[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Kobymaru]

15 minutes ago, Sir_Robert said:

This mod seems exactly what I am looking for. I've always wanted the feel of life support, without the punishing 'one mistake and your Kerbals are dead'.

After toying around, I do however have 1 request. Is there a list of how much supplies a Kerbal consumes per day? My initial toying around told me Jeb eats 16,2 a day, is that universal? And if it is, could you list this number on the life support parts in the VAB? It would take some initial guess work, or trying to remember the numbers, out of the construction

Click on the green Cube in the VAB, the total supply time is listed there. Note that with recyclers ("Start Life Support" in the Mobile Processing Lab) this number drops down to about 5.

If you click on the green cube in flight, the current consumption is listed as well.

[Sir_Robert]

33 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

Click on the green Cube in the VAB, the total supply time is listed there. Note that with recyclers ("Start Life Support" in the Mobile Processing Lab) this number drops down to about 5.

If you click on the green cube in flight, the current consumption is listed as well.

That is amazing, I can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

Ok follow up question: What exactly is habitation? I assume it has something to do with USI mods, but I must have looked over it. Same thing for wear and replacement parts. If someone could point me in the right direction, I'd be very grateful

[goldenpsp]

18 minutes ago, Sir_Robert said:

That is amazing, I can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

Ok follow up question: What exactly is habitation? I assume it has something to do with USI mods, but I must have looked over it. Same thing for wear and replacement parts. If someone could point me in the right direction, I'd be very grateful

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/105202-105-usi-life-support-036-bug-fix-update/&do=findComment&comment=2360975

Edited February 9, 2016 by goldenpsp

[Fraz86]

5 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

It seems that when the Recyclers are enabled, they produce "Wear" (consume ReplacementParts), that reduces the vessels maximum habitation time which in turn reduces the kerbals current habitation time, faster than the game time.

I'm not sure if the Wear produced by the Recyclers is a feature (why would recycling cause wear on the parts?).

It bothers me that Recyclers consume ReplacementParts even when ReplacementParts consumption is otherwise disabled (i.e., when "ReplacementPartAmount = 0," as in the default settings for USI-LS). Not only does this result in faster-than-expected depletion of habitation time, as you observed, but it also means that Recyclers will eventually deplete all available ReplacementParts and stop working.

@RoverDude I believe there's a way to set the Recyclers' ReplacementParts consumption based on ReplacementPartAmount. "Ratio = #$@LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS/ReplacementPartAmount$" ought to work. Add another line that reads "@Ratio *= 10" if you want "ReplacementPartAmount = 0.000001" to correspond to a Recycler consumption rate of 0.00001 (the current rate).

[goldenpsp]

15 minutes ago, Fraz86 said:

It bothers me that Recyclers consume ReplacementParts even when ReplacementParts consumption is otherwise disabled (i.e., when "ReplacementPartAmount = 0," as in the default settings for USI-LS). Not only does this result in faster-than-expected depletion of habitation time, as you observed, but it also means that Recyclers will eventually deplete all available ReplacementParts and stop working.

@RoverDude I believe there's a way to set the Recyclers' ReplacementParts consumption based on ReplacementPartAmount. "Ratio = #$@LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS/ReplacementPartAmount$" ought to work. Add another line that reads "@Ratio *= 10" if you want "ReplacementPartAmount = 0.000001" to correspond to a Recycler consumption rate of 0.00001 (the current rate).

Are you using other USI mods, like MKS or MKS-L?  if so did you verify the settings for USI-LS in those mods?  they may be overriding the USI-LS defaults.

[Fraz86]

3 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Are you using other USI mods, like MKS or MKS-L?  if so did you verify the settings for USI-LS in those mods?  they may be overriding the USI-LS defaults.

No, I am not using any other USI mods. Regardless, I don't think the USI-LS settings have any impact on Recycler ReplacementParts consumption (it's simply an INPUT_RESOURCE for the recycler module).

