Real ISRU Development Thread

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I'm poking at this since I like real fuels and apparently Karbonite's not getting RF configs updated.

First thing I tried to do was build a fuel manufacturing truck for my aircraft on Kerbin. (So I can go mine metal and ship it back to KSC to sell)

Thus I ran into the following problem from the moment I began:

The Fischer-Topsch process engine suffers from a weird glitch. When attempting to place it, it seems to have a tweakscale 'menu' pop up in its tweakable list, but is broken. And when I connect the unit to a node on a vehicle I'm building, it acts as if I released it into empty space, then when I reclick to move it and place it properly, it grabs both the process unit, as well as the vehicle, and won't allow me to release them without 'dumping' them into the parts list again, scrapping everything.

I'm not sure what the cause is. I found the file containing the three process reactors using that model. (Side Note: The other two models have no glitched tweakable menus, and can be placed.)

I noted in the part cfgs that there were scaling values commented out. I tried uncommenting and fully deleting them, and then I noticed the name in the part can't agree on spelling. There's an instance of Fischer as well as Fisher used in several places. I'm unsure if that's intentional or an error. And if an error, which format is intended for use. 'Fisher' is shorter, which might make sense for button-action names, but losing a single 'c' out of the name doesn't really seem to work for shortening things.

Below is the cfg code right from the latest Github grab.

@PART[ISRU]
{
    @name = RealISRU_FischerTropschReaction
//    mesh = ISRU.mu
//    scale = 1
    @title = Fischer-Tropsch Processor
    @manufacturer = Kerbodyne
    @description = 

    @mass = 2.0
    @maxTemp = 2000 // = 3500

    !MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter],* {}

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleResourceConverter
        ConverterName = Fisher-Tropsch Process
        StartActionName = Start Fisher-Tropsch Process
        StopActionName = Stop Fisher-Tropsch Process
        AutoShutdown = false
        GeneratesHeat = true
        UseSpecialistBonus = false

        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Hydrogen
            Ratio = 1
        }
        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = CarbonMonoxide
            Ratio = 0.959370985216787
        }
        OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Kerosene
            Ratio = 0.000667013128209099
            DumpExcess = false
        }
        OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Water
            Ratio = 0.000694171868542514
            DumpExcess = false
        }
    }
}

As far as I can tell, aside from individualized data and the commented-out lines, the code is identical in syntax to the other two functional parts. I'd like to hand-patch this if I can. Does anyone know if there's anything wrong in this code, or if I might need to go look in another file specifically for this?

EDIT:

Wait, I see something. The other two are marked +PART, this one is marked @PART.

EDIT 2:

That undid the glitch. The file RealISRU >> Parts >> MMParts >> ISRU.cfg needs to have the callout @PART replaced with the correct callout +PART

Edited September 13, 2015 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[shoe7ess]

Is there any way to add/edit the config to be able to create some of the larger used fuels to the refinery process in the meantime, or do they have to be implemented into resources in a way that we cant create a temporary patch to allow this type of refinery until it's officially part of the mod?

[regex]

EDIT 2:

That undid the glitch. The file RealISRU >> Parts >> MMParts >> ISRU.cfg needs to have the callout @PART replaced with the correct callout +PART

Nice, thanks. I'll fix that on the next pass, hopefully pretty soon.

Is there any way to add/edit the config to be able to create some of the larger used fuels to the refinery process in the meantime, or do they have to be implemented into resources in a way that we cant create a temporary patch to allow this type of refinery until it's officially part of the mod?

You can make a config for any fuel you want, whether it gets added to Real ISRU is another matter entirely. What fuels are you asking for? This mod already hits a few big ones, like Kerosene and Liquid Hydrogen.

[Siphonophore]

I'm pumped for this.

BTW, will this mod have CTT and CLS support?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

So I managed to set up a kerosene fabrication facility with some atmo-intakes, crackers, and the Fischer Tropsch Process.

It took three trucks and two aircraft to set up.

- Nuclear Reactor Truck (Power, these processes are absurd energy hogs, understandably.)

- Water extraction and cracker truck.

- Atmospheric cracking and extraction truck.

- C-130 design with part of the hull replaced by this mod's parts. (Fischer Tropsch process looks like a nightmare, but I know that FAR just treats things as solid shapes.)

