The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge - 1.0 to 1.3

[Irvin]

Hi,

I'm trying to build a ship for this challenge, I know my ships and kerbals have to travel to jool as a single ship but when am I allowed to separate docking ports ? Do I have to wait for a stable orbit in the Jool system or is it enough to be inside Pol's orbit ?

I couldn't find an answer to this question, sorry if it has been asked a thousand times already.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Irvin

[sdj64]

23 hours ago, HoloYolo said:

@sdj64 A lot of low mass challenges and just albums in general lead me back to the first page? Why is that?

When the forum upgrade happened it broke all the links and I haven't gone through and fixed them, sorry.

19 hours ago, DBowman said:

I had been working on a Jool 5 Apollo Style for the Apollo Applications Challenge ( recreate milestone Apollo missions, then go on to projected missions, and beyond - more fun that it might sound ). If you are using Apollo launchers the natural way to do it is to throw landers at Jool and then (irl after you know the landers are there...) throw 3 guys in 'a can' to do Moons of Jool Orbit Rendezvous - but that would fall outside the 'one big ship in Kerbin orbit to launch' part of this challenge.

Is it an artificial constraint to impose the 'one launch from Kerbin'? Especially since you can send a second fuel only craft... Actually at what point can the ship drop landers? I mean there is deltaV benefit in not lugging landers around so they are (may be depending on design) better off doing individual moon encounters - so they can undock in Jool SOI? out of Kerbin SOI? The 'one ship Jool transfer burn' thing sounds a bit artificial given you almost always at least throw parts away that are specialised for particular moons. Don't get me wrong it's a great fun classic challenge exactly as it stands - but since you invited comment this is what occurs to me.

Also do you have a separate ranking for life supported attempts?

You can separate your ship once you're in Jool's SOI, as the rules stand now.  The one ship rule prevents multiple unrelated single-moon missions but there might be better ways.  Possibly "All Kerbals on the mission must fly together while in the Sun's SOI.".  But putting together a giant mothership is very much part of the spirit of the challenge so I don't know if it's such a good idea to change.

It would have been a greater risk for Apollo if they sent the LM unmanned to the moon first, by that logic it might be a good idea to bring your landers with you on the way there.  It doesn't even seem that difficult with your setup so far, but you might need more fuel for your transfer stage and to get around the Jool system.

7 hours ago, Empyrean said:

Hi sdj64! Thankyou very much for your curation of this challenge. I've been working on a plan for what might be considered a level above Jebediah's level, whereby I have to have one Kerbal on each moon simultaneously. It requires quite a payload (because the landers can't be reused), and quite a few transfers, but I've had great fun designing it so far. I'd be glad to know if you thought it was an interesting enough constraint to include.

E

I don't think anyone has done that before, but it sounds like a fun challenge!  

4 hours ago, Irvin said:

Hi,

I'm trying to build a ship for this challenge, I know my ships and kerbals have to travel to jool as a single ship but when am I allowed to separate docking ports ? Do I have to wait for a stable orbit in the Jool system or is it enough to be inside Pol's orbit ?

I couldn't find an answer to this question, sorry if it has been asked a thousand times already.

Once in Jool's SOI you can separate, you don't have to be on a stable orbit.

[Irvin]

Thanks @sdj64

[Derpiderp]

I did the Jool 5 (2nd lvl) in  1.1 prerelease.It took 16 hours, 513 quickloads and 51 quicksaves.

Here it is.

 

Spare Delta V stats

• Tylo Lander: 1200 m/s
• Vall Lander: 400 m/s
• Laythe SSTO: 700 m/s
• Bop Lander: 2000 m/s
• Pol Lander and Return Stage: 3000 m/s
• Nuclear Transfer Stage: 4000 m/s

Mods used

• E.V.E
• Better Burn Time
• Kerbal Engineer
• Better Crew Assignment
• Default Action Groups

Information

I was plagued the entire flight by Phantom Forces and glitchy Orbit lines. For example I was thrown away by Vall in a very buggy way multiple times, even though I had never an Encounter with it while warping to an Encounter with Laythe. The Vall and Bop Lander like to hover over the ground(with SAS on) or to spin out of control(with SAS off). My Encounter with Pol was bugged in the Mapview and I had to guess how low my Periapsis was.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Derpiderp

[sdj64]

@Derpiderp that was rather headache-inducing fast-forwarded so much.  Nonetheless I think I caught enough of it to award you the completion on Level 2!  I liked your ion return craft and your plane.  Overall a very efficient mission.