[RoverDude]

I've actually yanked replacementparts from the recyclers as these are already consumed as part of life support itself

[Andem]

Props to you, @RoverDude, for using the power of math (or google) to find out how long in seconds it takes someone to starve to death. Good job! 

--EDIT--

Ok, I have an issue... The Kerbal in my test ship is not using any supplies. I modified some of the settings to make (nearly) everything lethal, and I probably broke it. Here's the settings:

LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS
{
	SupplyTime = 324000			//How many seconds before Kerbals are affected by no supplies
	EVATime = 21600				//How many seconds before ill effects on EVA
	ECAmount = 0.01				//EC per Kerbal per second						
	SupplyAmount = 1.0	//Supplies consumed per Kerbal per second
	WasteAmount = 0.00075		//Mulch produced per Kerbal per second
	NoSupplyEffect = 5			//Effect if a Kerbal has no supplies or EC
	NoSupplyEffectVets = 5		//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and has no supplies or EC
	EVAEffect = 5				//Effect if a Kerbal exceeds EVA time		
	EVAEffectVets = 5			//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and exceeds EVA time
	NoHomeEffect = 0			//Effect if a Kerbal becomes homesick
	NoHomeEffectVets = 0		//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and becomes homesick
	HabMultiplier = 0			//Bonus to hab values (1 = default = 100% of the part's rated value)
	HomeWorldAltitude = 25000	//Altitude on Kerbin that negative effects are removed
	BaseHabTime = 1				//How long can 1 crew capacity support 1 Kerbal, expressed in Kerbal Months
	ReplacementPartAmount = 0	//How fast life support equipment and habs 'wears out'
	HabRange = 150				//How close we need to be to use other vessel's habitation modules and recyclers.
	EnableRecyclers = true		//Use resource recyclers?  Not the same as resource converteres like greenhouses!
	VetNames = Jebediah,Valentina,Bill,Bob	
}

//  SIDE EFFECTS:
// 
//  0 = No Effect (The feature is effectively turned off
//  1 = Grouchy (they become a Tourist until rescued)
//  2 = Mutinous (A tourist, but destroys a part of a nearby vessel...)
//  3 = Instantly 'wander' back to the KSC - don't ask us how!
//  4 = M.I.A. (will eventually respawn)
//  5 = K.I.A. 

--EDIT--

Is there a better place where I can get some support?

Edited February 11, 2016 by Andem

[Perry Apsis]

18 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Well, for starters, i would suggest updating, because you are running an ancient version. The current one is 0.3.11

 

Thanks, Kobymaru. That version was added by CKAN, either as a recommendation or dependency, and it doesn't show up as upgradeable. Maybe I'll remove it and re-add it and see what happens.

----------------------------------------------------------

Okay, nothing that has just happened has made any sense at all. I think CKAN is gaslighting me. I had to get quite stern with it. It took several tries, but I think I succeeded in removing and reinstalling MKS-L and USI-LS and related dependencies. I went in and changed the NoSuppliesEffectVets and NoHomeEffectVets to zero in both the LifeSupport and MKS-Lite! dirs, but Bob and Val were both still behaving like tourists.

It occurred to me to look through persistent.sfs and do some editing there (ProTip: Don't save a copy before editing. It's much more fun trying to recover from a botched edit.) Some three hours later, and my crew is back on the job.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Perry Apsis

[Alinor]

I have made number of changes to Resources.cfg, specifically reducing the cost of supplies.

Today I updated the USI LS addon and installed USI Kolonization package. I am not sure which one had this effect, but changes I make in resources.cfg in UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport folder do not seem to have any effect on price of supplies.

If fact I deleted the resources.cfg and was able to boot the game(after initial crash) and cost of supplies is still 15 per unit. This tells me, there is another file in USI package that governs these settings.

Cost of supplies at default 15 makes career mode unbearably difficult for me, and many contracts come out as financial loss. It's hard to deal with 900k price-tag for just for supplies during 3 year mission, when multiple launch vehicles for the entire mission only cost 400k.

