[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[MalevolentNinja]

On 6/10/2016 at 6:17 AM, RoverDude said:

Sounds incredibly unbalanced, unless that greenhouse is now a 7.5 ton + part...

I've been looking at KPBS for the first time, evaluating including it in my main career. And yeah, I totally agree. Not to offend whoever came up with the USI cfgs for it but it's way out of wack with USI defaults. I'll post in the PKBS thread once I get it worked out, maybe the author will agree to update the balance.

1 hour ago, MatterBeam said:

@RoverDude

In USI-LS, Kerbals consume Supplies and produce Mulch. How can I add another resource to the list of what is being produced?

You would have to change the C# code and recompile, that is not something you can change with a MM cfg.

Edited June 12, 2016 by MalevolentNinja

[tsaven]

On 6/10/2016 at 6:17 AM, RoverDude said:

Sounds incredibly unbalanced, unless that greenhouse is now a 7.5 ton + part...

It's 4.3 tons I think, but I'm also using some additional configs for UKS/KPBS compatibility written up by @PocketBrotector.  I'll have to look at them more in detail when I get home in a couple days and compare them to the stock KPBS configs.  I know @Nils277 is working on an update for full UKS compatibility, maybe some balance changes should be made. 

I wonder if there's a way to have the Greenhouse (or any other part) function as a Recycler OR an Agroponics grower OR a Cultivator, but only one of those at a time.

[RoverDude]

5 hours ago, MatterBeam said:

@RoverDude

In USI-LS, Kerbals consume Supplies and produce Mulch. How can I add another resource to the list of what is being produced?

You don't - it works that way by design.

25 minutes ago, tsaven said:

It's 4.3 tons I think, but I'm also using some additional configs for UKS/KPBS compatibility written up by @PocketBrotector.  I'll have to look at them more in detail when I get home in a couple days and compare them to the stock KPBS configs.  I know @Nils277 is working on an update for full UKS compatibility, maybe some balance changes should be made. 

I wonder if there's a way to have the Greenhouse (or any other part) function as a Recycler OR an Agroponics grower OR a Cultivator, but only one of those at a time.

I published pretty clear balance guidelines for this reason.  While I totally get that it's your game, etc. when stuff pops out as mods, it results in a weird and unbalanced 'race to the bottom' where people just use the most unbalanced parts, or have to restrain and intentionally hobble themselves in their game.  And since they are USI-LS compatible parts, I end up fielding the whole 'why is X so heavy, or why is Y so hard?' because someone's pushing a set of stuff that's completely unbalanced from the original intent and balance of not only this mod, but the other ones that tie into it.

Regarding your other question, the latter (greenhouse that takes Mulch+Fertilizer vs greenhouse that takes Water+Substrate) already exists - MKS does this.  But beyond that, conditional processors would take some code.

[gunt3rgam3r]

Hey all,

I am working on using USI LS in my rp0 install.  I just enjoy the additional mechanics USI adds that TAC doesn't have.  Has anyone already adjusted the .cfg files in RO for this to work?  If so would love to borrow them...

[panarchist]

1 hour ago, tsaven said:

It's 4.3 tons I think, but I'm also using some additional configs for UKS/KPBS compatibility written up by @PocketBrotector.  I'll have to look at them more in detail when I get home in a couple days and compare them to the stock KPBS configs.  I know @Nils277 is working on an update for full UKS compatibility, maybe some balance changes should be made. 

I wonder if there's a way to have the Greenhouse (or any other part) function as a Recycler OR an Agroponics grower OR a Cultivator, but only one of those at a time.

It's 3 tons.  Compared to the USI-LS Greenhouse, it's 6x the mass using 3x the EC, 5x the Mulch, and 5x the Fertilizer to product 5x the Supplies of the USI-LS greenhouse.  IIRC, the hab values on the KBPS parts were 100% in-line with RoverDude's guidelines, but the Greenhouse is definitely off by a bit.

[RoverDude]

The rub is that he has it as *both* a recycler *and* a hab multiplier.  Which = 7.5t of mass to be balanced with the other single-use parts.  Converters are generally a wash when bundled with recycler mass.

If it was just a recycler or just a hab multiplier, the number would of course be half.  Either 3t or 3.5t.

Edited June 12, 2016 by RoverDude

[Nils277]

6 hours ago, RoverDude said:

The rub is that he has it as *both* a recycler *and* a hab multiplier.  Which = 7.5t of mass to be balanced with the other single-use parts.  Converters are generally a wash when bundled with recycler mass.

