The Apollo Applications Program: 1.0 Edition

[loch.ness]

First AAP mission: Skylab deployment

http://i.imgur.com/aJJQmha.png?2

You know, if you think of the Skylab as a creature, you know, like a fine horse, then the workshop wing solar panels are much like wings, right? Then the ATM on what would be the "head", the Docking Adapter, could be like a horn--THANKS M.A. LARSON (click to go to Mission Reports post)

Awesome Skylab and even nicer post! I wasn't able to give you anymore rep yet but I will when I can. I haven't finished reading through it because of work - so its on my "enjoy this later on" list.

Good to see your MOLAB on the way. What's the framework for the wheels? (And where did you get that straight-sided cargo bay on the front end?)

Not a cargo-bay, that's a walled patio on front of the lab with external command seats. The probe cores make this unnecessary but my Kerbals like the option of the view.

The wheels are mounted on fuel tanks inside upside-down MK 2 cargobays (dust shields) Thrust is a little off center, but it has more than ample TWR and fTeruel for a landing (not sure about VTOL after wards - my landing simulation ran into trouble when the relay sat went out of range and Line-of-sight to Kerbin was lost - but everything else was going perfectly - especially considering I couldn't use the NAV ball correctly (Thrust was directed 90% off from pro-grade).

There is a third cargo-bay on it with a surprise for later, the only hint I'll give to that is that there is a reason lights around that part of MOLAB are all red.

[Guest]

The PM - 1 Mission is complete, and my Apollo Program has officially begun.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/123221-Challenge-My-attempt-at-The-Apollo-Applications-Program-1-0-Edition?p=2007285&viewfull=1#post2007285

I think I've very much underestimated the SpaceBucks required to run this whole program. My S-1b launch cost about 77K, and I can easily see S-5 launches running to three times that number. With 17 Missions planned out of a possible 22 proposed (Not counting the AAP Missions which I haven't even planned out yet!), the potential cost of all of this is astronomical. It will be a challenge going forward, but it's also a lot of fun.

As promised, I finally have a score that is above zero.

- Stock. +20 (Use only stock parts)

I didn't actually have the fuel cells unlocked for the PM - 1 Mission, so I cannot claim a score for that yet.

EDIT: Eagle-eyed viewers might spot the reason I just realized this flight doesn't count. So my score now goes back to zero.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Guest

[Death Engineering]

Duna AAP Style

This will be a two-part post encompassing first the launches and orbital assembly of the Duna vessels and their arrival at Duna, then later the landing and (hopefully..) return of the crew. This mission is a combination of various ideas presented as possible Mars solutions such as: Nerva propulsion, refillable SII stages, Duna orbital shuttles for crew transfer, in situ fuel production and multiple landing teams with heavy redundancy.

Using the same Saturn family of launchers used in previous efforts, a total of 10 launches delivered these Duna-bound payloads to LKO:

• (2) Saturn V MLV carrying Duna Ascent Vehicles
  
• (6) Saturn V ELV to refuel the two Duna Ascent Vehicles -
  
• (1) Saturn V MLV with crew habitation module
  
• (1) Saturn V MLV propulsion stage for crew habitation module
  

Although more testing probably would have been a good idea, getting the crew out to Duna orbit was relatively problem-free. The biggest issue encountered was requiring the deployment of one Duna Ascent Vehicle with no control whatsoever (forgot a probecore somehow...). The only option was to set the chute and drop it... amazingly, it worked first try but it appeared many legs were broken in the landing due to not being able to fire the retro-rockets. The second Duna ascent vehicle will go down with an engineer to ensure it lands safe and will be able to repair the second ascent vehicle if needed.

Getting into Duna orbit felt a little cheaty, in regards to heating. Although most vessels were able to use a fairing as a heat shield, the crew vessel had and needed none; it only needed to approach Duna from a higher Pe and aerocapture with a high Ap. Several high Pe passes through Duna's atmosphere later, a high orbit was easily attained. I have heating at 120%.. no issues, still. ?

The small RCS-powered crew shuttles ensured safe transit between the various vessels and also helped FPS-wise by only having to load one "big" vessel at a time. The shuttles, capable of (gracelessly..) landing on Kerbin or Duna, comprise one measure of backup/emergency protocol. There are also two inflatable crew quarters, excess life-support and two ways of returning to Kerbin should the primary system fail.

Next post will land the team, mine the fuel for the ascent vehicles, and explore the surface in the rovers.

