Ore drilling/fuel refining in 1.0 : a built-in cheat, or not a cheat?

[Torham234]

Roverdude, can you talk a bit about how that works?

Will the drill always overheat, or only in low concentrations? Is that something that can be managed, or just what happens when you're drilling in a bad place? What sort of concentrations result in overheating?

As I understand it, some parts naturally generate a lot of heat. From what I have seen, Nukes and drills overheat quite quickly. Now the heat radiates through the craft and dissapates into the environment. Having lots of parts on/close proximity to the drill will let the heat propagate faster. Also, Roverude mentioned that solar panels act like passive heat radiators(logical enough, given the large surface area). Also I have seen the temperature go down rapidly during the night, so I presume being in full sunlight has an effect on your craft. Also, WinterOwl mentioned that planets and environments have ambient temperature. This would make Eve even more deadly than it ever was...

[SelectHalfling0]

As I understand it, some parts naturally generate a lot of heat. From what I have seen, Nukes and drills overheat quite quickly. Now the heat radiates through the craft and dissapates into the environment. Having lots of parts on/close proximity to the drill will let the heat propagate faster. Also, Roverude mentioned that solar panels act like passive heat radiators(logical enough, given the large surface area). Also I have seen the temperature go down rapidly during the night, so I presume being in full sunlight has an effect on your craft. Also, WinterOwl mentioned that planets and environments have ambient temperature. This would make Eve even more deadly than it ever was...

In response to night mining being faster, maybe that is why the fuel cell exists (albeit it can't generate that much electricity from much fuel, so it might not be efficient).

[lajoswinkler]

I like the idea of asteroids being poor fuel resources, and Eve, being a planet with developed geology, a better one.

What will be with v1.0, I'll see tomorrow.

[megatiger78]

I like the idea of asteroids being poor fuel resources, and Eve, being a planet with developed geology, a better one.

What will be with v1.0, I'll see tomorrow.

well... eve's oceans....

[lajoswinkler]

Eve's oceans could be used as fuel, and breaking down the rock could be used to make the oxidizer, yeah. But just sticking a hose into the ocean, no, thanks. That would be too easy.

So landing near the ocean, where the atmosphere is the densest would be alleviated by the fact you can make your own LF+O, but if you land on a high mountain, then you need less help and you're on your own. I'd be totally ok with that.

[RayneCloud]

You lot are never happy are you? No matter what the devs put in the game, someone has SOMETHING to say about how broken, wrong, or cheaty it is. This is why I've not been on the forums for months on end. Not only has asteroid mining been talked about at length (see here: http://triplehelixblog.com/2015/03/space-gold-the-economic-feasibility-of-asteroid-mining/ and the references) but mining the moon has been a topic of discussion for some time as well,

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Lamar-professor-talks-moon-mining-6178068.php

http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/41676/20150310/moon-mining-company-send-robot.htm

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/197784-china-is-going-to-mine-the-moon-for-helium-3-fusion-fuel

Now, just because it's one part to refine "ore" in to "anything we need" it's now a cheat and unrealistic? It might just be, but do you know what makes a good resources system? Check the tag line for Kethane..

Find It

Mine It

Burn It

That's it. Systems and gameplay to find the resource? Check. Systems and Gameplay to gather the resource? Check. Systems and gameplay to change that resource into usable things? Check. Finally? Systems and play to store the resource and anything that can be made from it. Also check. Find it, mine it, refine it, store it. This is good game design people. A basic enough resource system that adds gameplay and features that many people (myself included) have wanted in the game for a very, very long time.

If you don't want to use this? You don't have to. Use Kethane when it's updated or any mods that add or change the system when it goes live. Problem solved. But I for one plan to use this system and I congratulate RD on a great, simple, system that adds plenty of content and game-play options.