 

 

Will @Matt Lowne please come to the front desk?  There's an unclaimed Jool 5 Level 1 badge with your name on it.

[max_creative]

24 minutes ago, sdj64 said:

Will @Matt Lowne please come to the front desk?  There's an unclaimed Jool 5 Level 1 badge with your name on it.

Oh hey! Good point! I should do the jool 5 sometime soon!

[March Unto Torment]

So! I'm going to undertake the challenge soon. And it's going to be, uh, an 'interesting' iteration, mostly because - in terms of sheer tonnage - it most likely dwarfs any Jool-5 attempt in history.

However, before I start, I have a few questions that I'd like to ask, which will mostly be for the purpose of determining how 'official' my attempt will be.

1. Is the mod 'Near Future Spacecraft' allowed? It's one of Nerteas, and all it contains (if I recall correctly) is two command pods (an alternate 2.5m module and a 3.75m module) and two low-profile 3.75m engines (comparable to an upscaled Terrier, if you will).
2. How rigid are the rules regarding mods? The core of the mothership is a space station I have in KEO, which (because it wasn't originally designed for Jool-5) has eight (?) Near Future Electrical batteries on it, each containing 800 charge. I can't really see it being a balance issue at all, and I'd be happy to block off electrical flow (the ship gets plenty of power from its forty-odd Gigantor panels, even at Jool), but I wanted to check anyway.
3. Does anyone remember the tonnage record for Jool-5? The largest I'm aware of was Kidonia, which was around 800 tonnes on departure. Does anyone know of any larger missions? I want to know what I'm up against

Anyone who can help me out with these would be really helpful! I'm really excited to get started

Best regards,

 - March Unto Torment

[iLikeRovers]

@ March Unto Torment

How easy is it to substitute the mod parts for stock parts? If the parts are similar capability then swaps should be ok?

[sdj64]

17 hours ago, March Unto Torment said:

So! I'm going to undertake the challenge soon. And it's going to be, uh, an 'interesting' iteration, mostly because - in terms of sheer tonnage - it most likely dwarfs any Jool-5 attempt in history.

However, before I start, I have a few questions that I'd like to ask, which will mostly be for the purpose of determining how 'official' my attempt will be.

1. Is the mod 'Near Future Spacecraft' allowed? It's one of Nerteas, and all it contains (if I recall correctly) is two command pods (an alternate 2.5m module and a 3.75m module) and two low-profile 3.75m engines (comparable to an upscaled Terrier, if you will).
2. How rigid are the rules regarding mods? The core of the mothership is a space station I have in KEO, which (because it wasn't originally designed for Jool-5) has eight (?) Near Future Electrical batteries on it, each containing 800 charge. I can't really see it being a balance issue at all, and I'd be happy to block off electrical flow (the ship gets plenty of power from its forty-odd Gigantor panels, even at Jool), but I wanted to check anyway.
3. Does anyone remember the tonnage record for Jool-5? The largest I'm aware of was Kidonia, which was around 800 tonnes on departure. Does anyone know of any larger missions? I want to know what I'm up against

Anyone who can help me out with these would be really helpful! I'm really excited to get started

Best regards,

 - March Unto Torment

1. Yes, it should be allowed.  Nothing is too OP, the small engine could be helpful for certain cases of Jool 5 landers though.

2. I'll let you slide with the batteries, NF batteries are stock-balanced.  The capacitors and nuclear reactors are OP.

3. Kidonia never finished, and I don't think there was any attempt bigger than that.  Rudi1291 had a 550 ton mission, which may or may not be the largest.

Another question relevant to your mission: since the station is already in orbit, do you have screenshots of the launches for it?  Launching the ship is part of the challenge and it requires screenshots too.

[March Unto Torment]

4 hours ago, sdj64 said:

Another question relevant to your mission: since the station is already in orbit, do you have screenshots of the launches for it?  Launching the ship is part of the challenge and it requires screenshots too.

Unfortunately, no screenshots of the launches for the main space station  My steam overlay broke for a while (caused weird flickering blocks on-screen - anyone else seen that?), and I've only recently managed to re-enable it (turns out I need to launch through Steam, not through the .exe).

I will be providing screenshots of all the launches of the 'mission' components, though (my assorted landers, my enormous transfer stages, etc.), which will presumably verify my ability to put multiple outsize 250-tonne payloads in KEO and dock them. Compared to some of the stuff I'm launching (ever tried to get eighty LV-Ns into orbit in a single launch? Me neither, but I'm about to have to try), the station itself was pretty easy.

