[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Kobymaru]

10 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Ok can I get specifics on what exactly is flickering?  And what your log spam is?  Screenshots are good, save files are better.

Hi, I tried to draft a small issue report, it's here: https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/issues/218

Here's a copy for the forums:

In some situations, the Life Support window disappears and reappears again in an approximatel 5s interval. Each flicker is accompanied by the following exception:

ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
  at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[ProtoCrewMember].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.CheckEVAKerbals () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.GenerateWindow () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.OnWindow (Int32 windowId) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.GUILayout+LayoutedWindow.DoWindow (Int32 windowID) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UnityEngine.GUI.CallWindowDelegate (UnityEngine.WindowFunction func, Int32 id, UnityEngine.GUISkin _skin, Int32 forceRect, Single width, Single height, UnityEngine.GUIStyle style) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

Full log: https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/files/747363/output_log.zip
Quicksave: https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/files/747377/quicksave.zip

I'm afraid I couldn't make a clean reproduction save, so my main game save is attached. That requires the mods KAS and KIS to load the scene (and NearFutureElectrical for other irrelevent ships) , unfortunately.

Screenshot:

Edited February 2, 2017 by Kobymaru

[Pinchy]

Hi - I am using this mod with the GPP pack, and also with Colonists Mod.  I had 2 "normal" kerbonauts - who ran out of supplies and habitat comforts whilst orbiting Gael.  I docked with them with a supply ship and kept getting spammed to say they were homesick and refusing to work and defaulted to their "tourist" state.  I transferred them to the new supply ship and bought them home along with Bob who was also a tourist.  When they returned to Gael they are still showing as tourists and not reverting to their previous state of engineer and scientist. Bob reverted to his previous scientist state on the way home. I have sent them back out on another mission as tourists - but they still remain as tourists.  They have now been stationed at Gael for several days and still remain as tourists.  I have tried to find the answer by scanning this thread as to whether this is the way that it is supposed to work for normal kerbs that once a tourist always a tourist, but can't find my answer - or if it is indeed a bug, or a clash with perhaps the colonists mod where I am spawning farmers/colonists/biologists etc - and maybe the LS mod doesn't work with Colonists mod. In the config I have them set as default option as "grouchy"  Thanks in anticipation.

[bounty123]

1 hour ago, Pinchy said:

When they returned to Gael they are still showing as tourists and not reverting to their previous state of engineer and scientist. 

On page 149 a similar issue with a solution is mentioned, probably caused by conflicting mods. Check it here.

[Pinchy]

Thanks Bounty - I checked this - and aware I can do a manual fix - but was just awaiting to see if this was a bug/feature or known issue.  Just also for completeness to that page - I am not running either of those mods mentioned there.

[Terwin]

@Pinchy If your kerbals went grouchy with an older USI-LS version(before 0.50?) then you may need to fix it manually.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Terwin

[Pinchy]

Hmmm - ok - thanks will check what version I have @Terwin - I only installed it about 10 days ago.... thanks for the HU

[gamerscircle]

I got a couple of what I think are basic LS questions, I have read through the wiki and that might have been a mistake for a LS noob like me, so I apologize if this was covered and I just wasn't able to "get it".

Basic Setup:
Currently - I am setting up a Mun Base, working out pretty , so far.  I have been keeping an eye on the LS Status an when I see that they are low on supplies, I sent a drop. [until I start to make supplies locally and get them going fro there]

 

Question 1:
So, what is the problem?  The habitation? At each site where I have kerbals, I have a hitchhiker, an inflatable and a cupola [usually 2 kerbals per site]  Where and when will I see when they are getting homesick, etc?

Question 2:
Tourists - I did stretch the limits a bit and I have a couple of kerbals back on Kerbin that are tourists, how do I get them back to being members of the space agency and to stop milking the system?

Question 3:
Long Voyages - I plan on taking what I learn from the Mun and apply some of it towards a Duna [yeah, like most do] , I am concerned with the long voyage that I will not get the habitation figured out , so I am looking for some ideas and tips that I am start to apply.

Thank you all for the input and ideas.