I greatly appropriate any help,

Solution

After looking around in USI folder I found that Kolonization addon has its own resources settings that take precedence over life support. File is located at UmbraSpaceIndustries/Kolonization/MKS_Resources.cfg

Edited February 10, 2016 by Alinor
Found solution

[goldenpsp]

2 hours ago, Perry Apsis said:

Thanks, Kobymaru. That version was added by CKAN, either as a recommendation or dependency, and it doesn't show up as upgradeable. Maybe I'll remove it and re-add it and see what happens.

 

Yea the important part at the moment is to not rely on CKAN.  It is not reliable especially in terms of Roverdudes USI mods at the moment.

[ThaZeus]

Few Questions:

• What is the point of the recycler in the stock mobile processing lab? It takes electric charge and  replacement parts but gives nothing back!
• What is the point of the replacement parts?
• What is this "Habitation" I hear people mention? and where can i figure out the habitation of something?

 

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by ThaZeus

[goldenpsp]

3 minutes ago, ThaZeus said:

Few Questions:

• What is the point of the recycler in the stock mobile processing lab? It takes electric charge and  replacement parts but gives nothing back!
• What is the point of the replacement parts?
• What is this "Habitation" I hear people mention? and where can i figure out the habitation of something?

 

 

Recyclers reduced supply consumption

 

 

[ThaZeus]

On 1/14/2016 at 9:07 PM, RoverDude said:

So let's talk about the hab changes since they are coming in pretty soon (to varying definitions of soon - I have to get all of my other mods in sync first).

To start, the out of the box settings are not going to have the hab-effects enabled, though using MKS-Lite or UKS will turn these on, since this is one of those features that's really meant to add to the immersion for those mods (but at the same time, I recognize that many folks use USI-LS without MKS an don't want to kill their Kerbals off).

The configs will be sorted in such a way that they pick the most pessimistic values (that way I can have a gentle default USI-LS config, but crank things up with MKS-Lite and UKS without depending on the player to change settings one way or the other).

There are a few new concepts to work through, so I figured I'd cover those now then we can go from there.

The first is the idea of a hab module's usable time - this just represents how long a Kerbal will tolerate being cooped up in it.  A Mark 1 pod is only good for 20 Kerbal days (as a point of reference, Gemini 7 was in orbit for nearly 14 days and was some seriously cramped quarters).  So having more space - either in the form of less crew than crew capacity, or in purpose-built hab modules - can extend this.  Furthermore, some modules serve as 'extenders', making other hab modules more effective (the MKS Kerbitat is an example of this).

We also track a few things - how long you've been in your current vessel, when you were last on Kerbin, and the most comfortable hab you've been in.  We then compare two things - have you been in your current vessel for too long (i.e. have exceeded it's hab value compared to your time in vessel), and have you been away from Kerbin too long (by looking at your Kerbin time and your best historic hab time).  This lets us do scenarios like having crew in a nice multi-year base still have issues if they go gallivanting off in a rover for too long (and justifies the Karibou's emergency shelters).  It also lets you set up nice R&R stations that you can rotate larger crews through to bump up the time before they get homesick.  At the same time, it prevents players from 'resetting the clock' by just hopping in and out of a base.

Lastly, and more critically, is the idea that all of this stuff wears out.  A rigid shell will last longer than a flimsy temporary structure.  Rips and tears happen, and equipment wears out.  So over time, even though a base might be rated for several years, if you keep pushing new crew into it over decades, it's effectiveness is going to degrade over time.  Fortunately, there will be mechanics for using MaterialKits to 'patch up' your old bases and extend their life.  From a gameplay standpoint, this lets the player get away with lighter inflatables for temporary bases, while having the option of investing in heavier components and infrastructure for more permanent installations (which goes hand in hand with how MKS has always worked).

