[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[VaPaL]

@KocLobster Yes it is!

[mciann]

I decided to give this a try, in the hopes of creating realistic interplanetary vessels.  I did a little testing and came up with the following:

(assuming a round trip Duna mission with a crew of 3 which should take around 6758 hours)

(I am using USI LS 0.3.15 for KSP 1.05)

I can run straight up supplies (23 2.5m cans)

Or I can run greenhouses and attach 64 mini-packs of fertilizer (the only container that seems to be able to hold fertilizer)

 

Given the part count it would seem to take to just get to Duna, I can't begin to imagine what a trip to Jool would look like.  I sort of imagined I would get late game advanced parts that would allow me to build a ship that could be self-sustaining, but that appears not to be the case.

Am I doing this right?  I'm finding it difficult to imagine doing things like land on Tylo with the USI LS mechanics as I understand them.  The capacity of the containers doesn't seem to match the requirements of the system as I understand it.  It occurs to me that I must not be getting something in all of this.

 

Thanks.

 

[RoverDude]

@mcainn - one word.  Recyclers.

Start by tossing a science lab on 'em, and cupolas to increase hab time, and hitchhikers for hab space.

[mciann]

8 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

@mcainn - one word.  Recyclers.

Start by tossing a science lab on 'em, and cupolas to increase hab time, and hitchhikers for hab space.

Fantastic!  Thanks for such a quick reply!

[ibanix]

29 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

I wouldn't necessarily hold your breath.  Roverdude could prove me wrong, but historically he creates, and the user base documents.  Not to say Roverdude hasn't written up some things, but in generally the bulk of the "comprehensive" documentation has come from the user base.

I worked for 10 years in software. A piece of "common knowledge" among the older, more seasoned folks was: "Your product will bring the customer, but your documentation will keep them."

I wouldn't mind writing documentation - I've done plenty - but I am still trying to get a firm handle on the mechanics myself. The person with the best knoweldge, who presumably would write the most accurate docs, would be RoverDude. But I'll get off my soapbox now and hope someone will pick up the challenge.      

 

 

6 minutes ago, mciann said:

Fantastic!  Thanks for such a quick reply!

If you're really crazy, I think you can actually take gypsum and a converter (from UKS) and make fertilizer enroute, but I don't knoe how long of a trip is needed to make that worth doing. 

[goldenpsp]

40 minutes ago, ibanix said:

I worked for 10 years in software. A piece of "common knowledge" among the older, more seasoned folks was: "Your product will bring the customer, but your documentation will keep them."

I wouldn't mind writing documentation - I've done plenty - but I am still trying to get a firm handle on the mechanics myself. The person with the best knoweldge, who presumably would write the most accurate docs, would be RoverDude. But I'll get off my soapbox now and hope someone will pick up the challenge.      

That is a fine model if you are writing software for the customer.  Roverdude (and this is probably true of most modders) has been clear many times (to paraphrase)

"I write mods for me, because of things I want in the game.  I'm then nice enough to share it with everyone else"

So while I am sure Roverdude gets some joy seeing others enjoying his creations, that joy may or may not extend to activities he may not find as "fun" such as spending time writing documentation.  And I certainly wouldn't fault him for that.

Edited May 12, 2016 by goldenpsp

[mekaerwin]

You know, I just read a post yesterday that roverdude commented on with some guy wanting a "mod" the entailed everything and the kitchen sink. It makes me wonder why modders even put up with some of the community at all. I'm just glad they do ignore the vocal ones and release gems. I say it to my wife all the time and it really saddens me, but the world seems to be full of people that run on entitlement instead of gratitude. Cheers with a cup of gratitude to you RD. When your wife gets home ignore the community for a while and enjoy some time with her and your boys. Just don't stay gone too long. I've got a long list of things you "need" to work on.

[Kwarazi]

53 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

"I write mods for me, because of things I want in the game.  I'm then nice enough to share it with everyone else"

So while I am sure Roverdude gets some joy seeing others enjoying his creations, that joy may or may not extend to activities he may not find as "fun" such as spending time writing documentation.  And I certainly wouldn't fault him for that.

I think that first line should be written in bold letters in all Mod posts on this forum as some people need to realise how much work and effort goes into producing some of the unbelievable mods that exist for our game.

 

[RoverDude]

Thanks gang, I appreciate it

[cantab]

5 hours ago, sentania said:

The way I read it, it's not that you consume them quicker, it's 15 kerbal days, so if you are doing Earth time that means there are 4 kerbal days per earth day.....

I did what I should have done first: actually tested it. And you are correct. Both supplies consumption and grace period are the same in seconds (or minutes or hours) whatever the game's Kerbin/Earth time setting, which is the behaviour I would expect. So I think there should be no need to change USI Life Support's settings unless one wants to change the actual consumption rates and/or grace period. Or change what happens when the Kerbals run out.

Sorry for mouthing off @RoverDude . I misunderstood what you said and my reaction was basically "What the [expletive]? That's ridiculous'. And indeed it was - what I thought was happening was so ridiculous that it wasn't true.

The only time-related issue I found is that the top line that states the rate of supply consumption (eg 16.2/day) is always using Kerbin days.

[ibanix]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Thanks gang, I appreciate it

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the really great work the modders do - particularly since RoverDude is *also* Squad staff, so that's like double duty! 

55 minutes ago, cantab said:

I did what I should have done first: actually tested it. And you are correct. Both supplies consumption and grace period are the same in seconds (or minutes or hours) whatever the game's Kerbin/Earth time setting, which is the behaviour I would expect.

The only time-related issue I found is that the top line that states the rate of supply consumption (eg 16.2/day) is always using Kerbin days.

