1.1.2 Magic Smoke Industries Infernal Robotics 2.0.2

[Neroziat]

im not sure how to get this done, i read back as far as i could and couldnt figure out the specific workaround. the autostruts keep binding to the pusher and then to themselves. i tried a 4 legged crane with rotating feet with wheels, it looks like someone tied its shoes together

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, Ziw said:

The wheels are struted to heaviest part or grandparent, so if you know that and as @kcs123 mentioned use the auto-strut visualisation, you can design around this limitation while still allowing hinges to move.

Do the wheel autostruts show up if you turn on showing them with the debugging setting?  Do you know how the choice is made for the autostrut destination?  I assume there's a distance limitation too.  Does the autostrut go from the wheel to the grandparent part within that limit unless there's a heavier part with the distance limit?

[Guest]

@Ziw

Tall hinge flipping - how it happens now:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vdlk9uy6nmnffb/screenshot145.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5g9jy3vxhn9lkx5/screenshot146.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/er6u9zquhzeee5q/screenshot147.png?dl=0

This is DropBox links to the screenshots, cannot upload any images in the Imgur.

[Ziw]

8 minutes ago, WildLynx said:

@Ziw

Tall hinge flipping - how it happens now:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vdlk9uy6nmnffb/screenshot145.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5g9jy3vxhn9lkx5/screenshot146.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/er6u9zquhzeee5q/screenshot147.png?dl=0

This is DropBox links to the screenshots, cannot upload any images in the Imgur.

Hmm, does this happen with reworked hinges? I almost never test with legacy parts properly

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Ziw said:

Hmm, does this happen with reworked hinges? I almost never test with legacy parts properly

Never used reworked, because I missed the moment when brand new IR parts become legacy IR parts. Looks like I'm too old.

P.S.

Downloaded Rework from link from your signature and opened an archive. Got horrified by the number of parts. Will try to test them in separate game ... but can classic parts be fixed too?

 

 

 

[Ziw]

Just now, WildLynx said:

Never used reworked, because I missed the moment when brand new IR parts become legacy IR parts. Looks like I'm too old.

P.S.

Downloaded Rework from link from your signature and opened an archive. Got horrified by the number of parts. Will try to test them in separate game ... but can classic parts be fixed too?

 

 

 

It depends on whether the problem is with the parts or with the code.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ziw said:

It depends on whether the problem is with the parts or with the code.

I doubt part's model can be so wrong, that it's looks right in the editor but flipped on the pad. Models not changed, and they never had such behavior before. Also they used to flip in editor on the "Unlock", but now they don't. So it's the module, or config become incompatible with module.

By the way, what is closest equivalent of Tall Hinge in those white-gray-orange parts?

-------------

Joint Pivotron Wide Angle - works ok.

Joint Pivotron Basic - works ok.

Adaptron basic - ok

Foldatron basic and rev - ok, but they do not detect if moving part collided with structural parts on base.

Hinge Pivatron basic - ok, and again - caused clipping on pad instead of stopping.

Switching to craft on LKO and back to the test rig on the pad via map selection DO NOT breaks IR.

There is so many of them ...

So the result? Legacy Tall Hinge needs config update ... or it's something else?

Or ... mark all legacy parts as unresearchable and switch to new ones ... some of them are cute ... until they become legacy too?

PPS

May be it's good idea to create new IR parts group - IR - Static and move there all the static parts from Structural?

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest

[Araym]

Having the same issue of @iamihop, in 2.0.9:

any creation works fine as launched, but resuming an old launched vessel, or reverting at launch blocks any IR to work. (And I already disabled KJR config that bothered IR)

Just passing by, going to test 2.0.10...

[kcs123]

7 minutes ago, WildLynx said:

By the way, what is closest equivalent of Tall Hinge in those white-gray-orange parts?

There is several variants of foldatrons. Try with basic Foldatron first. I think that one have longest "arm".

[kcs123]

This imgur galery shows workaround for wheel autostruting.