[Pinchy]

38 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

Question 2:
Tourists - I did stretch the limits a bit and I have a couple of kerbals back on Kerbin that are tourists, how do I get them back to being members of the space agency and to stop milking the

This is exactly the question I have posed above - so definetely needs some sort of investigation as "I am not alone" it seems.....

[DStaal]

49 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

Question 1:
So, what is the problem?  The habitation? At each site where I have kerbals, I have a hitchhiker, an inflatable and a cupola [usually 2 kerbals per site]  Where and when will I see when they are getting homesick, etc?

Question 2:
Tourists - I did stretch the limits a bit and I have a couple of kerbals back on Kerbin that are tourists, how do I get them back to being members of the space agency and to stop milking the system?

1: In the life-support window, which you can pull up by clicking on the green box in the toolbar.  This will list your current supplies usage, how long it's expected to last, etc. as well as both habitation and home time.  If they actually get homesick, you'll get a notice directly on the screen, saying they've refused to work.

2: Assuming they've been returned to Kerbin and haven't already, try launching them in a ship.  (Any ship, just get them out of the astronought complex and onto the launchpad/runway.)  Often that gives them the nudge to reset, and you can then reclaim the ship.  If that doesn't work - and they went Tourist with an older version of the mod - go into your persistence file and edit their profession back to whatever it was; you got caught by a bug that's believed to have been fixed, but the fix wasn't retroactive.  If they went tourist in the *current* version of the mod, make a copy of the save, attach it to a Github issue (I'd say a new one, not the one that's closed), and then edit your copy to get their professions back.  But note that's only if you are *sure* they went tourist in this version of the mod.  (If you happen to have the log of when they went tourist, RoverDude would probably like that to.)

[PolecatEZ]

1 hour ago, Pinchy said:

This is exactly the question I have posed above - so definetely needs some sort of investigation as "I am not alone" it seems.....

Nope, just happened to me last night.  I have a Minmus base with plenty of hab time and supplies and about 20 Kerbals there, but its a complete lag fest.  I think its a mixture of using MKS and K&K base parts, and especially the "transparent pods" feature (which can lag you even if turned off).  I don't have any mods that mess with Kerbals other than the contract configurator for tourism (maybe?).  So I decide to scrap the base by bringing back kerbals on a space available basis from other missions that pass by...once empty I'll try again without the craziness.  

I land and suddenly one of them is freaking out and made himself into a tourist...ok, he gets on the ship first, and I load up 3 other random ones.  Those 3 were fine when I put them on board.  After reaching low Minmus orbit, all 4 had become tourists...and stayed tourists all the way home...and are still tourists.  Not the most useful report because I can't pinpoint the exact moment I noticed they were all 4 tourists, but I can say that I just started playing again 2 weeks ago and never used USI or MKS before that.

 

3 of us in the last few hours or so...just thinking the only thing I updated was Wild Blue Tools recently.  Probably a coincidence, as I have no idea how that would give my kerbals bad touches, but its all I got for now.

Edited February 2, 2017 by PolecatEZ

[gamerscircle]

Here is another question: [enter noob mode]

I have not altered the LS Setup and I have seen the HAB: & HOME: setting off the the far right, [Life Support Status Screen] which say, "indefinite" in green, there was once that it was orange, but still said "indefinite".

So.. I am doing a really good job, or I have it on Noob settings or something is broke?

[gamerscircle]

46 minutes ago, DStaal said:

 

2: Assuming they've been returned to Kerbin and haven't already, try launching them in a ship.  (Any ship, just get them out of the astronought complex and onto the launchpad/runway.)  Often that gives them the nudge to reset, and you can then reclaim the ship.  If that doesn't work - and they went Tourist with an older version of the mod - go into your persistence file and edit their profession back to whatever it was; you got caught by a bug that's believed to have been fixed, but the fix wasn't retroactive.  If they went tourist in the *current* version of the mod, make a copy of the save, attach it to a Github issue (I'd say a new one, not the one that's closed), and then edit your copy to get their professions back.  But note that's only if you are *sure* they went tourist in this version of the mod.  (If you happen to have the log of when they went tourist, RoverDude would probably like that to.)