Altogether with a huge VTOL aircraft, I got them on site in the northern desert 450 km west of KSC to set up a base. (Took a few runs). Overall, things are a bit part intensive, especially if you're trying to get the big equipment transferred to a site. All the parts needed in the vehicles murdered physics time and I was running at a 1/4 time ratio from the mess. I might suggest adding 'combined cycle' process parts in which it simply requires anticipated base resources and spits out the products. (In the case of Kerosene, an electricity / water / atmosphere input that assumes to grab the required CO or CO2, and spitting out the Kerosene, water, and Oxygen byproducts.)

Another thing to add is some kind of byproduct disposal system. Like a vent or waste valve part. While making best use of all the mid-process products is an idea, if not preferred method, the manufacturing of fuel products leaves you with a massive supply surplus that shuts the processes down when tanks are full. So an 'overflow vent' for excess products that can be configured for say, dumping all the excess oxygen or water from the kerosene manufacturing

Also, the 'value' of carbon monoxide is absurd. For my cracker truck, I could have just spawned it, ran it, filled up the CO tank, and recovered it for a 200,000 fund profit. Not sure what it's set to right now, only that it's absurd. And that's one of the type b hex tank segments.

[ApolloGuys]

I've been messing around with this mod to try and produce rocket fuel from Mars' atmosphere, as inspired by The Martian. Because I couldn't find a suitable methane-fuelled rocket, I'm producing kerosene and oxygen using the Fischer-Tropsch reaction, solid oxide electrolysis and water gas shift (to recycle the water produced by the Fischer-Tropsch). Inputs are CO2 from the atmosphere and hydrogen, which is imported from Earth.

However, I've come across a problem; I can't seem to liquefy the oxygen I produce. This seems to be the same problem described by adam_ at the very beginning of the 16th page of this thread. I've verified that I have tank space to hold lqdoxygen, that there are no parts preventing flow between the liquefaction array and the tank, and that resources can flow to that tank from other ISRU parts. If you need any more info about the bug, please let me know and I can provide it.

Also, I was hoping to use lqdhydrogen rather than hydrogen gas, but it doesn't look like there is currently a part for turning liquid hydrogen into gas. Is that something that is planned for the mod in the future?

[kerbiloid]

Btw, as far as I know, Fischer-Tropsch process doesn't produce simply a pure kerosene.

It produces a crazy mixture of hydrocarbons, mostly petrol, diesel, propane/butane, etc. Kerosene fraction is just a minor component. (Majors are petrol and diesel fractions).

So, F-T doesn't eliminate an oil refinery plant, it just provides another raw material for it.

Instead of desalinated oil you use a F-T synthetic mixture, with the same need to distillate and rectificate it into different fractions.

As only kerosene is useful as a rocket fuel, so anybody who makes the kerosene by Fischer-Tropsch, must build rectification columns, purifiers, other refinery stuff.

This doesn't look much as real ISRU, this is more like an extrakerbestrial industry.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Btw, as far as I know, Fischer-Tropsch process doesn't produce simply a pure kerosene.

It produces a crazy mixture of hydrocarbons, mostly petrol, diesel, propane/butane, etc. Kerosene fraction is just a minor component. (Majors are petrol and diesel fractions).

So, F-T doesn't eliminate an oil refinery plant, it just provides another raw material for it.

Instead of desalinated oil you use a F-T synthetic mixture, with the same need to distillate and rectificate it into different fractions.

As only kerosene is useful as a rocket fuel, so anybody who makes the kerosene by Fischer-Tropsch, must build rectification columns, purifiers, other refinery stuff.

This doesn't look much as real ISRU, this is more like an extrakerbestrial industry.

Easy Button Solution:

Everything you just said, is built into the FTP part.

Meanwhile, back on Duna...

[kerbiloid]

Easy Button Solution:

Everything you just said, is built into the FTP part.

Yes. And basically a real-world "FTP part" is a plant about a square kilometer with dozens of columns.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Yes. And basically a real-world "FTP part" is a plant about a square kilometer with dozens of columns.

[sparta] This, IS KERBAL! [/sparta]

Seriously though. Don't overthink it.

Or if you want to overthink it, go plant the idea in the Kerbin Side/Kerbal Konstructs threads. He's planning to do foundable bases at some point. An industrial facility of that magnitude would be a perfect fork for it.

