[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[RoverDude]

16 hours ago, PocketBrotector said:

@RoverDude, quick question re: adding USI-LS support to parts from other mods: are there any issues with adding KerbalMonths and/or hab multipliers to parts that don't actually have a crew capacity? I had a brief conversation with jofwu about it here and I don't anticipate any problems, but I figured I would double-check with you to make sure. Thinking about submitting some updated pull requests to Nertea for USI-LS support of the crew tubes in Stockalike Station Parts and Near Future Construction, which are habitable but don't actually have seats.

Should not be.

4 hours ago, Grumman said:

I have two questions:

1. According to the wiki, if I turn off wear & tear in USI-LS's configuration, UKS will turn it back on. Can I counteract this by turning it off in UKS's USI-LS.cfg file as well?

2. Would you be willing to extend the formula for the rate at which unhappiness accumulates to allow for more complex behaviour? At the moment, your formula appears to be something along the lines of:

(monthly unhappiness) = NoOfKerbals / (Hab-months * BaseHabTime)

What I would like is if the rate was instead:

(monthly unhappiness) = (NoOfKerbals + Offset) / (Hab-months * BaseHabTime) - Offset

...with Offset defined in the config file. If Offset = 0, unhappiness is accrued at the same rate it is now. But if someone set Offset to greater than 0, then it is possible to create a sufficiently large space station in which Kerbals could live indefinitely or even lose unhappiness without returning to Kerbin, with the threshold being ((1/Offset) + 1) Hab-months per Kerbal. An offset of 0.02 (i.e. 1/50) requires 51 Hab-months per Kerbal, an offset of 0.05 (i.e. 1/20) requires 21 Hab-months per Kerbal, and so on.

1.  Yes,  2.  This already exists - there's a hab multiplier field.  Default is 1.

[rayman491]

Hi,

I'm enjoying this mod, however I'm having an issue. When trying to do a 'rescue a kerbal from orbit' type contract, once I get within range of the pod and switch to that pod, I cannot make the kerbal EVA because as soon as I switch to him he is grumpy and refuses to work, despite me having accepted the contract less than 15 days ago. So i thought he should not yet be grumpy, but he was. In fact he is actually constantly switching back and forth between being grumpy and returning to work. So my question is, What files/lines should I edit in order to at least get him to return to work long enough to get him in EVA? I've been trying to browse the files myself but I can't seem to figure it out. Any help is appreciated, thanks!

[v1per]

@RoverDude I'm re starting the work on my parts and something I didn't get to do last time around was to implement support for various mods. Since I'm working with 1.1 right now to be ready for the full release, I'm integrating the mods that are already 1.1 compatible which including yours of course. Right now, I'm trying to understand better how Habitation and the Recycler work so I can balance my parts. If I understand correctly:

- The Habitation is to determine how much time the Kerbals can keep working in a specific environment. To that end, you calculate the size of the part via Mass and Crew Size in order to establish how much time that is. The KerbalMonths and HabMultiplier both act as possible boosts/reductions to that time.

- The Recycler increase the time supplies last. RecyclePercent determines how much of the supplies can be re used. I'm not clear on the crew capacity though. Is that another multiplier for how much it can recycle?

Let me know if I got everything right. Great mod btw. Best Life Support mod so far.

[Grumman]

10 hours ago, RoverDude said:

2.  This already exists - there's a hab multiplier field.  Default is 1.

Unless the wiki is wrong, the hab multiplier can only produce longer - but still finite - kerbal-month habitation times before things go wrong. That is not what I am asking for.

Spoiler

If it takes X months for a Kerbal to reach 100% unhappiness, the Kerbal is gaining 1/X unhappiness per month (the red line). Unhappiness gained per month is always positive, with the rate only reaching 0 at infinite Hab-months per Kerbal. Multiplying the effective number of hab-months per Kerbal can never reach infinity, so the Kerbal is always getting more unhappy.

The purpose of the offset is to allow something like the blue line, where the rate reaches 0 at a finite number of effective Hab-months per Kerbal (in this case at 21 Hab-months per Kerbal for Offset = 0.05). Under this system, it is possible to build something like an orbital hotel where Kerbals can go to become less homesick, instead of Kerbin being the only place in the entire system where that is possible.