Well, it would be confusing if you thought you had 15 days and your supplies ran out on day 4....

Was there a time before earth-time was an option? I feel like RoverDude might have written the basics prior to that, so the issue was never considered. 

I think the lesson here is: Work in units of hours. Those don't change. 

[Phocks]

Due to a number of unforeseen issues, I have Jeb in a vessel with a whole bunch of science about to crash into the earth (running RSS). He is stuck in 'tourist' mode, and no matter what I do to the save file, I can't seem to regain control of the vessel (setting all tourist values back to 'crew', 'pilot' etc). I've also tried removing the mod, but nothing seems to update Jeb.

 Does anyone have any suggestions?

[VaPaL]

@ibanix There's info on the wiki and there's a doc RD wrotte, here the Google Drive link to it: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5DeuZPvuq9hd2VWZXFBZlFwNkE

It's not quite a tutorial, but explains how things work. This + the wiki are a lot of information.

[Andem]

1 hour ago, Phocks said:

Due to a number of unforeseen issues, I have Jeb in a vessel with a whole bunch of science about to crash into the earth (running RSS). He is stuck in 'tourist' mode, and no matter what I do to the save file, I can't seem to regain control of the vessel (setting all tourist values back to 'crew', 'pilot' etc). I've also tried removing the mod, but nothing seems to update Jeb.

 Does anyone have any suggestions?

You can refill the vessel in the save file, or you can uninstall the mod and then edit him back to being a pilot, either of those should work.

[Phocks]

39 minutes ago, Andem said:

You can refill the vessel in the save file, or you can uninstall the mod and then edit him back to being a pilot, either of those should work.

Hi Andem, thanks for the quick reply. Unfortunately those were the first things I tried. Editing his status in the save from 'tourist', 'tourist' to 'crew', 'pilot' appears to change his role when you mouseover, but I still can't control the vessel. Likewise refilling the supplies appears to have no affect.

Uninstalling the mod doesn't change his status either, he remains a 'tourist', seemingly with no mechanism to switch him back.

[Mr Shifty]

3 hours ago, ibanix said:

Was there a time before earth-time was an option? I feel like RoverDude might have written the basics prior to that, so the issue was never considered. 

There was a time before Kerbin Time was an option (prior to KSP 0.23.5), but RoverDude wasn't the force of nature he is now back then. Certainly USI-LS didn't show up until about a year ago.

[KocLobster]

3 hours ago, Phocks said:

Hi Andem, thanks for the quick reply. Unfortunately those were the first things I tried. Editing his status in the save from 'tourist', 'tourist' to 'crew', 'pilot' appears to change his role when you mouseover, but I still can't control the vessel. Likewise refilling the supplies appears to have no affect.

Uninstalling the mod doesn't change his status either, he remains a 'tourist', seemingly with no mechanism to switch him back.

I had this happen to me once when I needed to uninstall USI-LS. The kerbal had run out of supplies and so was a temporary tourist, but uninstalling USI-LS made it permanent.

However, editing the save file fixed the issue. Can you post yours? It's possible you're not editing it correctly. Myself, or someone could look at it and potentially fix it for you.

[ibanix]

I managed to do this once but I forget most of the details. Search for the name of the Kerbal. Change 'Tourist' to their correct profession, AND you'll need to find the vessel's listed supply container and increase it, AND you may have to change the timestamp on the 'how long since last feeding'. This is what I recall, anyways.

[invultri]

Results of my doodling! This is a tourist / training ship to fly 8 kerbals + pilot from kerbin to mun to minmus and returning via a short visit just outside kerbins SOI. Unfortunately I forgot to take screenshots of the minmus bit

@RoverDude There is one thing that I did notice, it seems that the supply kept increasing during the mission. I left with ~1day 1hour worth and that increased upto 5 days something at the end. Documented in the last screenshot.

* I did some revisions already on this craft, re-entering it with only 50 EC is very very hard so I fixed that and I also added some extra fuel to be able to safely escape kerbin soi and return.

[Phocks]

1 hour ago, ibanix said:

I managed to do this once but I forget most of the details. Search for the name of the Kerbal. Change 'Tourist' to their correct profession, AND you'll need to find the vessel's listed supply container and increase it, AND you may have to change the timestamp on the 'how long since last feeding'. This is what I recall, anyways.

Apparently this is what I'd missed. Edited that variable and I was able to control him again. Many thanks

[ibanix]

2 hours ago, invultri said:

Results of my doodling! This is a tourist / training ship to fly 8 kerbals + pilot from kerbin to mun to minmus and returning via a short visit just outside kerbins SOI. Unfortunately I forgot to take screenshots of the minmus bit

@RoverDude There is one thing that I did notice, it seems that the supply kept increasing during the mission. I left with ~1day 1hour worth and that increased upto 5 days something at the end. Documented in the last screenshot.

 

Yes, that's expected when using greenhouses, assuming your conversation rate exceeds consumption. You're converting mulch and fertilizer into supplies, increasing the total supplies.

[RoverDude]

Yup,  conservation of mass and such.  Until the fertilizer runs out.

[invultri]

8 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Yup,  conservation of mass and such.  Until the fertilizer runs out.

Ah.. you mean that M(mulch) + M(fertilizer) == M(supply) ?

(Which is interesting since mulch is tossed away when its full right?)

Edited May 13, 2016 by invultri

[ibanix]

Yes. How did you think it worked?

[invultri]

6 minutes ago, ibanix said:

Yes. How did you think it worked?

Differently :). Basically I expected that some losses were present in the supplies to mulch step such that mulch + fertilizer would net the same amount of supplies. Now I know this is normal and I should make sure that I have enough supply storage space on the longer missions such that we do not lose the mulch.