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[B-STRK]

http://i.imgur.com/GzINktXl.png

Duna AAP Style

- snip -

And here I am still planning a mere flyby...

Looking good! May I ask what is the green stuff on the crew vehicle are? Haven't noticed them before. Also, the octagonal girders in the same photo?

ADDENDUM: And regarding how you feel about the aerocapture of your unshielded crew vehicle, I wouldn't say it's "cheaty," not even from a real-world dynamics perspective either. From the game's perspective, many of the parts have heat tolerances that real world equivalents probably only dream of (I remember a discussion in the Universal Storage thread on that one). And from the real-world perspective, I remember reading that whenever the SR-71 Blackbird flew a top-speed mission, it practically annealed its titanium skin from the air friction, more or less strengthening it over time. So I guess you could say, so as long as you weren't hitting >75% of the maximum heat tolerance of your weakest part, they were simply being tempered as they run into the Dunan atmo.

Edited June 11, 2015 by B-STRK

[Death Engineering]

And here I am still planning a mere flyby...

Looking good! May I ask what is the green stuff on the crew vehicle are? Haven't noticed them before. Also, the octagonal girders in the same photo?

ADDENDUM: And regarding how you feel about the aerocapture of your unshielded crew vehicle, I wouldn't say it's "cheaty," not even from a real-world dynamics perspective either. From the game's perspective, many of the parts have heat tolerances that real world equivalents probably only dream of (I remember a discussion in the Universal Storage thread on that one). And from the real-world perspective, I remember reading that whenever the SR-71 Blackbird flew a top-speed mission, it practically annealed its titanium skin from the air friction, more or less strengthening it over time. So I guess you could say, so as long as you weren't hitting >75% of the maximum heat tolerance of your weakest part, they were simply being tempered as they run into the Dunan atmo.

Hey.. thanks, B-STRK! The wee greenhouses are 'Nom-O-Matic 5000' waste recyclers from the USI Life Support mod. They convert kerbal waste called 'mulch' into LS. However, it's not a closed system as it takes 1 kerbal two days to excrete (?) enough mulch to create 1 day of LS. I'm really fond of this LS mod as it doesn't add a huge amount of complexity to the game and the LS is a reasonable mass, but it still adds consequence if you send a kerb on a long mission without sufficient LS or electricity.

The girders are from Stock Part Revamp, another highly recommended mod. Also.. most of the habitation/station parts are from the Stockalike Station Parts Expansion. Both of these mods are excellent part additions while still staying mostly-stock.

I like your reasoning on the aerocapturing around Duna. And to be fair, I did need to burn the engine retro a bit to help slow down. On an earlier attempt, I did an aerocapture with a Pe around 21km and several parts turned into smoke from overheating so it is possible to get heat damage, but not too tricky to avoid it. I have yet to go beyond Duna/Eve in 1.02.. I guess I need to head out to Jool and Laythe to get a better feel for high-speed aerobraking.

On another note.. seriously impressed with the creativity in design and storytelling this thread has wrought from everyone here. As a child of the Apollo age, I think it says a lot about Apollo in general when it still inspires people over 50 years later. And, as much as I like the 70's lines of the space shuttle, it really is about as exciting as a long-haul cargo truck (although seeing one launch was impressive).

Arguably, the space shuttle got more work done than Apollo but a reusable shuttle certainly wasn't needed to build the ISS. The link posted by B-STRK earlier in the thread was almost hard to read in the sense that the Apollo/Saturn systems were already fully developed when they were scrapped. Had the production lines and launch schedule kept even at a minimum, with iterative design upgrades along the way, we'd be a lot closer to the visions of Kubrick and Clarke in 2001 A Space Odyssey (1968).

The 'Dreaming a Different Apollo' article reminded me a little of the Avro Arrow story. At least the cancelled mission hardware for Apollo 18 and onward still exists as monument instead of having horrible, unspeakable things done to them like the Avro Arrow. Threads like this, and the popularity of KSP in general, are testament that space exploration remains a priority to many. And that gives me hope.

It [the rocket] will free man from his remaining chains, the chains of gravity which still tie him to this planet. It will open to him the gates of heaven. - Wernher von Braun

[Yukon0009]

And damn I am slow.

[loch.ness]

Are those engines on the base Rhino's?

I do like the lines and the coloring - I'm always disappointed that my SV has no real way to keep the Black and white coloring on the lower stages.

[Yukon0009]

Yes. 16 of them due to the nerf.

[Majorjim!]

Yes. 16 of them due to the nerf.