[DStaal]

3 hours ago, v1per said:

@RoverDude I'm re starting the work on my parts and something I didn't get to do last time around was to implement support for various mods. Since I'm working with 1.1 right now to be ready for the full release, I'm integrating the mods that are already 1.1 compatible which including yours of course. Right now, I'm trying to understand better how Habitation and the Recycler work so I can balance my parts. If I understand correctly:

- The Habitation is to determine how much time the Kerbals can keep working in a specific environment. To that end, you calculate the size of the part via Mass and Crew Size in order to establish how much time that is. The KerbalMonths and HabMultiplier both act as possible boosts/reductions to that time.

- The Recycler increase the time supplies last. RecyclePercent determines how much of the supplies can be re used. I'm not clear on the crew capacity though. Is that another multiplier for how much it can recycle?

Let me know if I got everything right. Great mod btw. Best Life Support mod so far.

I don't think mass actually comes into play for habitation, as I understand it.  Although it's suggested as a good default for the modifiers, the 'base' habitation is by crew size alone, I think.

On the crew capacity for the recycler I'm very sure: It's not a multiplier, it's a 'processing capacity' stat.  A recycler can recycle RecyclePercent of the supplies for *up to* crew capacity.  You get full recycling for all crew under that, you get no recycling for all crew over that.  (So a 90% recycler with a crew capacity of 3, on a ship with 4 crew will give you a supply consumption of ((0.1*3)+1)*0.00075 per second, or 84.24 per day, which is 21.06 per Kerbal overall - but if you get rid of one crew member it would go to 6.48 per Kerbal.  Assuming I've done my math right.)  The point being that you can have a tiny recycler that's incredibly efficient at what it does - but you can't shovel 20 Kerbal's worth of waste into it.  It just can't process that fast.

[v1per]

2 hours ago, DStaal said:

I don't think mass actually comes into play for habitation, as I understand it.  Although it's suggested as a good default for the modifiers, the 'base' habitation is by crew size alone, I think.

On the crew capacity for the recycler I'm very sure: It's not a multiplier, it's a 'processing capacity' stat.  A recycler can recycle RecyclePercent of the supplies for *up to* crew capacity.  You get full recycling for all crew under that, you get no recycling for all crew over that.  (So a 90% recycler with a crew capacity of 3, on a ship with 4 crew will give you a supply consumption of ((0.1*3)+1)*0.00075 per second, or 84.24 per day, which is 21.06 per Kerbal overall - but if you get rid of one crew member it would go to 6.48 per Kerbal.  Assuming I've done my math right.)  The point being that you can have a tiny recycler that's incredibly efficient at what it does - but you can't shovel 20 Kerbal's worth of waste into it.  It just can't process that fast.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the info. Very helpful

[RoverDude]

Actually mass does come into play for habitation, more for balancing reasons (and the logic being that a more durable structure is going to last longer than some light but flimsy canvas).  There are guidelines in the config:

//Suggested settings are based on part mass for consistency.  
// 
//For dedicated hab parts (no other generators, etc.):
//  Kerbal Months should equal mass * 5
//    ReplacementParts = 100 * crew capacity + 100 * Kerbal Months. 
//
//For parts that act as hab multipliers (dedicated or bundled with other functions/converters),
//a multiplier equal to the tonnage works well.
//
//For recyclers, their percentage should be mass / crew capcity (i.e. the UKS Pioneer Module at 3.75t = 75%)
//at crew capacity 5.  Increasing crew cap should result in an increase in mass.
//i.e. a 12-crew recycler that weighs 7.5 tons should have a recycler percentage equal to 7.5 / 12 = 62.5%
//Recyclers require (per crew capacity) 0.2 EC and 0.000002 ReplacementParts with a cap of 75%.
//If water is used as an input (0.0002 per crew capacity) the cap can be extended to 90%

Unrelated (and not noted in the config yet) - for multi-use parts (i.e. multipliers + recyclers, etc.) divvy  up how much mass is dedicated to each function.

[Vegetal]

Hey roverdude, just started using this mod, very nice.