[Fel]

You lot are never happy are you? No matter what the devs put in the game, someone has SOMETHING to say about how broken, wrong, or cheaty it is. This is why I've not been on the forums for months on end. Not only has asteroid mining been talked about at length (see here: http://triplehelixblog.com/2015/03/space-gold-the-economic-feasibility-of-asteroid-mining/ and the references) but mining the moon has been a topic of discussion for some time as well,

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Lamar-professor-talks-moon-mining-6178068.php

http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/41676/20150310/moon-mining-company-send-robot.htm

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/197784-china-is-going-to-mine-the-moon-for-helium-3-fusion-fuel

Now, just because it's one part to refine "ore" in to "anything we need" it's now a cheat and unrealistic? It might just be, but do you know what makes a good resources system? Check the tag line for Kethane..

Find It

Mine It

Burn It

That's it. Systems and gameplay to find the resource? Check. Systems and Gameplay to gather the resource? Check. Systems and gameplay to change that resource into usable things? Check. Finally? Systems and play to store the resource and anything that can be made from it. Also check. Find it, mine it, refine it, store it. This is good game design people. A basic enough resource system that adds gameplay and features that many people (myself included) have wanted in the game for a very, very long time.

If you don't want to use this? You don't have to. Use Kethane when it's updated or any mods that add or change the system when it goes live. Problem solved. But I for one plan to use this system and I congratulate RD on a great, simple, system that adds plenty of content and game-play options.

Talking about something and doing are two completely different things

Reality and Gameplay are two completely different things

Besides, this is an implementation loosely based on reality with significant gameplay effects. Why don't we implement Real Solar System, it's been talked about for months how the sun simply cannot be as small as it is and undergo nuclear fusion.

Because Real Solar System has significant changes in gameplay and people would complain about gameplay balancing JUST LIKE they're complaining now.

[Eric S]

Perhaps soil for growing food, or building shelters, but bulk propellant isn't on the table.

Actually, it is. The "one drill, one converter for all environments" system we've got in 1.0 isn't realistic, but as others have pointed out, NASA's already planning and proposing missions that test or even use ISRU for fuel-related purposes. It's a simplification, but much of this game is a simplification already.

[regex]

it's been talked about for months years how the sun simply cannot be as small as it is and undergo nuclear fusion.

FTFY, you're welcome.

[TheMoonRover]

Is it a cheat? That rather depends on how you define cheating.

From what we know, the resource mining fits the style of the game: pretty realistic, slightly ahead of our own technology, with some simplification to make the game more enjoyable (ie a game). Assuming the system is balanced, then I see no reason for this to be considered an exploit any more than any other feature.

Is using a stock feature available for use by any player cheating? Of course not.

Is exploiting glitches in the game cheating? I would say generally not, although sometimes it could be.

Is using the debug menu cheats (essentially the same as cheat codes) cheating? I would say yes, although arguably it might not be. It all depends of the exact circumstances and what you're trying to do.

But of course you can make your own rules, for example not using resource mining, or the nuclear or ion engines if you consider them exploitative. Or other rules to give yourself extra challenge. By breaking your own rules, you cheat yourself, but not the game.

[Red Iron Crown]

I'm gonna go with my standard response to any "is it cheating" question:

Nobody cares.

Unless you're doing a challenge with specified rules, no one cares how you do or don't play your game. If doing something feels cheaty to you, don't do it.

As for resources/ISRU, I'll be using them as it doesn't feel cheaty to me. Lugging out the parts required to find, harvest and refine the resource is a good balance against the free fuel, and it's a great late game mechanic to allow more complex and longer lasting missions.

[Gerandar]

"I disagree with this feature so it must be cheating!" some people.....

[Linear]

I'm gonna go with my standard response to any "is it cheating" question:

Nobody cares.

Unless you're doing a challenge with specified rules, no one cares how you do or don't play your game. If doing something feels cheaty to you, don't do it.

As for resources/ISRU, I'll be using them as it doesn't feel cheaty to me. Lugging out the parts required to find, harvest and refine the resource is a good balance against the free fuel, and it's a great late game mechanic to allow more complex and longer lasting missions.

If nobody cares would there be a 14-page-long thread on it?

You say 'nobody cares' and then give a direct opinion to the discussion...