I put them in a craft and launched them, nothing changed on the launch pad, then I took them into a kerbin orbit and returned them to land, recovered them and they are still Tourists.  I guess, I need to do it manually?

[DStaal]

Just now, gamerscircle said:

I put them in a craft and launched them, nothing changed on the launch pad, then I took them into a kerbin orbit and returned them to land, recovered them and they are still Tourists.  I guess, I need to do it manually?

Yep, as far as I'm aware.  If it had worked, you wouldn't have needed to leave the launch pad.

17 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

Here is another question: [enter noob mode]

I have not altered the LS Setup and I have seen the HAB: & HOME: setting off the the far right, [Life Support Status Screen] which say, "indefinite" in green, there was once that it was orange, but still said "indefinite".

So.. I am doing a really good job, or I have it on Noob settings or something is broke?

Just to check, are the Kerbals on Kerbin?

Otherwise: I believe it is possible with the right combination of parts.  Not easy, but possible.

[jd284]

17 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

I have not altered the LS Setup and I have seen the HAB: & HOME: setting off the the far right, [Life Support Status Screen] which say, "indefinite" in green, there was once that it was orange, but still said "indefinite".

"Indefinite" means your USI-LS has disabled hab effects so it doesn't matter what the timer is. Which I think is still the default setting if you only have USI-LS and not also MKS.

So if you want to play with hab mechanics you'd need to enable them. Otherwise just ignore it.

Note that you shouldn't change the settings while you have any ongoing long-term missions (beyond Minmus) because the settings will affect those too and those kerbals will suddenly realize that they're actually NOT HAPPY after all.

[gamerscircle]

3 minutes ago, jd284 said:

"Indefinite" means your USI-LS has disabled hab effects so it doesn't matter what the timer is. Which I think is still the default setting if you only have USI-LS and not also MKS.

So if you want to play with hab mechanics you'd need to enable them. Otherwise just ignore it.

You hit the nail on the head... and now.. I am scared to change it.  [makes a copy of persistent.sfs file]

[Terwin]

2 hours ago, gamerscircle said:

Question 3:
Long Voyages - I plan on taking what I learn from the Mun and apply some of it towards a Duna [yeah, like most do] , I am concerned with the long voyage that I will not get the habitation figured out , so I am looking for some ideas and tips that I am start to apply.

There is also a green cube button in the VAB/SPH that you can use to estimate hab time(LS does not take into account any Nom-O-Matics, so only reflects supplies)

Personally, I found a couple hitchhikers, a bunch of view-ports(those mini-cupolas that give a hab multiplier instead of a hab bonus), and a Mk3 passenger cabin gave me quite a bit of hab-time for 4 kerbals.(I put the hab-time multiplier back at 1 so I get 30 kerb-days/seat instead of the 7 at 25%, so you may find a couple more hitchhikers to be better than a mk3 crew cabin at the default settings).  That ship just recently landed on Duna and is heading to Ike(biome-hopping on Duna was put on hold after I realized just how un-aerodynamic that ship is)

Just be sure to turn on habitation for all of your hab-parts when you get to the lunch-pad.(Adding 'activate habitation' to the stage action key can be a good way to make sure you do not forget) 

2 hours ago, gamerscircle said:

Currently - I am setting up a Mun Base, working out pretty , so far.  I have been keeping an eye on the LS Status an when I see that they are low on supplies, I sent a drop. [until I start to make supplies locally and get them going fro there]

I like sending nom-o-matics a soon as I can.  They only need fertilizer to turn mulch back into supplies at a 10:1 ratio, greatly reducing the amount of material you need to send.

Also, even if you don't have MKS installed, you can use the small ISRU to (slowly) produce fertilizer from ore, giving self-sufficiency for as long as your hab lasts.

(if you do have MKS installed, trading supplies/fertilizer for commodities can be highly profitable for the space program, just repaint the container after you empty it, then fill it up and send it home)

[Tyko]

I'm building a window and want to add a very small USI-LS Habitation bonus. 2 questions:

1. Will the module still function if I remove INPUT-RESOURCE so there's no energy required?
2. Since I'm not requiring power, can I have the Habitat turned on by default and remove the Start/Stop Habitat buttons?