If it was just a recycler or just a hab multiplier, the number would of course be half.  Either 3t or 3.5t.

I will rebalance the greenhouse then. Which means balancing the recycler and the hab-multiplier. The other functionalities are added by the compatibility patch. 

Are there balancing guidelines for UKS too? Don't want to risk the supporting parts to disappear like the parts from ELP.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Nils277

[RoverDude]

Best bet is to use existing parts as analogues, as there's no official balance guide at this time

[RoverDude]

Also, @Nils277 , not sure what you're trying to imply by 'magically' disappearing parts.. (well, I have a guess but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt).  

Parts do not 'magically' vanish because their stats are wonky.  Everyone is free to make wonky stat parts, and im free to call them out on it.

Also FYI, EL parts don't vanish at all.  And the time some of them were removed was because they flat our didn't work, because I use the custom config options baked into EL, not the defaults.  So we had to figure out which option led to the least support issues (at least until Taniwha adds a detailed mode for EL, at which point I can just adopt that).

Edited June 13, 2016 by RoverDude

[Nils277]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Also, @Nils277 , not sure what you're trying to imply by 'magically' disappearing parts.. (well, I have a guess but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt).  

Parts do not 'magically' vanish because their stats are wonky.  Everyone is free to make wonky stat parts, and im free to call them out on it.

Also FYI, EL parts don't vanish at all.  And the time some of them were removed was because they flat our didn't work, because I use the custom config options baked into EL, not the defaults.  So we had to figure out which option led to the least support issues (at least until Taniwha adds a detailed mode for EL, at which point I can just adopt that).

You may see that i removed the 'magically' mere minutes after i posted, because it sounded to accusingly. Been a bit frustrated that the unbalanced Greenhouse seemed to be used as a reason to strip KPBS of its ability/rightfulness to support USI-LS as a whole (and should not be used) . At least it appeared so to me. It would have been nicer to simply pass me a note that something is off, so it can be fixed. It sounds like this has been known and displeasing you for some time now.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Nils277

[MalevolentNinja]

Just my 2 cents here, but @Nils277 KPBS is awesome. The parts are well thought out, well modeled and really add something to the game. But the USI-LS balance of those parts is way off. It's not a big deal, it's easy to fix and unless you're deep into USI-LS you may not even see the issues. I don't think anyone meant to offend you - I know I didn't.

Edited June 13, 2016 by MalevolentNinja

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, Nils277 said:

You may see that i removed the 'magically' mere minutes after i posted, because it sounded to accusingly. Been a bit frustrated that the unbalanced Greenhouse seemed to be used as a reason to strip KPBS of its ability/rightfulness to support USI-LS as a whole (and should not be used) . At least it appeared so to me. It would have been nicer to simply pass me a note that something is off, so it can be fixed. It sounds like this has been known and displeasing you for some time now.

So you go from removing an accusing tone directly into accusing me of an outright falsehood.

You need to seriously check the attitude.  Someone posted some stats that I had never seen before, and I noted that they were very unbalanced.  Now through some kind of mental gymnastics, you're starting to (publicly) fling random accusations and conspiracy theories.

If your goal was cooperation and interop, you're really taking a weird approach.  You might want to take a step back, because all you're doing now is throwing all goodwill down the drain.

 

[VaPaL]

With all due respect RD, I got the same impression that Nils, and I think it's because of this: 

Quote

I published pretty clear balance guidelines for this reason.  While I totally get that it's your game, etc. when stuff pops out as mods, it results in a weird and unbalanced 'race to the bottom' where people just use the most unbalanced parts, or have to restrain and intentionally hobble themselves in their game.  And since they are USI-LS compatible parts, I end up fielding the whole 'why is X so heavy, or why is Y so hard?' because someone's pushing a set of stuff that's completely unbalanced from the original intent and balance of not only this mod, but the other ones that tie into it.

Looks like you're talking about KPBS along with other mods, and people annoying you because of this unabalances for a while. This give the impression that you know of this unbalance (KBPS one) for a while and it bothers you.

Sorry to step in between you two, but you are both among my favorite mod makers and I woundn't like you two stopping getting along well just because of an misunderstanding. I don't think Nils meant any disrespect towards you.