[EndOfTheEarth]

Just like the SLS parts, it would be fair to assume that mining equipment is endgame equipment. Yes, starting off with mining equpment will always be easier, just as starting off with SLS engines and tanks will always be easier orbit access than the Orange tank and Mainsail.

And if you're always in sandbox (like I usually am), then you're already "cheating" by giving yourself infinite resources and funds, so who cares?

[Fel]

This thread is giving me a headache... I want people to DISCUSS the problems, not bicker about who is more right than wrong.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/116633-Balancing-Resource-Mining?p=1861489#post1861489

I opened this in hopes of actual discussion because this is 14 pages of some people making good remarks, and a lot of people putting each other down.

[Red Iron Crown]

If nobody cares would there be a 14-page-long thread on it?

You say 'nobody cares' and then give a direct opinion to the discussion...

It seems to be more a discussion of whether anything can be cheating in KSP rather than whether resource use itself is. Say anything is cheating and you'll get a long, long thread about it.

As for sharing my opinion on it, well maybe no one cares.

[m4v]

meh, cheating is the wrong way of saying it, the better way would be saying that resources might be unbalanced. We know there are unbalanced and overpowered things in the game, like the 48-7s engine and the outsourced R&D strategy. Resources could be just one more of them.

[TimePeriod]

Its an option.

You are not forced-by-hand to use the drilling/refining option.

Its not cheating, you are not in a multiplayer game nor a competition of skill.*

Its a video game about little green (wo)men flying spacecrafts.

*If you do find yourself in a competition of skill, in any kind of multiplayer and cheat, shame on you.

[Renegrade]

As for sharing my opinion on it, well maybe no one cares.

Sharing your opinion is cheating!!! 50 funds cheating fine!!

meh, cheating is the wrong way of saying it, the better way would be saying that resources might be unbalanced. We know there are unbalanced and overpowered things in the game, like the 48-7s engine and the outsourced R&D strategy. Resources could be just one more of them.

EXACTLY. Also, we'll have to see how it plays before determining if it's unbalanced or not...

[Scotius]

I'm watching DasValdez playing with resources right now. Guys - it requires metric **** ton of power AND OVERHEATS YOUR ENTIRE SHIP! And overheated parts efficiency drops like a stone. Heat management is a huge thing with resources now. It's not cheating - it's a serious engineering challenge to build a ship that can mine and refine ore with decent efficiency.

P.S. And engineers! You need engineers on board to drill efficiently and manage your heat flux. THIS. IS. AWESOME!!!

[Torham234]

Thinking about the ton of info at the stream atm, I think we can manufacture our own heatsinks from for example the structural metal plates. They are mostly just solid iron and large surface area. Harvester just said that heat respects conductivity, so a rack of metal plates should work very well for cooling ...

[RayneCloud]

I'm watching DasValdez playing with resources right now. Guys - it requires metric **** ton of power AND OVERHEATS YOUR ENTIRE SHIP! And overheated parts efficiency drops like a stone. Heat management is a huge thing with resources now. It's not cheating - it's a serious engineering challenge to build a ship that can mine and refine ore with decent efficiency.

P.S. And engineers! You need engineers on board to drill efficiently and manage your heat flux. THIS. IS. AWESOME!!!

Exactly! All you need is the basics of rules and systems. With heat management, and electrical issues...these mining vessels become massive engineering challenges. I love it!

[Gerandar]

I'm watching DasValdez playing with resources right now. Guys - it requires metric **** ton of power AND OVERHEATS YOUR ENTIRE SHIP! And overheated parts efficiency drops like a stone. Heat management is a huge thing with resources now. It's not cheating - it's a serious engineering challenge to build a ship that can mine and refine ore with decent efficiency.

P.S. And engineers! You need engineers on board to drill efficiently and manage your heat flux. THIS. IS. AWESOME!!!

who cares about efficiency when I can just timewarp and let them get .0001 fuel for 6 years?

[Torham234]

who cares about efficiency when I can just timewarp and let them get .0001 fuel for 6 years?

Really? Is that the best use of time you can think of?

[RayneCloud]

Not to mention the scanning is awesome...