Since a lot of people ask how to turn on visualisation of autostrut links I will put first screenshot from galery in this post too. On flight scene open cheat/debug menu with ALT+F12 on windows os or mod key if you are on linux or MAC.

 

I appologize for few more pictures from galery, but I feel that is necessary, despite provided link for full galery.
First thing to keep on mind, like mentioned earlier, is to put some non moving IR part as grandparent part, like on this picture:

However, as shown on picture, when you put wheels in symetry mod, wheels put autostrut to their symetry counterpart too. That create wierd things if you try to move powered hinges.

So, you need to place wheels on craft without symetry. First, I placed wheels in symetry mode. Then, I copied oposite symetry part with ALT + Click. Placed that part to hang in air in SPH editor. After that I placed only left side of wheels without symetry. Next step is to place that copied symetry counterpart without symetry on craft too.

After that, folding of wheels can be done properly:

 

[kcs123]

@Neroziat, thanks for sharing info about that post. Perhaps more permanent solution hides in this:

Quote

I wonder what ModuleWheelBase.CycleWheelStrut()

 

@Ziw, are you already being able to grab some free time to look at those new exposed API methods ? Good thing is that @NathanKell was part of SQUAD team while those autostruts were in development. He was thinking about IR mod even back than:

Quote

yeah I made those methods public so IR can kill the strut, move the joint, and then recreate the strut.

So, instead of calling proper API method each time IR part motion is triggered as more "proper" solution, would be possible to add simple ON/OFF button on IR user interface ? That way user can toggle autostruting on demand.

It would be handy, not only for IR mod, but also workaround of stock bug. When you build larger station or assembly craft modules in orbit, have some wheels onm both crafts and those autostrut themselfs on docking. That is not so bad on docking, but those remain connected even when you try to undock, creating strange kraken forces.

[Ziw]

1 minute ago, kcs123 said:

@Neroziat, thanks for sharing info about that post. Perhaps more permanent solution hides in this:

 

@Ziw, are you already being able to grab some free time to look at those new exposed API methods ? Good thing is that @NathanKell was part of SQUAD team while those autostruts were in development. He was thinking about IR mod even back than:

So, instead of calling proper API method each time IR part motion is triggered as more "proper" solution, would be possible to add simple ON/OFF button on IR user interface ? That way user can toggle autostruting on demand.

It would be handy, not only for IR mod, but also workaround of stock bug. When you build larger station or assembly craft modules in orbit, have some wheels onm both crafts and those autostrut themselfs on docking. That is not so bad on docking, but those remain connected even when you try to undock, creating strange kraken forces.

This no longer works for wheels in 1.2.x, I've checked.

[kcs123]

3 minutes ago, Ziw said:

This no longer works for wheels in 1.2.x, I've checked.

Ahh, that is sad news. At least I found some kind of workaround. Anyhow, thanks for all effort made to keep this mod alive.

[Neroziat]

kcs i followed your method, all wheels were put on one by one

http://imgur.com/a/5LpxB that happened trying to move hinges

http://imgur.com/a/E3QsV what it looks like in vab

what am i doing wrong? its almost the same friggin craft. why did squad have to ruin the game. i hate ksp till i can figure this out, all craft you intend to ever move or land needs wheels/legs.

also i cannot select grandparent part for wheels its locked to heaviest part

do we have to scream and spam to squad to get the ability to use IR again without being handcuffed by autostruts? i see it posted everywhere and squad so far has given customers a big middle finger.

theres even a bug report from 3 months ago where they did just that, gave a middle finger. http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/11999

Edited December 19, 2016 by Neroziat

[kcs123]

1 hour ago, Neroziat said:

kcs i followed your method, all wheels were put on one by one

http://imgur.com/a/5LpxB that happened trying to move hinges

http://imgur.com/a/E3QsV what it looks like in vab

what am i doing wrong? its almost the same friggin craft. why did squad have to ruin the game. i hate ksp till i can figure this out, all craft you intend to ever move or land needs wheels/legs.