[RoverDude]

@VaPaLStill looking for the bit where an accusation that I'd ' strip KPBS of its ability/rightfulness to support USI-LS as a whole' had any basis.  That, among other accusations, was totally uncalled for.

[VaPaL]

I don't know, I don't see that either, but he might just misinterpreted something. It happens, unfortunately. I'm always extra carefull when talking through text. it's very easy for thinks like this to happen, had my share of fights with my girlfriend because of that. And things get worse when people came from different cultural backgrounds. It's VERY easy for things get out of hand then.

[Duodecimal]

15 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

@VaPaLStill looking for the bit where an accusation that I'd ' strip KPBS of its ability/rightfulness to support USI-LS as a whole' had any basis.  That, among other accusations, was totally uncalled for.

Yeesh, defensive much? He didn't even mention C*** or the state of USI documentation.  Things are turning into a minefield around here.

@VaPaL was just trying to de-escalate the situation. It's getting too easy to rile things up.

[tsaven]

19 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Regarding your other question, the latter (greenhouse that takes Mulch+Fertilizer vs greenhouse that takes Water+Substrate) already exists - MKS does this.  But beyond that, conditional processors would take some code.

Yeah that was my question, if conditional processors were possible.  So that while a part could do multiple things, it could only do one of them at a time.  Sounds like it's not easily a thing though.  Thanks!

[cantab]

An idea for a total hack way: The part has a module to generate a special resource, and the processors require that resource to run, and do everything possible to stop that resource flowing or being transferred between parts. It wouldn't outright stop both processors running at once but it would stop them running at once at full performance.

I wouldn't really want to use that for anything beyond early WIP / gameplay testing stuff, a proper code solution would be so much better.

[RoverDude]

I expect the larger question is what you're looking to achieve with that function.

[DStaal]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

@VaPaLStill looking for the bit where an accusation that I'd ' strip KPBS of its ability/rightfulness to support USI-LS as a whole' had any basis.  That, among other accusations, was totally uncalled for.

Honestly, if his main exposure to the EL parts hiding is the EL thread (and I believe it is) with your actively hostile response to him and his mod in this thread I can see it being a reasonable concern.

Your integration docs don't say anything explicitly about mixing hab bonuses and recycle bonuses - it even implies that they can be mixed.  It's nowhere on the wiki either (I wrote that page) - though KPBS's support of USI-LS pre-dates the wiki's page on the subject.  I may add something to clarify the point, though at the moment I'm seriously considering adding a line saying 'Don't try to support USI-LS in your mod - RoverDude prefers all life support functions be handled by his own parts.', based on the tone of the last page or so of this thread.

If someone else has put the time and effort into supporting your mod within theirs, it would probably be a good idea to approach any errors with the assumption of good intentions.  They didn't have to put in the work, and I would not fault @Nils277 from removing all official support for USI at the moment.

[goldenpsp]

@DStaal @VaPaL @Duodecimal

Honestly a big pile on from the peanut gallery certainly isn't going to defuse the situation.  @Nils277 hasn't even had  a chance to respond publicly.  For all we know those two cleared things up via PM's.  So how about everyone just sit back and let the two modders work things out. 

[Andem]

4 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

@DStaal @VaPaL @Duodecimal

Honestly a big pile on from the peanut gallery certainly isn't going to defuse the situation.  @Nils277 hasn't even had  a chance to respond publicly.  For all we know those two cleared things up via PM's.  So how about everyone just sit back and let the two modders work things out. 

To add to this: We all need to remember that modders, developers, whatever, are still people. People have small disagreements. Most people also get over it within 30 minutes or so. There isn't any need to react as if one person's frustrations and another's response is the clash of titans, so can everyone please relax?

[ortyblz]

Bob, I love your mods.  But Bill keeps switching to Tourist once supplies run out +15d.  He's on Mun with 5 whitesuits, MET 65d+.  I've changed the Crew and Engineer values from Tourist in the save file, but it switches back.  I thought the orangesuits were immune to giving up.  What am I missing?

The annoying part is that he's there to maximize drilling so they can get off the surface quicker, but as a tourist, I don't get the Engineer bonus to drilling...

Posting for notify

[RoverDude]

Orange suits are no longer the defaults - take a look at your settings by clicking on the USI-LS icon while at the tracking center and you can change it there

Edited June 13, 2016 by RoverDude

[ortyblz]

K thanks.  My bad: oversight.  Easy fix though.