First thing: I downloaded the latest, 1.1 rated version to use on my 1.0.5 game, it didn't work. Had to install the latest 1.0.5 rated version. Is that expected? I think it had something to do with module manager, I think it didn't patch the game when starting.

Also: I am aware of the wiki, but is there a way to show predictions in game that take into account recyclers and greenhouses? Right now it only shows predictions based on present supplies, and with greenhouses you just need enough to start the cycle, the rest is fertilizer... And that remembers me of another point. Is it possible to make a bigger fertilizer pack? You end up having to stack a bunch of minipacks, hurts the part count.

[Bombaatu]

Ran into something interesting in 1.1. I ran an extended mission with two orange-suit Kerbals & one normal one. Ran out of supplies (mission was waaaay longer than I thought it would take). 

I kept getting spammed with the "refuses to work" message for all 3, followed immediately by the "returns to duty" message for all three. At no point did any of them actually stop working, despite going without supplies for 15+ days. Didn't know if it was a known issue; at work so couldn't look through the thread. Please let me know if you need additional information.

 

Macbook Pro, El Capitain (OS-X 10.11.4)

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Bombaatu

[DStaal]

2 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Actually mass does come into play for habitation, more for balancing reasons (and the logic being that a more durable structure is going to last longer than some light but flimsy canvas).  There are guidelines in the config:

//Suggested settings are based on part mass for consistency.  
// 
//For dedicated hab parts (no other generators, etc.):
//  Kerbal Months should equal mass * 5
//    ReplacementParts = 100 * crew capacity + 100 * Kerbal Months. 
//
//For parts that act as hab multipliers (dedicated or bundled with other functions/converters),
//a multiplier equal to the tonnage works well.
//
//For recyclers, their percentage should be mass / crew capcity (i.e. the UKS Pioneer Module at 3.75t = 75%)
//at crew capacity 5.  Increasing crew cap should result in an increase in mass.
//i.e. a 12-crew recycler that weighs 7.5 tons should have a recycler percentage equal to 7.5 / 12 = 62.5%
//Recyclers require (per crew capacity) 0.2 EC and 0.000002 ReplacementParts with a cap of 75%.
//If water is used as an input (0.0002 per crew capacity) the cap can be extended to 90%

Unrelated (and not noted in the config yet) - for multi-use parts (i.e. multipliers + recyclers, etc.) divvy  up how much mass is dedicated to each function.

Yes, I know about that, but does the code actually use the mass, or just the supplied number from the part's configs?

Quick example: Let's say I have two hab parts - one with a mass of 10 tones, one with a mass of 5 tones. Both have been set to have 3 Kerbal Months of habitation time.  (I know - obviously someone isn't designing the parts correctly.  But that's a different issue.  )  Does the 10 tone one actually give more habitation time than the 5 tone one?  I didn't think it did - I thought they would both have 3 months hab time, because that's what's in the config.

Now, obviously they should have different hab times - and the part author should be using the mass to help determine that - but I didn't think that the part mass itself was calculated in by USI-LS.

[mcortez]

1 hour ago, Vegetal said:

Hey roverdude, just started using this mod, very nice.

First thing: I downloaded the latest, 1.1 rated version to use on my 1.0.5 game, it didn't work. Had to install the latest 1.0.5 rated version. Is that expected? I think it had something to do with module manager, I think it didn't patch the game when starting.

Also: I am aware of the wiki, but is there a way to show predictions in game that take into account recyclers and greenhouses? Right now it only shows predictions based on present supplies, and with greenhouses you just need enough to start the cycle, the rest is fertilizer... And that remembers me of another point. Is it possible to make a bigger fertilizer pack? You end up having to stack a bunch of minipacks, hurts the part count.

1.1 version is expected behavior: https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Version-Compatibility

I believe RoverDude has already indicated that some of the containers that currently exist in only one, or some, of the USI mods will move to a "core" that is shared between all of the USI mods.  If you need larger containers "right now", you can install the full MKS, which has larger Kontainers available that can be configured for Supplies.

[Wolfdog]

When I install the mod and go to training -> Asteroid redirect part 1, the Gyro Kraken strikes. I don't know whether this only happens to me. Can someone confirm whether they also have this problem?