Sixteen!? Wowza. What is the TWR?

[Yukon0009]

1.03 at first, but grows quite fast.

[Majorjim!]

1.03 at first, but grows quite fast.

I'm amazed it needs that many. Has that one been nerfed heavily at sea level?

[loch.ness]

Yeah, the Rhino now gets 1/2 of its thrust at sea level (or maybe less - I don't remember). Its amazing in vacuum though. I use it on the third stage of my AAP rockets.

[Majorjim!]

Yeah, the Rhino now gets 1/2 of its thrust at sea level (or maybe less - I don't remember). Its amazing in vacuum though. I use it on the third stage of my AAP rockets.

Ouch!

[B-STRK]

I brings stuff.

Copied from Mission Thread Post

Yeah, I now realize in personam the problem Apollo 12 and (initially) 13 faced. Once you've landed on the Mun, documenting the entirety of the succeeding missions becomes redundant. Same launch, same TMI, generally the same deorbit, landing, ascent. So this post stuck to the highlights: bringing the munar rover and ALSEP to the Mun.

And then realizing Podvey forgot the f^%$#*@ probe core to remote-run the experiments, and dropping the antenna! If I wasn't such a merciful game runner, Danny would have a new recruit. This will be fixed, oh this will be fixed, in the next launch.

Which brings me to my next point: I'm deferring 13. I really need to launch the next phase of SunShooter Beyond/AAP. I am treating 13 as if it had flown, however, and also had its accident, and having to return to Kerbin. Considering I've splashed down in the afternoon of Day 30, I am treating the interim until Day 35 as the Apollo 13/SunShooter XIII mission (which I could probably return to, as a separate story in a backup save). So the next launch, and the next chapter, will be in Day 37 or 38 to account for this.

From SunShooter XI: 86 points

Include Lunar Rover on Apollo (12) = 10

Include ALSEP Science Package on Apollo (12) = 10

technically, I have science experiments on XII's landing site. So, even if no probe core and antenna? I promise to fix this in the succeeding chapter(s)!

Total = 106 points (or 96 if that forgetting-the-probe-core bites me)

Death Engineering: Ah, USI-LS! I'm falling behind in my RoverDude stuff updates. Last time I checked, he had plans for mulching, implementation wasn't there yet. (Or was it in the first release, and I wasn't reading the post right?) And as for Revamp, totally agree, though I had to pass on this one since apparently the revamped Mk1-2 won't fit properly in the MRS Boost Protect Cover. But I wanted it certainly for the Mk2 can, at least. I wonder if one could mix-and-match revamp and stock parts, and prune the unwanted duplicates.

loch.ness: C'mon, let's get that MOLAB on the ground already. Let's get that red bay open!

[waterlubber]

Are we allowed to use mods? KW and RSS, as well as Realfuels...

[B-STRK]

Are we allowed to use mods? KW and RSS, as well as Realfuels...

To answer for Greg (while I'm still logged on), yes. Some of us here are running mods. Others are keeping it all stock. First post provides the details, but here are a couple of highlights:

There is +20 points for keeping it stock. On the other hand, if you are using RSS, you'll get a whopping +75 points to add to your current score instead.

Edited June 11, 2015 by B-STRK

[loch.ness]

Work on side projects continues. Apollo 9 veteran Henzer and two newbies Gilyn and Archibald have completed the first length of Apollo 14's Munar endurance mission. Henzer will be remaining on the Munlab station while Gilyn and Archibald will need to remote-land MOLAB and then rendevous with it.

Back at the KSC. Edan, Malcan, and Titha are getting closer to a working shuttle (No reports yet, but I managed suborbital launches with it, now I just need to adjust fuel and consider adding the second stage from the Saturn V back in - I had taken it out thinking it wouldn't be needed but then failed to make orbit. Once the shuttle works I'll need to add a Skylab expansion with a shuttle friendly docking arm.

The observatories are tracking a Near Kerbin asteroid set to enter the Kerbin subsystem in ~ 30 days. If the first shuttle is ready in time Edan has a crazy plan, if not it will be down to Jeb to figure out how to grab it. Edit: Nevermind... I remembered it being A class... but on double checking it is E-class. Edan's crazy idea will wait for a friendly A class.

Edit: Saw your post. Imgur started working today so while I've got more writing to get done I can get you the pictures:

MOLAB's exterior experiments module including a lunar observatory.

