Is it the end for laythe roundtrip SSTOs?

[panzer1b]

Well as the title says, as much as im anticipating teh new aero and more plausible jets, one question came to mind, on whether the new "nerfs" will kill off laythe roundtrip or even farther SSTO builds? Before a properly built craft could EASILY get to above 100km AP on nothing but jets alone, allowing use of efficient nukes and or ions to circularize and go to somewhere far off.

While i have no hard evidence pointing one way or another, im really worried that all my super long range SSTOs are going to be killed off, and my best invention, SSTO to eeloo with landing capability (couldnt quite make it back home as too little fuel, although i did make a ion one that couldnt land but would make eeloo, get in orbit, and THEN return to kerbin after visiting laythe using a few grav assists and aerobraking at jool) will most likely be gone for good!

[Superfluous J]

The short answer is we have no way of knowing until tomorrow.

The longer answer ends with "probably."

[Van Disaster]

What? can easily do it in FAR, so presumably given new stock looks more forgiving I can't see the problem. I got as close to orbit in Laythe as you can get on jets ( was about 5 mins in atmo and that was only 500m down or so ) in FAR. Admittedly that took several hours but it was good to do it.

The whole thing isn't remotely a good idea in the first place, but that doesn't mean it can't be done

[Crzyrndm]

The longer answer ends with "hopefully."

^^ Jet nerfs

No that it will prevent long range spaceplanes from being built

[panzer1b]

^^ Jet nerfs

No that it will prevent long range spaceplanes from being built

I sure hope it wont ruin my 6K dV, 9.5t microfighter that is just incredibly good range. That thing is the best engineering AKSTechnologies ever made, id HATE to see it die off!

[juanml82]

We'll have to see, but on the bright side, LV-Ns only use fuel now, so it might be possible to have a bunch of rapiers to climb to 15,000 meters, switch them to rockets to kick the Ap out of the atmosphere and continue with nuclear engines.

But I've never made an SST Laythe anyway - the way I tested in the SPH meant using ions and I don't stand the long burn times.

[panzer1b]

We'll have to see, but on the bright side, LV-Ns only use fuel now, so it might be possible to have a bunch of rapiers to climb to 15,000 meters, switch them to rockets to kick the Ap out of the atmosphere and continue with nuclear engines.

But I've never made an SST Laythe anyway - the way I tested in the SPH meant using ions and I don't stand the long burn times.

My ion craft (the one i described above) has 30kn of thrust and weighs 10t, that is no worse then your average nuke powered ship. Its TWR is like 0.3 on kerbin, which is quite high imo for a ship of the class. as for nukes using nothing but LF, im actually happy about that, now i can jam as much LF as i want into a pure jet nuke SSTO and pretty much ditch oxy entirely (well ill bring a little for vernors). Actually if nukes really nolonger use Oxy, this is prolly the best rebalance they made, given that now i get to just cram one fuel type.

RIP lfo rockets........its the age of the nuclear jet SSTOs! (and a few ions ones too as u aint getting 6K dV out of a 10t craft with a nuke)

[GoSlash27]

I'm personally hoping they've nerfed the bejeezus out of the turbojet engines. Orbital velocity on jet power alone is super- unrealistic and it broke the game balance.

I don't mean to seem uncaring about it; my entire launch fleet was turbojet SSTOs.

Sorry,

-Slashy

[Radam]

We'll have to see, but on the bright side, LV-Ns only use fuel now, so it might be possible to have a bunch of rapiers to climb to 15,000 meters, switch them to rockets to kick the Ap out of the atmosphere and continue with nuclear engines.

But I've never made an SST Laythe anyway - the way I tested in the SPH meant using ions and I don't stand the long burn times.

LV-Ns are also heavier now, 3t supposedly.

[Norcalplanner]

With turbojets and LV-Ns, all you'd need to carry is LF.

[Maukse]

How sad... I just begun making efficient turbo-lvn ssto....

Based on real turbojet, we still could possibly reach 900m/s @20 000m altitude ?

[GoSlash27]

How sad... I just begun making efficient turbo-lvn ssto....

Based on real turbojet, we still could possibly reach 900m/s @20 000m altitude ?

We'll have to see. It depends on how heavily they've nerfed the turbojet (assuming they nerfed it at all).

The demo videos showed them exceeding that velocity at sea level before exploding.

Best,

-Slashy

[Maukse]

Mmm we'll see. Maybe we will still be able to make sst(lk)o for crew transfer to orbital station - at least, I hope so. Better would be crew transfer/refueling on Munar/Minmus orbit, with ISRU. Wait & see.

I have a question about isru refueling on Munar orbit &interplanetory travel, but with 1.0 coming soon (so soon !), I'm a bit shy about creating a new thread for it.

[Streetwind]

Yeah, watching the KSPTV yesterday stream, if anything at all then turbojets got way, way more powerful.

Not because the parts were buffed or anything, but because the atmosphere now simply offers so little resistance to properly aerodynamically shaped objects that the stats they have get so much more work done. Scott Manley for instance loaded one of the premade stock craft, replaced the basic jets with turbojets, pressed launch, and went to mach 1 before reaching the end of the runway. At 1 kilometer altitude (and a scant 2 km distance from the shoreline) he was already at mach 3 and still accelerating when the plane exploded from burning itself to red-hot slag. The whole thing didn't even take 30 seconds from launch.