As always, feel free to post questions

P.S. - Not sure if the big recycler changes will make it in since those require more parts to be built and modeled - we'll see

 

So how do we find out the habitation of a ship?

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by ThaZeus
Wrong word!

[loki130]

11 minutes ago, ThaZeus said:

So how do we find out the habitation of a ship?

 

The USI life support window--the little green cube on the toolbar--should show the habitation time.

[Whovian41110]

When I have K&K Planetary Base mod the tanks disappear and I'm left with the system from that mod.  How do I get these containers back?

[ThaZeus]

1 hour ago, Whovian41110 said:

When I have K&K Planetary Base mod the tanks disappear and I'm left with the system from that mod.  How do I get these containers back?

I also have K&K installed but i have no problems. Go to advanced mode of the parts menu and click "manufacturers" Umbrella Space Industry should be the top one! (If not find it, it should be in there somewhere)

[Andem]

Can anyone tell me what hab: indefinite means? I'm getting quite frustrated here .

--EDIT--

Never mind. I'm just getting so p*ss*d trying to troubleshoot with 10 minute load times per restart that I just can't anymore.

--EDIT--

Ok, I'm fine, I'm over my tantrum, can somebody please tell me how I can modify the settings in a more lethal way and actually explain clearly what any of this actually means?

Edited February 11, 2016 by Andem

[goldenpsp]

1 hour ago, Andem said:

Can anyone tell me what hab: indefinite means? I'm getting quite frustrated here .

--EDIT--

Never mind. I'm just getting so p*ss*d trying to troubleshoot with 10 minute load times per restart that I just can't anymore.

--EDIT--

Ok, I'm fine, I'm over my tantrum, can somebody please tell me how I can modify the settings in a more lethal way and actually explain clearly what any of this actually means?

Some specifics might help.  The settings file is extremely well commented.  According to your file above you have lethality turned on, Habitation turned off (probably why hab says indefinite).  The only issue I see is you have supplies set to 1/sec, which means each kerbal is going to consume 21,600 supplies per day, which is a lot.  What specifically are you not clear on?

[Andem]

1 minute ago, goldenpsp said:

Some specifics might help.  The settings file is extremely well commented.  According to your file above you have lethality turned on, Habitation turned off (probably why hab says indefinite).  The only issue I see is you have supplies set to 1/sec, which means each kerbal is going to consume 21,600 supplies per day, which is a lot.  What specifically are you not clear on?

Well, I think I figured out one of my issues which I am about to test, If I still have my issue I will let you know, thanks.

[Andem]

@goldenpsp Take a look at this:

LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS
{
	SupplyTime = 324000			//How many seconds before Kerbals are affected by no supplies
	EVATime = 21600				//How many seconds before ill effects on EVA
	ECAmount = 0.01				//EC per Kerbal per second						
	SupplyAmount = 0.00075		//Supplies consumed per Kerbal per second
	WasteAmount = 0.00075		//Mulch produced per Kerbal per second
	NoSupplyEffect = 5			//Effect if a Kerbal has no supplies or EC
	NoSupplyEffectVets = 5		//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and has no supplies or EC
	EVAEffect = 5				//Effect if a Kerbal exceeds EVA time		
	EVAEffectVets = 5			//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and exceeds EVA time
	NoHomeEffect = 0			//Effect if a Kerbal becomes homesick
	NoHomeEffectVets = 0		//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and becomes homesick
	HabMultiplier = 5			//Bonus to hab values (1 = default = 100% of the part's rated value)
	HomeWorldAltitude = 25000	//Altitude on Kerbin that negative effects are removed
	BaseHabTime = 1				//How long can 1 crew capacity support 1 Kerbal, expressed in Kerbal Months
	ReplacementPartAmount = 0	//How fast life support equipment and habs 'wears out'
	HabRange = 150				//How close we need to be to use other vessel's habitation modules and recyclers.
	EnableRecyclers = true		//Use resource recyclers?  Not the same as resource converteres like greenhouses!
	VetNames = Jebediah,Valentina,Bill,Bob	
}

//  SIDE EFFECTS:
// 
//  0 = No Effect (The feature is effectively turned off
//  1 = Grouchy (they become a Tourist until rescued)
//  2 = Mutinous (A tourist, but destroys a part of a nearby vessel...)
//  3 = Instantly 'wander' back to the KSC - don't ask us how!
//  4 = M.I.A. (will eventually respawn)
//  5 = K.I.A. 