 

MODULE 
    {
        name = ModuleHabitation
        BaseKerbalMonths = 0
        CrewCapacity = 1
        BaseHabMultiplier = 0.1
        ConverterName = Habitat
        StartActionName = Start Habitat
        StopActionName = Stop Habitat        
        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = ElectricCharge
            Ratio = 0.0175
        }
    }

[gamerscircle]

6 hours ago, Terwin said:

There is also a green cube button in the VAB/SPH that you can use to estimate hab time(LS does not take into account any Nom-O-Matics, so only reflects supplies)

Personally, I found a couple hitchhikers, a bunch of view-ports(those mini-cupolas that give a hab multiplier instead of a hab bonus), and a Mk3 passenger cabin gave me quite a bit of hab-time for 4 kerbals.(I put the hab-time multiplier back at 1 so I get 30 kerb-days/seat instead of the 7 at 25%, so you may find a couple more hitchhikers to be better than a mk3 crew cabin at the default settings).  That ship just recently landed on Duna and is heading to Ike(biome-hopping on Duna was put on hold after I realized just how un-aerodynamic that ship is)

Just be sure to turn on habitation for all of your hab-parts when you get to the lunch-pad.(Adding 'activate habitation' to the stage action key can be a good way to make sure you do not forget) 

I like sending nom-o-matics a soon as I can.  They only need fertilizer to turn mulch back into supplies at a 10:1 ratio, greatly reducing the amount of material you need to send.

Also, even if you don't have MKS installed, you can use the small ISRU to (slowly) produce fertilizer from ore, giving self-sufficiency for as long as your hab lasts.

(if you do have MKS installed, trading supplies/fertilizer for commodities can be highly profitable for the space program, just repaint the container after you empty it, then fill it up and send it home)

Alright, those are some really great suggestions , i am curious how I am going to handle crew rotation in a situation like Duna.  I will have to maximize their happiness and plan really well to ensure they depart duna to kerbin before .. you know.

[Terwin]

15 hours ago, gamerscircle said:

Alright, those are some really great suggestions , i am curious how I am going to handle crew rotation in a situation like Duna.  I will have to maximize their happiness and plan really well to ensure they depart duna to kerbin before .. you know.

Ranger habitation modules provide a big boost to either hab-time or the hab-time multiplier, so if you weer already planing to produce material kits, just take a few extra Ranger Hab modules and once you expand them you should be in pretty good shape(just make sure you have enough warehoused mk storage to expand them even if you can only get them to 60-70% capacity(PL will keep them from getting fuller than that)).

I figure 4-5 years + hab modules to be deployed as able should give plenty of time to get Duna up to 500%, or at least give you a long time before you need to send replacement crew.  And the crew transport will only need to handle transit time+safety margin, as hab time is per-vessel and home-time is based on the best vessel(aka base). (Refueling the crew transport will hopefully let you send the current crew back...)

 

Although I suppose you could start by putting you kerbals up in a luxury resort for a few minutes on Kerbin or LKO to set their home timer way-high, then just have them hop out and stretch their legs every now and again on Duna to reset their hab-timer.  Have not tried that myself though. 

[WuphonsReach]

37 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Although I suppose you could start by putting you kerbals up in a luxury resort for a few minutes on Kerbin or LKO to set their home timer way-high, then just have them hop out and stretch their legs every now and again on Duna to reset their hab-timer.  Have not tried that myself though. 

Yeah, it's not hard to get kerbals with 100y home timers.

I can't decide whether it's too easy to do that, or whether there should be a lower upper-end value (25y?), or if there is a huge disparity between the current habitation rating and the home rating whether the home rating should decay faster.

[bokrif]

I'd like to put together a spreadsheet to calculete the exact supply demands (incl. the Nam-o-Matic conversions) but I'm not sure about the method.