Edited June 12, 2015 by loch.ness

[Death Engineering]

AAP Challenge Wrap-up

After nearly three years, the six crew returned safely to Kerbin. With this post, I'll call my work on this challenge complete. It was great fun using this challenge to get a feel for KSP 1.02 aero and found a few sweet mods that I'm sure to use again.

Thanks, GregroxMun for the great challenge!

Again, more testing would have been a good idea. Most of the co-dependent vehicles were never tested together and since I don't use any engineering mods, all ÃŽâ€v needs are done purely by experience and "ballparked". While there was plenty of ÃŽâ€v for the return trip, getting the crew into orbit and rendezvousing with the return craft was very tight for both ascent vehicles.

Turned out it's a good thing they only needed to get close, as I seem to have left off the auxiliary docking ports for the return crafts to use. Instead, we pulled the return craft alongside, bailed out, and performed 6 EVA's to the return craft.

All 6 crew were returned safe in the Big Gemini capsule on a ballistic re-entry after a course correction while just inside Kerbin SOI, tossing the main return craft into deep space. With a Pe of 34km, the crew passed through the atmosphere and into one suborbital trajectory before final landing. Could have gone a little lower, as not even 200 ablator was ablated - good to know for future missions from Duna.

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Tier 1: Normal Apollo Program 136 points

- Saturn Five uses 5 engines on the first stage, 5 engines on the second stage, and one engine on the third

stage. +20

- Free-Return Trajectory until in Mun's SOI. +10

- Lander stored behind a fairing. +10

- Leave Descent Stage on Mun. +5

- Include ALSEP Science Package on Apollo 11-18 +5

- Include Lunar Rover on Apollo 11-18 +10

- Include Lunar Subsatellite on Apollo 11-18.+5

- Launch Escape System. +5

- Use fuel cells for power generation only +10

- Use a Life Support mod +26

- Fly a mission to Minmus using Apollo/Saturn hardware. +30

Tier 2: Apollo Applications Program 105 points

- AAP "base" mission MOLAB +0

- Duna Flyby +20

- Skylab +20

- Munar Base +20

- Eve Flyby +20

- Use fuel plant on Mun in some way for further missions +25

Land and return from Duna, using Apollo-Saturn hardware: ???

I throw myself at the mercy of the OP.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Death Engineering

[Whirligig Girl]

I might be replicating the Pilgrim 1 Observer Spaceship for my entry to the AAP challenge.

It was never a real AAP plan, but I make the rules*, and it is based on Apollo program. Why do I want to do this? I just built a model kit of the ship.

*The rule being that if it was part of a really studied and very serious project that belonged to a name of a real project or something specifically designed to be part of another program, it is not okay, unless it uses Saturn/Apollo tech.

Edited June 13, 2015 by GregroxMun

[loch.ness]

Mission report up to Part 25.

Apollo 14 landing team is on the ground with MOLAB and exploring north of the original LZ.

Apollo 14 CSM is on long term solitary patrol at Mulab.

Back at KSC: Edan, Malcan, and Katlina's project "The Saturn Shuttle" takes its first test flight.

The Shuttle will be slowly replacing Gemini and Apollo CSMS for LKO operations. (Gemini first since an Apollo CSM is still more efficient as an emergency rescue ship and escape pod).

[B-STRK]

http://i.imgur.com/y76vE0Pl.png

AAP Challenge Wrap-up

After nearly three years, the six crew returned safely to Kerbin. With this post, I'll call my work on this challenge complete. It was great fun using this challenge to get a feel for KSP 1.02 aero and found a few sweet mods that I'm sure to use again.

Thanks, GregroxMun for the great challenge!

Again, more testing would have been a good idea. Most of the co-dependent vehicles were ever tested together and since I don't use any engineering mods, all ÃŽâ€v needs are done purely by experience and "ballparked". While there was plenty of ÃŽâ€v for the return trip, getting the crew into orbit and rendezvousing with the return craft was very tight for both ascent vehicles.

Turned out it's a good thing they only needed to get close, as I seem to have left off the auxiliary docking ports for the return crafts to use. Instead, we pulled the return craft alongside, bailed out, and performed 6 EVA's to the return craft.