Testing in Sandbox, everything is fine. But not in the tutorial missions.d

Using KSP 1.1 prelease - the latest version at all times.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Wolfdog
I misspelled the word asteroid.

[goldenpsp]

28 minutes ago, Wolfdog said:

When I install the mod and go to training -> Asteroid redirect part 1, the Gyro Kraken strikes. I don't know whether this only happens to me. Can someone confirm whether they also have this problem?

Testing in Sandbox, everything is fine. But not in the tutorial missions.d

Using KSP 1.1 prelease - the latest version at all times.

Known issue with the tutorials on modded installs.  Run the tutorials under a stock game.

[Wolfdog]

3 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Known issue with the tutorials on modded installs.  Run the tutorials under a stock game.

Thank you. I almost gave up on USI, as I'm (was) a TAC user. Thankfully I realised that it's just the tutorials that are affected.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Wolfdog

[RoverDude]

9 hours ago, DStaal said:

Yes, I know about that, but does the code actually use the mass, or just the supplied number from the part's configs?

Quick example: Let's say I have two hab parts - one with a mass of 10 tones, one with a mass of 5 tones. Both have been set to have 3 Kerbal Months of habitation time.  (I know - obviously someone isn't designing the parts correctly.  But that's a different issue.  )  Does the 10 tone one actually give more habitation time than the 5 tone one?  I didn't think it did - I thought they would both have 3 months hab time, because that's what's in the config.

Now, obviously they should have different hab times - and the part author should be using the mass to help determine that - but I didn't think that the part mass itself was calculated in by USI-LS.

No, it's more of a convention - it's up to the part author to appropriately set up part modules.  Now, nothing is stopping an author from making a 100% recycler that weights 0.0001 tons and has a 10,000 Kerbal-Months bonus.  But if folks want stuff to be fairly balanced, guidelines are important

[Garibaldi2257]

 

12 hours ago, Vegetal said:

Hey roverdude, just started using this mod, very nice.

First thing: I downloaded the latest, 1.1 rated version to use on my 1.0.5 game, it didn't work. Had to install the latest 1.0.5 rated version. Is that expected? I think it had something to do with module manager, I think it didn't patch the game when starting.

Also: I am aware of the wiki, but is there a way to show predictions in game that take into account recyclers and greenhouses? Right now it only shows predictions based on present supplies, and with greenhouses you just need enough to start the cycle, the rest is fertilizer... And that remembers me of another point. Is it possible to make a bigger fertilizer pack? You end up having to stack a bunch of minipacks, hurts the part count.

@Vegetal

On 3/17/2016 at 6:32 PM, Kowgan said:

Rover, quick question: When adding KerbalMonths/HabMultiplier to a part with mass < 1, will the "0.xx" result decrease the overall vessel habitational value? This question is based off assuming that when multiplying things by something < 1, the result is smaller than the original. Thanks.

@Garibaldi2257 *hint hint* Jofwu's fertilizer tanks are pretty neat.

 

you'll probably have to adjust the config files on the 2.5 and 3.75 tanks to read fertilizer instead of supplies and mulch, like I did, but they're a good addition until 1.1 is fully released and we get to play with the ones Roverdude included in the latest release of the mod.

[WintericeUK]

Can someone confirm for me that orange suits (Bill, Bob, Jeb and Val) will NEVER go "tourist" in the 1.1 build please? I have Jeb and Val currently on vacation half-way between Kerbin and Minmus.

[Grumman]

1 hour ago, WintericeUK said:

Can someone confirm for me that orange suits (Bill, Bob, Jeb and Val) will NEVER go "tourist" in the 1.1 build please? I have Jeb and Val currently on vacation half-way between Kerbin and Minmus.

That is incorrect. To turn it off for orange suits, I believe you need to go to GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Settings.cfg and change NoSupplyEffectVeterans to 0.

[WintericeUK]

1 hour ago, Grumman said:

That is incorrect. To turn it off for orange suits, I believe you need to go to GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Settings.cfg and change NoSupplyEffectVeterans to 0.

So this bit of RoverDude's OP is no longer accurate?

