[WIP] - USI Life Support

[Sigma88]

I'm not one to exploit, in fact before I knew that I could alter the Snacks! cfg and kill them, if my kerbals ran out of snacks I went to the tracking station and terminated their mission. I'm an anti-exploiter, lol.

If what you say about docking is true, then couldn't a large ship have a section that is docked, as many of mine are when constructed in orbit, with clamp-o-tron-Srs? Put the LS supplies in section 2, with cross feed off, let them go dormant, then either turn on cross feed upon reaching the destination, or undock, then redock?

There are many mods that can bypass the lack of crossfeed (TAC_Fuel-Balancer comes to mind) I guess USI_LS can ignore that as well.

You can always undock the food supply after the ejection burn and wait untill you are at destination to dock it back with the kerbals.

I really don't see a reason why someone would go to the trouble of downloading and installing a mod and then do all this complicated stuff to evade the mod...

This will probably remain an exploit that who wants to do will be able to do since the effort it takes is higher than the reward.

This could be a funny thing to watch if someone decide to make a challenge "To Laithe and Back with the least supplies possible" or something like that

[tater]

Yeah, I can see the need to think about it as a stock thing, but as a mod, I'm unsure why anyone would not set it to kill unsupplied kerbals, frankly.

Edited April 10, 2015 by tater

[Sigma88]

Yeah, I can see the need to think about it as a stock thing, but as a mod, I'm unsure why anyone would not set it to kill unsullied kerbals, frankly.

the best mods (to me) are those that are able to remain stock-like.

MKS/OKS is maybe the only exception... and I still think that it could be even better if it had stock-like textures.

and of course kerbals on strike is more in line with stock where kerbals never die*

Other reasons for keeping them alive could be:

1 - If you find a way to greatly increase electric use of kerbals without food you can call it "Hybernation" instead than "Strike"

2 - If you are a casual player and mess up something you can fix it quite easily with a resupply

*explosions are not included

[JumpsterG]

Yeah, I can see the need to think about it as a stock thing, but as a mod, I'm unsure why anyone would not set it to kill unsullied kerbals, frankly.

Well, my go to example has been:

I want to do an Eeloo and back mission, but I have a space station full of kerbals to feed in orbit around Kerbin. If the station is not 100% self-sufficient, that means supply runs are needed (probably a lot of them). With strict death-upon-starvation mechanics, I cannot timewarp through the Eeloo mission without either letting my station kerbals die, or stopping multiple times during the Eeloo mission to spend 15-30 minutes of my playtime doing repetitive supply missions.

All this said, you might say, why bother with Life Support at all? Two reasons:

1) I want the design challenge of bringing enough supplies or a robust life support system on my missions. A ship needs to be able to handle the long trip; opening up fun possibilities like ISRU or sending extra supplies ahead of time.

2) I want to do resupply missions, really! Just not when my attention is on a different project, and certainly not 20 times in a row while I'm waiting for a ship to transfer to Eeloo.

Finally, kerbals not dying opens up more options to the player. If they've gone all the way out to the outer reaches of the solar system and run out of supplies... It might be easier to write them off rather than launch a difficult rescue; but the rescue is an option you wouldn't otherwise have.

[tater]

This is why the game is not a management game at all, IMO. If it was management, I could schedule resupplies, and my staff/astronauts would take care of that if I liked, then I could fly the Eeloo mission, unconcerned about local Kerbin SoI logistics.

I launch such a mission, then do other things, with the resupplies happening as they need to. If I was going to warp all missions to completion as I conceive of them, I think I'd play sandbox or science.

[RoverDude]

I'm in the same boat as krakenfour, I'm playing 64x.

I guess the exploit issue is not a problem for me as I'd have LS failure kill them.

Let me have another crack at this… so the supply canisters contain supplies in 15 day increments? Guys get low, and they reach T -0, then grab 15 more days (each). Then the timer resets? So if a container has 100 supplies, that's 100*15 kerbal-day supplies (so a crew of 4 would have 390 days duration (including the 15 days they get "free" at the start)?

New pods don't reset the timer, though, correct? For example if you rescued a kerbal with a mk1 pod, and the verbal was almost dead, would his timer reset? If so, would moving kerbals from a command pod to a HH give them 15 more days? What about EVA from one pod to another?

No. The supply containers do NOT contain supplies in 15 day increments. More like 15,000 days, 4500 days, and 500 days.

There is nothing magical about a pod - it just has no supplies in it.

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Also, if I remember correctly, using tweakscale you can add a very simple cfg file to make any specific part scaleable and you don't have to bother that much, tweakscale will calculate all the capacity for you. I could be wrong tho.