How does USI LS actually calculates consumption and production/converison? Daily? Hourly? Second by second? Does production and consumption happen in the same time unit btw?

[jd284]

It's continuous, frame by frame. Kerbals don't have set mealtimes, they sort of nibble on the supplies all day long (and night too).

If you're calculating demand, make sure you don't forget the recyclers. They're the most important piece of the puzzle.

[Rock3tman_]

I know that feature suggestions/requests are somewhat frowned upon in release threads, but I think this is a pretty good place to pitch an idea that I have: In USI-LS, Kerbals either give up, mutiny, go home, or die as soon as their supplies run out. Obviously the goal of life support is so players don't end up letting this timer run out, but accidents do happen, especially when running a part failure mod. Like with Apollo 13 and the Martian, I think Kerbals should have an option to work the problem and stretch their supplies until they find a solution. 

What I would propose is a toggle to enable the crew of a vessel to enter Emergency Mode. This would extend life support and hab times by a multiplier in exchange for a large loss in crew experience levels and reputation. Just like Apollo 13, the crew would lose efficiency and capability on their mission in return for making it home alive. Plus the reputation bonus should dissuade players from just turning it on to maximize mission time.

This is just an idea I had, it is by no means a request and I am not good enough at coding to make this myself

[RoverDude]

The fifteen day grace period for supplies already represents them stretching things (burning oxygen candles, etc.).

Unrelated - working on the next release and this will include a few adjustments to hab caps that make Scouts/Pilots more balanced, and also makes long-distance voyages easier.

[Merkov]

 

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Doing a quick drive by.

When comparing a Hitchiker to a Tundra don't forget to account for machinery mass.  Also, stock modules are weird since balance is a consideration of both volume and mass... and I can't control that ratio for stock, so I have to pick one of the two to roll with (I would have to double check which I used).  In any case, probably a better topic for the USI-LS thread as I am much more likely to see it there

Just porting this conversation to the USI-LS thread. Having to balance volume vs mass makes sense, and I would be interested to know how you came to that (when you have a chance, of course). With regards to machinery, though, I don't think Kerbitats use machinery, so the example provided by dboi88 is a good example:

14 hours ago, dboi88 said:

@Nils277 @tsaven The more i look the less i understand. Small tundra Kerbitat has 2.41 months per ton, Large Kerbitat has 6.8 months per ton and the hitchhiker has 8.4 months per ton.

My best guess at this stage is that they're is something else entirely that's being included in the balance figures.

Kerbitats are handy to look at because they don't need material kits to inflate or machinery to operate. DStaal mentioned that habitation bonuses require EC usage, but as Nils277 pointed out, taking EC usage into account doesn't explain the perceived imbalance either:

13 hours ago, Nils277 said:

This does not add up too... the small tundra Kerbitat has 2.41 months per ton and uses 0.495 EC/sec and the large Kerbitat has 6.8 months per ton and uses 1.925. So here the number of EC per hab month is relatively equal 

But the hitchhiker has 8.4 months per ton and uses only 0.525 EC/sec so it is way more powerful.

Now, looking at the small Tundra inflatable habitat, it has a dry mass of 1.875t, requires 1000 MaterialKits for expansion (side note: from what I can tell, resources have a defined density, not a defined mass. MaterialKits have a density of 0.001, which I assume means each has a mass of 0.001 t. If that is incorrect, then all of my following numbers are wrong and I apoligise.) which is 1t, plus 500 Machinery, which is 1.89 t, plus 0.495 EC/s to operate. In exchange, you get 19.8 months of hab time. So that's 19.8 months divided by 4.765t which equals 4.155 months per t for 0.495 EC/s, which still seems underpowered compared to the stock hitchhiker.

One thought I had in the KPBS thread was that maybe making the hitchhiker so powerful is necessary for those using bare USI-LS without MKS, since your options for hab parts are limited and anyone who wants to send a kerbal to Duna would like a vessel that is not 90% hitchhikers. If this is the case, perhaps MKS should add machinery as a requirement to the hitchhiker when it is installed?

Of course, if you actually have it all balanced using a different metric, then maybe nothing needs to change, but some clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!