also i cannot select grandparent part for wheels its locked to heaviest part

do we have to scream and spam to squad to get the ability to use IR again without being handcuffed by autostruts? i see it posted everywhere and squad so far has given customers a big middle finger.

theres even a bug report from 3 months ago where they did just that, gave a middle finger. http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/11999

You have followed instruction about grandparent part, but you still placed both sides of wheels in symetry mode. You need to place one side at time without symetry mod.Check out whole galery, I wrote info in picture titles/description too.
Also, read those tiny piece of text between pictures in previous post.

In short, put only one side of wheels at time, to prevent autostruting on symetry counterpart. It is a bit harder to create symetrical craft that way, but still possible. Put some other parts in symetry mod to be used as markers and then put without symetry wheels next to it.

You can't change where wheels will autostrut in editor, it will always show heaviest part, but they will autostrut to grandparent part instead of heaviest one, if they were far enough in terms of part path, from heaviest part.

[Ziw]

13 hours ago, WildLynx said:

I doubt part's model can be so wrong, that it's looks right in the editor but flipped on the pad. Models not changed, and they never had such behavior before. Also they used to flip in editor on the "Unlock", but now they don't. So it's the module, or config become incompatible with module.

By the way, what is closest equivalent of Tall Hinge in those white-gray-orange parts?

-------------

Joint Pivotron Wide Angle - works ok.

Joint Pivotron Basic - works ok.

Adaptron basic - ok

Foldatron basic and rev - ok, but they do not detect if moving part collided with structural parts on base.

Hinge Pivatron basic - ok, and again - caused clipping on pad instead of stopping.

Switching to craft on LKO and back to the test rig on the pad via map selection DO NOT breaks IR.

There is so many of them ...

So the result? Legacy Tall Hinge needs config update ... or it's something else?

Or ... mark all legacy parts as unresearchable and switch to new ones ... some of them are cute ... until they become legacy too?

PPS

May be it's good idea to create new IR parts group - IR - Static and move there all the static parts from Structural?

 

Thank you for testing. The self-clipping was always there, there is no way around it unfortunately.

I'll take a look at the config for Legacy hinge, there might be an easy fix. Problem with legacy parts is that the original model files were lost, so we cannot make any changes to the model, only to the config.

11 hours ago, Neroziat said:

kcs i followed your method, all wheels were put on one by one

http://imgur.com/a/5LpxB that happened trying to move hinges

http://imgur.com/a/E3QsV what it looks like in vab

what am i doing wrong? its almost the same friggin craft. why did squad have to ruin the game. i hate ksp till i can figure this out, all craft you intend to ever move or land needs wheels/legs.

also i cannot select grandparent part for wheels its locked to heaviest part

do we have to scream and spam to squad to get the ability to use IR again without being handcuffed by autostruts? i see it posted everywhere and squad so far has given customers a big middle finger.

theres even a bug report from 3 months ago where they did just that, gave a middle finger. http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/11999

Please calm down. Although I don't like the auto-struts as a solution to wheel problem, they were doing their best. And recently the developers are much more mod-friendly and they finally explain things they do and open up parts of the API.

We'll find a workaround, I just dont have much time for KSP anymore. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Ziw said:

Thank you for testing. The self-clipping was always there, there is no way around it unfortunately.

I'll take a look at the config for Legacy hinge, there might be an easy fix. Problem with legacy parts is that the original model files were lost, so we cannot make any changes to the model, only to the config.

...

I really hope, that Tall Hinge can be fixed easily. The alternative is to use Door Hinge, but hey look so clumsy... The rework parts are nice, but they are tailored for Canadarm replicas, and caused Way Too Many Parts alarm in me ...

[Ziw]

1 minute ago, WildLynx said:

I really hope, that Tall Hinge can be fixed easily. The alternative is to use Door Hinge, but hey look so clumsy... The rework parts are nice, but they are tailored for Canadarm replicas, and caused Way Too Many Parts alarm in me ...