On 27/04/2015 at 6:37 PM, RoverDude said:

(Snip)

Orange suited Kerbals (Jeb, Bill, Bob, and Val) are immune to the ill effects of life support. They will still consume supplies if given, but do not leave the job, because they are just that awesome. This always gives a player (especially a new one) an 'out' to test out a manned mission before actually committing your other kerbals, etc. to a horrible fate of snack deprivation.

(Snip)

Damn, that means I either have to leave Jeb and Val floating in space until I unlock the grabber (or KAS becomes available for 1.1) or I have to alter the config to get them back and then reset it... 

[Vegetal]

10 hours ago, Garibaldi2257 said:

 

@Vegetal

 

you'll probably have to adjust the config files on the 2.5 and 3.75 tanks to read fertilizer instead of supplies and mulch, like I did, but they're a good addition until 1.1 is fully released and we get to play with the ones Roverdude included in the latest release of the mod.

Thanks man, gonna take a look!

[funkcanna]

Sorry if this has been asked before, the thread is huge and the search wasn't much help:

What is the formula used to calculate habitation time?  In the life support status window in the Editor I have lots of info, but I'm not sure where it all fits in.  Im trying to build a habitation module but I'm unsure on how to calculate it.  Im not sure what the "Months" numbers mean (why is it showing 1?)  Is there a standard formula I can use?

 

Thanks! 

 

EDIT: Ok, think if found out the formula but still not sure what the "months" number means.  All I know is that if I make it the same as the number of crew I get the same figures as on the USI LS wiki.  However these numbers don't correlate with the numbers in side the Life Support Status Window.

For a habitation module with 1 cupola and 3 hitchhiker bays I do:

30*13 = 390 Base Days

390+1125 Extra Days = 1515

1515*2.76 = 4181.4 Days Habitation

Now in the USI-LS wiki it states that a Kerbal-Month is 30 days, so this gives me 11.61 Kerbal years - but I don't think this is correct.  I think an actual Kerbal Month is 35 days?  This would give me 9.96 Kerbal Years (for one crew member) - which is what is shown in the Life Support Status window.

So - I'm still confused about what the "months" number means in the Life Support Status Window, and also why a Kerbal-Month is 30 days in the calculations for Habitation days, but is actually 35 when working out the total in game time for habitation.

Edited April 7, 2016 by funkcanna

[funkcanna]

Also one more question - when working out Supplies, does the amount of mulch produced per day also reduce by 70% when using a lab for recycling?  This will impact the amount of mulch available to input into the Greenhouse.

[Arglebargle]

Hi, I'm just wondering why a 2.5m can filled with 4.5 tons of food costs more than a 15 ton rocket engine. (By a hefty margin!) Is $67,500 the correct price for the 2.5m nom can? I launch interplanetary probes for less than that. Can I edit the price somehow? I was hoping these would be easy to jettison on deep space voyages.

Excited to use the mod but wow, that's some sticker shock.

[eddiew]

Great to see this updated for 1.1

On a totally random note, thanks for the VetNames setting in the config - I've been wanting to do my next career with custom names and won't have the traditional four starters so this is perfect ^^

[PocketBrotector]

5 hours ago, funkcanna said:

So - I'm still confused about what the "months" number means in the Life Support Status Window, and also why a Kerbal-Month is 30 days in the calculations for Habitation days, but is actually 35 when working out the total in game time for habitation.

One month is 30 days, one year is 426 days

4 hours ago, funkcanna said:

Also one more question - when working out Supplies, does the amount of mulch produced per day also reduce by 70% when using a lab for recycling?  This will impact the amount of mulch available to input into the Greenhouse.

Yes, otherwise kerbals' digestion would violate conservation of mass. 

3 hours ago, Arglebargle said:

Hi, I'm just wondering why a 2.5m can filled with 4.5 tons of food costs more than a 15 ton rocket engine. (By a hefty margin!) Is $67,500 the correct price for the 2.5m nom can? I launch interplanetary probes for less than that. Can I edit the price somehow? I was hoping these would be easy to jettison on deep space voyages.

Excited to use the mod but wow, that's some sticker shock.

The 1.1 update reduces cost of Supplies. Also fertilizer is the way to go for interplanetary voyages - saves mass and is also cheaper per unit

(Have you seen what they charge for astronaut ice cream in today's science museum gift shops though?)

Edited April 7, 2016 by PocketBrotector