Ok, so, my Kerbals don't die or use any electric charge.

I am usure about the "Homeworld Altitude" part. does that mean that under that hight no negative affects occur?

What does "Enable recyclers" actually do?

--EDIT--

I forgot, what do I have to enable to make personal space an issue?

Edited February 11, 2016 by Andem

[goldenpsp]

3 minutes ago, Andem said:

@goldenpsp Take a look at this:

LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS
{
	SupplyTime = 324000			//How many seconds before Kerbals are affected by no supplies
	EVATime = 21600				//How many seconds before ill effects on EVA
	ECAmount = 0.01				//EC per Kerbal per second						
	SupplyAmount = 0.00075		//Supplies consumed per Kerbal per second
	WasteAmount = 0.00075		//Mulch produced per Kerbal per second
	NoSupplyEffect = 5			//Effect if a Kerbal has no supplies or EC
	NoSupplyEffectVets = 5		//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and has no supplies or EC
	EVAEffect = 5				//Effect if a Kerbal exceeds EVA time		
	EVAEffectVets = 5			//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and exceeds EVA time
	NoHomeEffect = 0			//Effect if a Kerbal becomes homesick
	NoHomeEffectVets = 0		//Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and becomes homesick
	HabMultiplier = 5			//Bonus to hab values (1 = default = 100% of the part's rated value)
	HomeWorldAltitude = 25000	//Altitude on Kerbin that negative effects are removed
	BaseHabTime = 1				//How long can 1 crew capacity support 1 Kerbal, expressed in Kerbal Months
	ReplacementPartAmount = 0	//How fast life support equipment and habs 'wears out'
	HabRange = 150				//How close we need to be to use other vessel's habitation modules and recyclers.
	EnableRecyclers = true		//Use resource recyclers?  Not the same as resource converteres like greenhouses!
	VetNames = Jebediah,Valentina,Bill,Bob	
}

//  SIDE EFFECTS:
// 
//  0 = No Effect (The feature is effectively turned off
//  1 = Grouchy (they become a Tourist until rescued)
//  2 = Mutinous (A tourist, but destroys a part of a nearby vessel...)
//  3 = Instantly 'wander' back to the KSC - don't ask us how!
//  4 = M.I.A. (will eventually respawn)
//  5 = K.I.A. 

Ok, so, my Kerbals don't die or use any electric charge.

I am usure about the "Homeworld Altitude" part. does that mean that under that hight no negative affects occur?

What does "Enable recyclers" actually do?

--EDIT--

I forgot, what do I have to enable to make personal space an issue?

Where are you testing?  Homeworld altitude is the alt which under the kerbals don't use any life support on Kerbin.  If you want to test you need to get off Kerbin.

Lets you use the recycler modules, which can extend Life support by using less life support per second.

Set Nohome to something other than 0 to enable the habitation stuff.

[Andem]

3 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Where are you testing?  Homeworld altitude is the alt which under the kerbals don't use any life support on Kerbin.  If you want to test you need to get off Kerbin.

Lets you use the recycler modules, which can extend Life support by using less life support per second.

Set Nohome to something other than 0 to enable the habitation stuff.

So if I were to set Homeworld Altitude to 0, what would happen?

[goldenpsp]

6 minutes ago, Andem said:

So if I were to set Homeworld Altitude to 0, what would happen?

Never tried.

[Andem]

8 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Never tried.

It enables death on Kerbin.

You answered and fixed the issues I had, thank you so much.