4 hours ago, sdj64 said:

1. Yes, it should be allowed.  Nothing is too OP, the small engine could be helpful for certain cases of Jool 5 landers though.

I'm not using the 3.75m engine for any of my landers, mostly because I don't have any 3.75m landers (although it is used on one of my launchers). But I do believe it's stock-balanced (6t, 525kN vac. thrust, 345 vac. ISP). Mostly, I'm just using the 3.75m command module in one of my habitats and the 2.5m module as the 'bridge' of the ship (it has nice big windows!).

4 hours ago, sdj64 said:

2. I'll let you slide with the batteries, NF batteries are stock-balanced.  The capacitors and nuclear reactors are OP.

Thanks! No nuclear reactors (my entire transfer stage is LV-Ns), and I've never worked out what the capacitors are for, so I have none of those either.

4 hours ago, sdj64 said:

3. Kidonia never finished, and I don't think there was any attempt bigger than that.  Rudi1291 had a 550 ton mission, which may or may not be the largest.

Haha! If 550 tonnes is the largest we've ever seen, then make no mistake, this thing will blow it out of the water...

Edited April 10, 2016 by March Unto Torment

[Gravaar]

On 4/9/2016 at 5:54 PM, March Unto Torment said:

So! I'm going to undertake the challenge soon. And it's going to be, uh, an 'interesting' iteration, mostly because - in terms of sheer tonnage - it most likely dwarfs any Jool-5 attempt in history.

 

Be careful what you wish for  Unless you mean recent history

Two years ago , I launched a Jool-5 mission. Single launch, no refueling, no docking till i arrived at Jool

It weighed in at about 26000 tons on the launch pad, And put 2800 tons into a 250 x 300 orbit before heading off to Jool

This challenge has been going for a VERY long time

And i am not certain if it was the largest launch even then, as there have been some true monster craft designed and launched, so much so, that Ziv placed a limit on the build sizes 

P.s. I think it had 48 LV-Ns for the transfer stage

Edited April 10, 2016 by Gravaar

[March Unto Torment]

3 hours ago, Gravaar said:

It weighed in at about 26000 tons on the launch pad, And put 2800 tons into a 250 x 300 orbit before heading off to Jool

Neat! That thing looks really cool.

Mine's still larger, but the most I've ever had on the pad at any given time was about 3,500 tonnes (the 1.0-era aero makes gargantuan, ultra-wide launchers more or less impossible). It's basically been assembled in blocks, and will be fuelled in KEO by a large-scale Minmus mining ship.

Mad respect for being ballsy enough to put 26,000 tonnes on the pad, though. And without even using SpaceY!

P.S. I'm no longer sure that I take the record for 'in history', although I feel reasonably confident that I'll still be able to claim the title for 1.0-era crafts.

Edited April 10, 2016 by March Unto Torment

[Gravaar]

18 hours ago, March Unto Torment said:

P.S. I'm no longer sure that I take the record for 'in history', although I feel reasonably confident that I'll still be able to claim the title for 1.0-era crafts.

Most likely

Most of us gave up really large builds when the aero changed (although they are fun to build and launch)

Not sure about Whackjob

 

[March Unto Torment]

25 minutes ago, Gravaar said:

Not sure about Whackjob

Full disclosure, Whackjob is basically my Senpai 

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Can you clear SXT?

[sdj64]

1.1 yay!

 

Changes to the Jool-5 to watch out for:

-Re-worded a few of the rules for simplicity and clarity.  Should not disqualify any design that was previously qualified.

-Got rid of some obsolete and/or redundant text

-ISRU can now be used on any level.

-Official support for Grand Tours (I would defer to the Ultimate Challenge on this one, but given the legacy of people submitting GTs here, and the different rule-set, I think there's room for both)

-Returned the Level 1 Low Mass challenge description to the OP

 

With the new ability that labs can be recovered for science points in 1.1, I may have to include a rule that addresses lab-spam.  Probably going to limit it to one lab.

 

@OrbitalBuzzsaw Probably will be okay.  I'll take another look when it updates to 1.1.

[Luovahulluus]

5 hours ago, sdj64 said:

-ISRU can now be used on any level.

Please don't do that. It's going to change the nature of the whole challenge. This is supposed to be the mission we design rockets way larger than anything before. ISRU makes the rockets too small.

[JedTech]

5 hours ago, sdj64 said:

-ISRU can now be used on any level.

Cool, KSP has changed, ISRU is in the stock game now. I think it is time for the challenge to change too.

