems to me that people who aren't running tons of mods aren't seeing serious performance issues, so instead of asking for game optimization people aught to be asking for the features they're modding in to become stock (after 64b that is).

You can also just set up with like 6 gigantors. That's what I've done.

I usually play stock and have only toyed around with USI-LS. Do you know if its possible to convert ore to fertilizer? Because that could be a acceptable game mechanic.

It could actually be useful. If they just had a short bit of chatter when they entered a new biome or completed a contract or entered a new SOI it could be a helpful little bit of auditory feedback.

Just a few, - Low-profile adapters, MK3 to 2.5m and 3.75m to 2.5m. - Low dry-weight, low heat and crash tolerance spherical tanks for interplanetary missions, then make fuel switching tweakable. - Hinges, rotors and actuators. - I'm down for the 2-Kerbal pod, what I'd love though is a 6-Kerbal 3.75m to 2.5m pod sloped like the C7 adapters. - A heavier duty set of landing gear. - Habitation and LS would be great, but really require game mechanics that are probably beyond the scope of this thread.

Does the mining rig have to be automated? Im also surprised people are having such performance issues. It must be mods? Im on a 4 year old macbook and stock runs quite nicely, even with several complicated vessels loaded.

What don't you like about stock ISRU?

That's super nice of you to say, but I confess I'm in no position to mod myself. I actually really love the game as is, and I'm sure Squad has both a much broader overview of the game and a keener understanding of the programming hurdles ahead. These are just my armchair thoughts on the subject.

Yeah thats actually really similar to some thoughts I had earlier on experiments. Making experiments useful outside the tech tree so they still have a function after its complete would be huge. I also turned the Science Jr into a sample analyzer, so you have to think carefully about how you collect and route samples to maximize their value. I guess we'll see how things work out with transmissions, but I'd still be happy with making experiments 100% transmittable in principle, and letting the dishes control the actual value.

^Yeah, which seems to me like the problem the OP is having (i.e. running out of rewards too early) is not the problem you or I are having. Its the getting there that's feeling a little dry. There are many ways of playing this game, and I threw out the silly monuments idea for all of those people who are really rewards driven, even if I am not one of them. I have my issues, but I don't think they require a total re-write of the game. It's really just a few incomplete game mechanics: 1) Experiments are too clicky, and don't require anything special of the player besides clicks. 2) The building tiers are a little steep, and could use some extra functions (mission planning especially). 3) Experience feels incomplete and opaque. High tier kerbals need some new abilities and the process of leveling them could be clearer. 4) The planets themselves feel a bit flat. Biomes aught to have varying multipliers and surface features could add special rewards waranting rovers and precision landings. With those things addressed all of a sudden its the experience of playing the game that improves and fussing over tech-tree progression feels much less important, at least to me. In the end its about how a player is spending his or her time while playing, not necessarily how cool or shiny or perfectly placed the rewards are.

Oh you know you want that statue haha My real point is that what the final end-condition reward actually is matters less than what you have to do to get it, or whether you're having fun getting there. Let's be honest, you could grind away for months to get a warp drive and you're going to use it once and stop playing. The rewards could be a series of fab looking habitation modules or arm patches or special decals. In Sim City its the space shuttle and in Skyrim it was getting to call a dragon to fight for you. Their functionality really didn't even matter. What mattered was all the fun you had getting there. What's good about making the ultimate goal visiting and returning from each body in the game is that its a clear, achievable goal that fits the ultimate idea of the game: to build rockets and go places. Its also hard! I mean I've been playing this game for years and I've yet to do a crewed Eeloo mission. The monuments are silly, and intentionally so, because they are merely a symbol. It's what they symbolize that matters. Its there so you can feel proud of what you've done, and maybe show your friends.

So I have a rather simple solution: just give monuments for each world a player has landed on and safely returned from. This could be done right at KSC. Before a player has made orbit the flagpole could be rather modest. After a successful recovery from orbit it would grow bigger and a message would appear from Gene Kerman saying congratulations. (Just so you didn't miss it.) After a Mun mission a pedestal would apear next to the flagpole with a model of the Mun on it and a lifesize golden Kerbal standing on that, with a plaque listing the date and allowing the player to change it's gender and make an inscription. Each new body visited would produce a similar monument, and after every planet and moon was visited a giant golden kerbal would appear in the center holding the flagpole. Visiting each body seems like a reasonable yet ambitious metric for "winning the game" and this way you could take your crew out to take screenshots in front of it.