[regex]

Actually, that's a really good point on the FTP equipment, probably best to remove it.

E: Actually, I need to do some more reading on RP-1. It's not generally considered a candidate fuel because of its freezing point but the FTP is considered for production of propane in space (maybe as a reference?).

I'll see if I can fix the refrigeration unit tonight and go over the mod.

Edited October 8, 2015 by regex

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

So right now, I'm looking through Real ISRU processes and note that while we have NTO, we don't have the production for UDMH and/or MMH.

Doing a quick look, I found the Olin Raschig process of turning sodium hypochlorite and ammonia into hydrazine.

NaOCl + NH3 -> NH2Cl + NaOH

NH2Cl + NaOH + NH3(anhyd.) -> N2H4 + H2O + NaCl

From the looks of it, we'll need a process that creates the NaOCl. Main one I've found is the Hooker Process.

Cl2 + 2 NaOH → NaCl + NaOCl + H2O

However, this requires the creation of a process for Sodium Hydroxide, and Cl2.

Luckily, it looks like we have the Chloralkali (Electrolosis of NaCl) process that uses salt in water to produce Cl2, NaOH, and H2. Which means all we need is the resource 'salt' (NaCl)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

So we can run the Chloralkali process, into the Hooker process, into an Olin Raschig process. The only additional resource needed is common salt. We already have the ammonia needed.

EDIT: Note.

I'm aware Hydrazine isn't straight MMH. I'm checking and working on reaction chains right now.

EDIT 2: Got it.

================================================ Sodium Hydroxide
Salt Water Electrolosis (Chloralkali Process)
2NaCl + 2H2O → Cl2 + H2 + 2NaOH

Ratios

Input Water 2
Input NaCl  2  (Salt... From Ore?)


Output: Cl2  1 (Chlorine)
Output: H2   1 (Hydrogen)
Output: NaOH 2 (Sodium Hydroxide)



================================================= Sodium Hypochlorite
Hooker Process
Cl2 + 2 NaOH → NaCl + NaOCl + H2O

Ratios

Input: Cl2  1   (Chlorine)
Input: NaOH 2.0 (Sodium Hydroxide)

Output: NaCl  1 (Salt)
Output: NaOCl 1 (Sodium Hypochlorite)
Output: Water 1


=============================================== Methonol
Methonol Process
CO + 2 H2 → CH3OH

Ratios

Input: CO 1
Input: H2 2

Output: CH3OH (Methonol)


=============================================== Methylamine*
Methylamine Process
CH3OH + NH3 → CH3NH2 + H2O

Ratios

Input: CH3OH   1 (Methonol)
Input: NH3     1 (Ammonia)

Output: CH3NH2 1 (Methylamine)
Output: Water  1



=============================================== Hydrazine
Olin Raschig Process (Two Steps)
NaOCl + NH3 → NH2Cl + NaOH
Then
NH2Cl + NaOH + NH3(anhyd.) -> N2H4 + H2O + NaCl


Combined Ratios

Input: NaOCl  1 (Sodium Hypochlorite)
Input: NH3    2 (Ammonia)

Mid Process: NH2Cl (Chloramine**)

Output: N2H4  1  (Hydrazine)
Output: Water 1
Output: Salt  1


=============================================== MMH (Monomethylhydrazine)

"Monomethylhydrazine may be produced by a modified Raschig process; methylamine* is substituted for ammonia in the reaction with chloramine**"


Modified Olin Raschig Process (Two Steps)
NaOCl + NH3 → NH2Cl + NaOH
Then
NH2Cl + NaOH + CH3NH2 → CH6N2 + H2O + NaCL

Input: NaOCl    1 (Sodium Hypochlorite)
Input: NH3      1 (Ammonia)
Input: CH3NH2   1 (Methylamine)

Output: CH6N2   1 (MMH)
Output: Water   1
Output: Salt    1

Edited October 13, 2015 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[k88a314]

NaOCl + NH3 -> NH2Cl + NaOH

NH2Cl + NaOH + NH3(anhyd.) -> N2H4 + H2O + NaCl

You're telling me I could make rocket fuel out of bleach and windex?

actually given the chloramine and the fact that the end product is hydrazine I've probably never had a worse idea in my life. I'm gonna go ahead and not do that

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

You're telling me I could make rocket fuel out of bleach and windex?

actually given the chloramine and the fact that the end product is hydrazine I've probably never had a worse idea in my life. I'm gonna go ahead and not do that

Be kind of difficult anyway.