I'd recommend TweakScale over Seti as Seti is highly opinionated and 'balances' a lot of stuff... so you get that baggage (like changes to Karbonite and other USI mods that pretty much result in all support being void).

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I'm not one to exploit, in fact before I knew that I could alter the Snacks! cfg and kill them, if my kerbals ran out of snacks I went to the tracking station and terminated their mission. I'm an anti-exploiter, lol.

If what you say about docking is true, then couldn't a large ship have a section that is docked, as many of mine are when constructed in orbit, with clamp-o-tron-Srs? Put the LS supplies in section 2, with cross feed off, let them go dormant, then either turn on cross feed upon reaching the destination, or undock, then redock?

That last bit will not work as said Kerbals will immediately break into any locked supplies on the craft that they could not have otherwise consumed once they are unsupplied for fifteen days.

The only circumstance in which they break into locked supplies is, as noted, if they are starved. This is an exploit plug.

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And the reason why death is not a default... choice is good. Also, I like the idea that you can still recover from an 'oops'. you won't be using that ship or those Kerbals, but at least you have a running shot at rescuing them.

[tater]

No, I think for a "stock" solution it is a good design choice (the "oops" aspect).

1+ kerbal-year, 10 kerbal-years, and 30+ kerbal years? What are you assuming the consumables (food/air/water not recovered by standard pod LS) used per day mass wise? About 1-2 kg/day?

[RoverDude]

No, I think for a "stock" solution it is a good design choice (the "oops" aspect).

1+ kerbal-year, 10 kerbal-years, and 30+ kerbal years? What are you assuming the consumables (food/air/water not recovered by standard pod LS) used per day mass wise? About 1-2 kg/day?

1.08 kg per day

[Sigma88]

No. The supply containers do NOT contain supplies in 15 day increments. More like 15,000 days, 4500 days, and 500 days.

There is nothing magical about a pod - it just has no supplies in it.

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I'd recommend TweakScale over Seti as Seti is highly opinionated and 'balances' a lot of stuff... so you get that baggage (like changes to Karbonite and other USI mods that pretty much result in all support being void).

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That last bit will not work as said Kerbals will immediately break into any locked supplies on the craft that they could not have otherwise consumed once they are unsupplied for fifteen days.

The only circumstance in which they break into locked supplies is, as noted, if they are starved. This is an exploit plug.

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And the reason why death is not a default... choice is good. Also, I like the idea that you can still recover from an 'oops'. you won't be using that ship or those Kerbals, but at least you have a running shot at rescuing them.

I think you should also consider the possibility of

not despawning kerbals lost in eva so we can still do 3001 final odissey

[Yemo]

Also, if I remember correctly, using tweakscale you can add a very simple cfg file to make any specific part scaleable and you don't have to bother that much, tweakscale will calculate all the capacity for you. I could be wrong tho.

Yes, but tweakscale does not scale volume and stats (like mass and resource amounts) proportionally. So the higher your tweakscale factor, the more pronounced the difference between volume and mass/resources.

Procedural parts has many issues as well (especially with some tweakscaled parts and collisions), so there is no optimal solution at the moment.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Yemo

[RoverDude]

Yes, but tweakscale does not scale volume and stats (like mass and resource amounts) proportionally. So the higher your tweakscale factor, the more pronounced the difference between volume and mass/resources.

Procedural parts has many issues as well (especially with some tweakscaled parts and collisions), so there is no optimal solution at the moment.

Actually, that can be done if one is industrious. And given SETI is purely configs, I maintain that I'd rather have someone do a single config to make a larger container than use SETI, which does weird stuff to all of my things (like break sample craft, and change behavior with no respect for the original mod, it's design, or it's history).

And given most folks who use this are probably using other USI mods, they may also want support for said mods (which is void when SETI is installed because it changes config values, and as such voids any support expectations).

And on a final note, I'd appreciate if you'd cease using my threads for SETI marketing.

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Also for clarity:

Making new parts to fill gaps, etc. - awesome. Lots of cases of this with many of the mods I run.

Making extensions with new capabilities. Also awesome.

Distributing configs that break my stuff, especially without even a conversation, not so good because it causes me support issues.

Implying my stuff needs 'balancing' because you just don't understand the why's (like the Karbonite 'balances') - Jerky.

(Edit) jerky because of just how much work so many people put into balancing those engines, both against stock and with far. And it is an example of not respecting history and breaking craft.

Edited April 10, 2015 by RoverDude

[Yemo]

Actually, that can be done if one is industrious. And given SETI is purely configs, I maintain that I'd rather have someone do a single config to make a larger container than use SETI, which does weird stuff to all of my things (like break sample craft, and change behavior with no respect for the original mod, it's design, or it's history).