You will have no problems, none at all whatsoever, to accelerate to near orbital velocities with planes. In fact, with lift now increasing properly with speed (under the old aero it increased less than it should) and lifting body effects from the fuselages you will be able to get away with less wing area for high altitude flight, allowing you to find the best regime for accelerating in level flight even more comfortably while staying away from atmospheric densities generating too much heat.

[Maukse]

So you can get full power out of a turbojet on sealevel due to less drag. That's ok.

But with new aero, what about intake air @20 000m ?

[LordFjord]

The question is: is it possible/viable to build a spaceplane that runs on only turbojets and nukes.

If yes, then Laythe roundtrips might be possible (unless you aerobreake too hard @Jool or @Laythe).

I will certainly try The last things I've done in KSP 0.90 were longrange spaceplanes. Even though I never attempted that journey ( effective interplanetary travel isn't my strong skill ), the planes I've built were certainly capable of doing so.

Roughly half a day to go, then we will know.

[Crzyrndm]

Yeah, watching the KSPTV yesterday stream, if anything at all then turbojets got way, way more powerful. Not because the parts were buffed or anything, ... At 1 kilometer altitude (and a scant 2 km distance from the shoreline) he was already at mach 3 and still accelerating when the plane exploded from burning itself to red-hot slag.

There's more to this than just the reduced drag. Before it exploded that turbojet was outputting 400kN and climbing rapidly (that was @ 800m/s, more than 10s before explosions). Something else is going on... (I doubt Squad straight out buffed turbo's...)

Edited April 27, 2015 by Crzyrndm

[Red Iron Crown]

ISRU changes things a bit, too. If you can get to Laythe in a single stage with the gear to refuel, it should be easy to return.

[GoSlash27]

Yeah, watching the KSPTV yesterday stream, if anything at all then turbojets got way, way more powerful.

Not because the parts were buffed or anything, but because the atmosphere now simply offers so little resistance to properly aerodynamically shaped objects that the stats they have get so much more work done. Scott Manley for instance loaded one of the premade stock craft, replaced the basic jets with turbojets, pressed launch, and went to mach 1 before reaching the end of the runway. At 1 kilometer altitude (and a scant 2 km distance from the shoreline) he was already at mach 3 and still accelerating when the plane exploded from burning itself to red-hot slag. The whole thing didn't even take 30 seconds from launch.

You will have no problems, none at all whatsoever, to accelerate to near orbital velocities with planes. In fact, with lift now increasing properly with speed (under the old aero it increased less than it should) and lifting body effects from the fuselages you will be able to get away with less wing area for high altitude flight, allowing you to find the best regime for accelerating in level flight even more comfortably while staying away from atmospheric densities generating too much heat.

... But we don't know what the top speed of the turbojet is. I'm sure we'll get this answered today.

Best,

-Slashy

[Starhawk]

... But we don't know what the top speed of the turbojet is. I'm sure we'll get this answered today.

That's exactly the point.

Slash, will you still build lots of SSTO's if the turbojet has been heavily nerfed, or will you build more rockets?

Happy landings!

[waterlubber]

I'm switching to rockets. I finished building my first Laythe SSTO and I'm not rebuilding it.

[MKI]

Well as the title says, as much as im anticipating teh new aero and more plausible jets, one question came to mind, on whether the new "nerfs" will kill off laythe roundtrip or even farther SSTO builds? Before a properly built craft could EASILY get to above 100km AP on nothing but jets alone, allowing use of efficient nukes and or ions to circularize and go to somewhere far off.

While i have no hard evidence pointing one way or another, im really worried that all my super long range SSTOs are going to be killed off, and my best invention, SSTO to eeloo with landing capability (couldnt quite make it back home as too little fuel, although i did make a ion one that couldnt land but would make eeloo, get in orbit, and THEN return to kerbin after visiting laythe using a few grav assists and aerobraking at jool) will most likely be gone for good!

So far I haven't seen anything that stops air hogging. There is also the cooler parts that Im not sure do anything different, and resource mining which could make a lot of round trips much easier, even if you were to consider it cheating for a true SSTO build.

[juanml82]

There's more to this than just the reduced drag. Before it exploded that turbojet was outputting 400kN and climbing rapidly (that was @ 800m/s, more than 10s before explosions). Something else is going on... (I doubt Squad straight out buffed turbo's...)

Apparently they've changed the name to ram jets. I haven't seen that particular Scott Manley video, but I've seen another of a plane with one regular jet and two of the old turbojets. Maybe they behave like ramjets and produce very little thrust below match 0.5?

[Mister Dilsby]

I'm personally hoping they've nerfed the bejeezus out of the turbojet engines. Orbital velocity on jet power alone is super- unrealistic and it broke the game balance.

Agreed--based on the info so far I think they did not nerf the engines themselves so much as threw in some consequences (like heat) for going to orbital velocity within atmosphere. The balance (or lack thereof) in 1.0 will be all about how intakes perform. They should heat up faster than other parts at high mach because of the work they do--literal work, compressing the air for the engines (since there is not a separate "compressor" part) That, plus an aerodynamic model that prohibits unrealistic airhogging, would give a realistic challenge to SSTOs while still allowing the fun of ridiculously dangerous high-speed aircraft at low altitude

[John FX]

If it works like FAR then a laythe SSTO is perfectly possible. You may have to switch to a rocket engine slightly earlier is all. From the comments maybe not even that.

I can imagine the jets being made totally OP as we have lots of shiny spaceplane parts and someone in SQUAD will want them to work just like before...