All 6 crew were returned safe in the Big Gemini capsule on a ballistic re-entry after a course correction while just inside Kerbin SOI, tossing the main return craft into deep space. With a Pe of 34km, the crew passed through the atmosphere and into one suborbital trajectory before final landing. Could have gone a little lower, as not even 200 ablator was ablated - good to know for future missions from Duna.

http://imgur.com/a/8pwVG

Tier 1: Normal Apollo Program 136 points

- Saturn Five uses 5 engines on the first stage, 5 engines on the second stage, and one engine on the third

stage. +20

- Free-Return Trajectory until in Mun's SOI. +10

- Lander stored behind a fairing. +10

- Leave Descent Stage on Mun. +5

- Include ALSEP Science Package on Apollo 11-18 +5

- Include Lunar Rover on Apollo 11-18 +10

- Include Lunar Subsatellite on Apollo 11-18.+5

- Launch Escape System. +5

- Use fuel cells for power generation only +10

- Use a Life Support mod +26

- Fly a mission to Minmus using Apollo/Saturn hardware. +30

Tier 2: Apollo Applications Program 105 points

- AAP "base" mission MOLAB +0

- Duna Flyby +20

- Skylab +20

- Munar Base +20

- Eve Flyby +20

- Use fuel plant on Mun in some way for further missions +25

Land and return from Duna, using Apollo-Saturn hardware: ???

I throw myself at the mercy of the OP.

Well-deserved congratulations for for your journey through this challenge! (Why cannot I give rep at this moment? I must seek other posts of awesome if I'm ever going to unlock the gates for the entries here! ) As I found, it was also a chance for you to revisit old territory. I found your [thread=83870]pre-1.0 AAP playthrough[/thread] while looking for tips on fly-by dV calculations, speaking of which, as you have been here before: would you have any idea of how many days fly-bys of Duna and Eve last, from launch to return-to-Kerbin? Life/Snacks! support calculation purposes, I just need to know if I'll feel better about consigning three kerbals to the cold depths of space for a long, long time. And would my assumption be correct in assuming that the dV to make the transfer burn to Duna/Eve will be the largest component of the dV budget; post-Duna/Eve burns in interplanetary space to make an intercept with Kerbin on the return would be smaller by comparison?

[Death Engineering]

...

Thanks!

The Duna flyby took 942 days and left Kerbin about 45 days after the optimal transfer window. The Eve flyby was only 526 days and departed Kerbin about 30 before the optimal transfer window. Initial burns were definitely the highest ÃŽâ€v burns, but due to Eve's inclination wasn't able to take as much advantage of the slingshot effect as with Duna. As I returned and re-used the MORL after getting out to Duna and back, the Kerbin orbital insertion burn back from Duna was fairly costly as well (it was discarded at the end of the Eve flyby). Both missions needed around 150 m/s ÃŽâ€v burn to get back to Kerbin while in deep space.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Death Engineering

[loch.ness]

Technically I launched this SanSat probe with a Saturn IB... does that mean it counts as Apollo Tech?

P.S. Please note, this is not a serious part of my challenge submission... this is mostly so that I have pictures for another of Bob's rejected ideas later down the line... though I may or may not try to get it to Duna later on.

[B-STRK]

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HAHA, the fun has been doubled!

Except for the part where she does not employ a Lab module (there's a mod with a Mk2-profile lab, I know, but it's not in this install), SunShooter has a MOLAB, a Giant Pressurized Rover on the Mun, and her crew as well, courtesy of the first test of a reusable munar taxi (which was not in the near-term AAP plans, I know, but I became environmentally conscious about the littering of Descent Stages all over the mun ...).

Unless by "Giant" it is properly meant to be a Mk3 or 2.5m at least, and by "LAB" it is properly meant to have a freaking LAB on that thing​, in which case I would like to propose parley to discuss the scoring on this thing.

This mission also doubles as the debut of my attempt at [thread=113778]Fengist's Elcano Circumnavigation Challenge on the Mun[/thread]. So now there are two adventures to be had here: the mainline SunShooter that must now go to Minmus, then into interplanetary space and the exploitation of the Mun and Minmus, and the spinoff Elcano mission to scout out a base site for SunShooter, circumnavigate the Mun, and prove the utility of a long-range, long-duration exploration rover to the program.

Scoring:

The Apollo 12 analogue (SunShooter XII) brought it up to 106. (I can say 106. The non-functional ALSEP is now functional, thanks to a repair job by this mission's crew)

The Skylab mission (SKYbary SL-1 and SL-2) is the first AAP mission, and being mandatory, thus has no score.

This mission (Elcano ES-1 and SunShooter XIV), if it's legit, adds 20 for AAP.

Total, if legit = 126

[Whirligig Girl]

I am sorry I haven't been responding to your posts here, but I have to say, all of this stuff looks great.

@Loch.Ness: "And Admiral, it is the Enterprise."

Edited June 14, 2015 by GregroxMun