I could not find an easy solution so far, the config seems identical, but I'll keep looking. Try this dll version, it fixes one more issue with timewarp someone else found. Can you try the ordinary Hinge?

[Stone Blue]

8 hours ago, Ziw said:

Although I don't like the auto-struts as a solution to wheel problem, they were doing their best. And recently the developers are much more mod-friendly and they finally explain things they do and open up parts of the API.

We'll find a workaround, I just dont have much time for KSP anymore. 

Hmmm... Have you seen this plugin by Shadowmage?... Maybe it could help?
 

 

[Ziw]

5 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Hmmm... Have you seen this plugin by Shadowmage?... Maybe it could help?
 

 

This is very cool, and Shadowmage is a genius, but it does not change the Autostruts for stock wheels as far as I know. But @ZodiusInfuser would be glad to see the alternative for stock wheels, he can use it to revive the Omnidirectional wheels (that were ruined by U5 update).

Edited December 20, 2016 by Ziw

[kcs123]

Yes those new wheel colider looks promissing, without it, stock wheel can only recognize colider that is compleately normal to surface, if one wheel is on slope and other still didn't, one on slope will loose friction like it is in air, while it should be able to have grip.

However, it does not deal with wheel autostruts. It would be realy good if user have ability to turn off wheel autostrut with one button on UI. It will be handy in stock game too, not only with IR mod. While SQUAD do their best to workaround of wheel issues, they were overprotecting users at the same time, being unable to choose autostrut option for wheels. Being overprotective lead to be counterproductive at the end.

[Stone Blue]

Hmmm... Do I remember hearing that KJR CAN be used with IR now?...somehow?

Cuz if so, couldnt autostruts be turned off in the debug menu, then KJR used instead, as a "workaround" for the wheels?

But I know theres a lot of "ifs" included in that ...

EDIT: Well, I mentioned the issue on the KSPWheels thread, and this is Shadowmage's reply... Not sure I explained the issue properly tho
 

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Stone Blue

[kcs123]

44 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Hmmm... Do I remember hearing that KJR CAN be used with IR now?...somehow?

Cuz if so, couldnt autostruts be turned off in the debug menu, then KJR used instead, as a "workaround" for the wheels?

But I know theres a lot of "ifs" included in that ...
EDIT: Well, I mentioned the issue on the KSPWheels thread, and this is Shadowmage's reply... Not sure I explained the issue properly tho
 

 

Info how to use KJR have buried very quickly in this thread, no matter how many times it is repeated:

While it is possible to toggle autostruts for all other parts, if advanced tweakables are turned on trough main menu settings, for wheels it is hard coded in KSP. I guess whenever some part is declared as wheel it will got autostruting, regardless if you want it or not. Until SQUAD provide some options trough API or trough UI, nothing much we can do about it.

I found some kind of workaround of this, posted on previous page, trough specific craft design. Could not help in all situations, though. So it is good to turn on autostrut visualisation to help with craft design, to workaround of issue.

[Stone Blue]

22 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

Info how to use KJR have buried very quickly in this thread, no matter how many times it is repeated

Yes, it does... Maybe when @sirkut pops back in, maybe a good idea to just add the info to the OP?

24 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

for wheels it is hard coded in KSP. Until SQUAD provide some options trough API or trough UI, nothing much we can do about it.

Gotcha... 'K, that explains what he meant

26 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

I found some kind of workaround of this, posted on previous page, trough specific craft design. Could not help in all situations, though. So it is good to turn on autostrut visualisation to help with craft design, to workaround of issue.

Ok... So I guess just one more reason it would be REALLY nice if the new Squad team could get wheels properly addressed and fixed...Probably no sooner than, but hopefully, in 1.3...

[Neroziat]

tried doing one side, like i said i put each of the 8 wheels initially one by one, now after removing a whole side its still binding as far as possible