[Derpiderp]

I did the Mission in the 1.1 prerealese. Shouldn't I be in the 1.1 Hall of Fame?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Derpiderp

[Interplanet Janet]

Do you gain or lose any points for using gravity assists to get to Jool (e.g. KGA, EKKGA) and/or other moons in the system?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Interplanet Janet

[sdj64]

19 hours ago, Luovahulluus said:

Please don't do that. It's going to change the nature of the whole challenge. This is supposed to be the mission we design rockets way larger than anything before. ISRU makes the rockets too small.

19 hours ago, JedTech said:

Cool, KSP has changed, ISRU is in the stock game now. I think it is time for the challenge to change too.

Cool, one point for, one against.  Because the challenge has so much history every small change will make some people disappointed.  But I think that with the label for ISRU there is still some separation between ISRU and non-ISRU entries.  The change was to encourage different kinds of ISRU entries, and I think if you look back to 1.0, most of the entries were actually more complex than the ones that brought their fuel with them.  I did not intend to take away the motivation to avoid ISRU, I hope that most challengers realize that and there will continue to be a mix of entries with and without.  Remember that you're not competing against the other entries, but alongside them, so be creative and go your own way!

Also, I don't think that ISRU would allow an even lighter low mass challenger, given the weight of the unit itself and that you can't manufacture Xenon it would not be much of an advantage.

 

17 hours ago, Derpiderp said:

I did the Mission in the 1.1 prerealese. Shouldn't I be in the 1.1 Hall of Fame?

Yes you should, thanks for pointing that out.  Fixed.

 

5 hours ago, Interplanet Janet said:

Do you gain or lose any points for using gravity assists to get to Jool (e.g. KGA, EKKGA) and/or other moons in the system?

You gain some free Delta-V!

Since there isn't really a "points" leaderboard it isn't necessary to use gravity assists, but it can help to make your ship smaller and lighter.  This is especially helpful for the low mass challenge.

[Nefrums]

I see no problem with having different levels of compilation for isru entries, and @sdj64 is right, it is not worth it for low mass entries.

I've been thinking of doing a 1.1 entry.   It will not be as good as the 1.0.4 entries (pre aero heating change that made draggy docking port the only viable nosecone).

I spent some time experimenting yesterday and managed to build a 1.6t tylo lander that "should" work 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Nefrums

[Sean24135]

My laythe lander broke(and doesn't have a ladder) en-route to Jool. Had to restart entire mission :(.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Sean24135

[parzr]

On 4/9/2016 at 3:54 AM, March Unto Torment said:

So! I'm going to undertake the challenge soon. And it's going to be, uh, an 'interesting' iteration, mostly because - in terms of sheer tonnage - it most likely dwarfs any Jool-5 attempt in history.

However, before I start, I have a few questions that I'd like to ask, which will mostly be for the purpose of determining how 'official' my attempt will be.

1. Is the mod 'Near Future Spacecraft' allowed? It's one of Nerteas, and all it contains (if I recall correctly) is two command pods (an alternate 2.5m module and a 3.75m module) and two low-profile 3.75m engines (comparable to an upscaled Terrier, if you will).
2. How rigid are the rules regarding mods? The core of the mothership is a space station I have in KEO, which (because it wasn't originally designed for Jool-5) has eight (?) Near Future Electrical batteries on it, each containing 800 charge. I can't really see it being a balance issue at all, and I'd be happy to block off electrical flow (the ship gets plenty of power from its forty-odd Gigantor panels, even at Jool), but I wanted to check anyway.
3. Does anyone remember the tonnage record for Jool-5? The largest I'm aware of was Kidonia, which was around 800 tonnes on departure. Does anyone know of any larger missions? I want to know what I'm up against

Anyone who can help me out with these would be really helpful! I'm really excited to get started

Best regards,

 - March Unto Torment

Personally I've done 2 missions; the first 1400 parts 9k tons Landing a science lab on all the moons http://imgur.com/a/JxgjP and the second in the 4k ton range that had a stock detachable rover http://imgur.com/a/Yyg2H#0

[Nefrums]

Here is my fourth entry for this challenge (this time in 1.1).  I have improved almost all parts since my last attempt and managed to get the mass down to just over 12.5 t.

I used the same 4 engine design as last time.  One rapier for Kerbin and Laythe accent, one spark for Tylo and 2 ion engines for everything else.

Mods used: KER, Precition node, and mechJeb+module manager to not require the mechJeb parts.  (Only Smart S.A.S was used from MechJeb)