The first reaction of the pair is done at 5 C

The second is done at high pressure at 130 C.

We don't care about that, though. We don't need to simulate temps.

What's really going to blow your mind is that poisonous mushrooms produce rocket fuel. Or rather, what quickly turns into it. Gyromitrin, found in certain toxic mushrooms, hydrolizes into MMH.

Nature man. It's crazy.

[DBowman]

Crazy indeed. Are these meaningful quantities / concentrations? The mushrooms are toxic but the growing conditions are pretty benign - is there any scope for this info to be 'useful' in addition to being interesting? I'd guess not - but you never know - maybe for some Watney-esque scenario?

[Autochton]

I'm seeing rocket fuel greenhouses now.

[regex]

We don't care about that, though. We don't need to simulate temps.

KSP has given us a full thermal system, no reason not to.

Crazy indeed. Are these meaningful quantities / concentrations? The mushrooms are toxic but the growing conditions are pretty benign - is there any scope for this info to be 'useful' in addition to being interesting? I'd guess not - but you never know - maybe for some Watney-esque scenario?

I doubt that, otherwise we'd have seen some sort of proposal including it.

E: Also, where are we getting sodium hypochlorite in other environments? Methylamines from asteroids, for sure.

Edited October 14, 2015 by regex

[Spartan_MiniMe]

There appears to be a bug with the Fischer-Tropsch Processor. Whenever I attempt to attach it via either node, that node disappears, the part doesn't attach, and when I flip it around to attach via the other node, the same thing happens.

Edit: I'm attempting to fix the problem in the .cfg file. Will let you know how it goes.

Edit 2: Fixed the problem. There is a line in the .cfg file that should read +PART, but instead reads @PART. Just a simple typo.

Fixed Config

Edited October 18, 2015 by Spartan_MiniMe

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

There appears to be a bug with the Fischer-Tropsch Processor. Whenever I attempt to attach it via either node, that node disappears, the part doesn't attach, and when I flip it around to attach via the other node, the same thing happens.

Edit: I'm attempting to fix the problem in the .cfg file. Will let you know how it goes.

Edit 2: Fixed the problem. There is a line in the .cfg file that should read +PART, but instead reads @PART. Just a simple typo.

Fixed Config

I reported and gave them the fix several pages ago.

[regex]

I fixed the FTP converter in the repo, thanks for the reminders. I' ve been playing around with the fridge but I'm not sure what's causing the issue. Tried adding crossfeed modules to no avail.

[ApolloGuys]

I've found another problem while testing out my ISRU plant. Now that I've found some rockets that use LqdMethane+LqdOxygen (from the SpaceY modpack), I'm going back to using the Sabatier reaction (especially if the Fischer-Tropsch reaction is getting removed).

Currently, I'm just hyper-editing the plant onto Mars (in Real Solar System). However, it seems that the atmospheric intakes don't work on Mars. Right-clicking them does nothing at all, no right click menu appears at all. I can right click other ISRU components, and they appear to work when provided with the correct resource, it's just the atmospheric intakes.

I've tried both intakes, with the same results. I've also hyper-edited the same plant onto Venus and found the same issue.

[regex]

(especially if the Fischer-Tropsch reaction is getting removed).

Still mulling over that one. It was an actual proposal so I can only assume they've found some way to make kerosene without a large fractioning tower or some such. The process would produce a very large amount of heat, however.

However, it seems that the atmospheric intakes don't work on Mars. Right-clicking them does nothing at all, no right click menu appears at all. I can right click other ISRU components, and they appear to work when provided with the correct resource, it's just the atmospheric intakes.

I've tried both intakes, with the same results. I've also hyper-edited the same plant onto Venus and found the same issue.

Okay, I'll look into that, thanks. I lost an install due to ... well, stupidity, really, where I had working Kuck equipment and intakes so the repo is a bit mangled right now. I'll get things back up to scratch soon enough.

[Spartan_MiniMe]

I reported and gave them the fix several pages ago.

My bad. I'll look through the rest of the thread next time:D

[Daishi]

Any progress on the modelling front, Dr Jet? Hope you've overcome that Sabatier problem.

[X10Z]

Would you consider putting this on CKAN?