And given most folks who use this are probably using other USI mods, they may also want support for said mods (which is void when SETI is installed because it changes config values, and as such voids any support expectations).

And on a final note, I'd appreciate if you'd cease using my threads for SETI marketing.

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Also for clarity:

Making new parts to fill gaps, etc. - awesome. Lots of cases of this with many of the mods I run.

Making extensions with new capabilities. Also awesome.

Distributing configs that break my stuff, especially without even a conversation, not so good because it causes me support issues.

Implying my stuff needs 'balancing' because you just don't understand the why's (like the Karbonite 'balances') - Jerky.

(Edit) jerky because of just how much work so many people put into balancing those engines, both against stock and with far. And it is an example of not respecting history and breaking craft.

Dude, he was asking for a procedural parts container and I just pointed him to the location where he will find such a config/part...

Is there a procedural container for the new lifesupport resources coming soon?

If procedural parts itself does not support/add one (and they have not even added karbonite), the SETI-BalanceMod in my signature will surely do so.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Yemo

[RoverDude]

Your mod has no such part, now does it?

So no, you pointed him to a mod that does not have what he is looking for, and will in fact result in him getting no support.

[Yemo]

Your mod has no such part, now does it?

So no, you pointed him to a mod that does not have what he is looking for, and will in fact result in him getting no support.

Dude, he was asking for a procedural parts container and I just pointed him to the location where he will find such a config/part...

Is there a procedural container for the new lifesupport resources coming soon?

If procedural parts itself does not support/add one (and they have not even added karbonite), the SETI-BalanceMod in my signature will surely do so.

Please calm down, and reread the conversation.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Yemo

[Svm420]

...void when SETI is installed because it changes config values, and as such voids any support expectations).

As often you type this you should just sig it to save yourself some time. Mod looks nice.

[RoverDude]

I may

[MatterBeam]

Gosh, what have I started? Yes, SETI does ruin a lot of stuff (including my KSPI install), and yes SETI did not have what I was looking for, but it's uncalled for to jump on my question to complain about it in a way that reads 'unprovoked attack' to me. If you strongly feel that SETI is doing you a disservice, put a disclaimer on the front page or something.

[RoverDude]

Well, it is kinda my thread, and the answer Yemo gave was a bad answer (i.e. 'I want an alternate tank' - 'Oh here! Have a mod that breaks stuff, and may in fact have a tank one day!').

I reserve the right to discourage the propagation of bad answers in a thread for a mod that I am making you fine folks for free.

And seriously. If I host a party... and someone brings along a friend that starts trashing the place, changes my music mix, and decides to tear up my carpet because they like hardwood floors better, forgive me if I don't roll out the welcome mat

Edited April 10, 2015 by RoverDude

[J.Random]

When kerbal has munchies, he eats 15 lunches and produces a ton of mulch. Nice.

Judging by the screenshot, supply resource has the xenon-like flow mode, right? So, keeping hungry zombie kerbals away from omnom compartment with flow breakers or hatches locked by CLS isn't an option?

[MatterBeam]

I think I understand the sentiment now.

[RoverDude]

When kerbal has munchies, he eats 15 lunches and produces a ton of mulch. Nice.

Judging by the screenshot, supply resource has the xenon-like flow mode, right? So, keeping hungry zombie kerbals away from omnom compartment with flow breakers or hatches locked by CLS isn't an option?

heh, actually when he has the munchies he east 1.08 kg per day and produces 1.08

But if you lock him out he will eventually just go 'screw it' and smash open the biscuit tins.

And no... this will totally bypass anything that breaks flow So the best thing is just to leave it unlocked, and let them eat normally.

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So the code is all done, it's just in testing.

For launch, I'm going to just let EVA kerbals wander and do their thing - because really, the mod's intent is to give you an out if you make a mistake. Granted, folks will probably EVA kerbals if the cookies are low, but they will be unable to return to their ship (they would never be able to EVA back out), so no repeat flag-plantings

Oh... and I forgot to post this in here:

[Jarin]

Oh god, I hadn't seen the acronym yet. XD

[Serino]

So getting more and more excited as I read this I am left with a question. Will supplies, mulch and organics be transportable with your logistics module, the thing that allows you to send things within the SOI, or will they be locked out like Karborundum is? I can imagine dropping automated bases down that would allow you to just fly over drop the mulch and chill in orbit while organics are made if they are able to be transported with it.

[RoverDude]

No reason why not, it's not game breaking

[Angelo Kerman]

Nice look on the NOMS containers. Very stocklike.