The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge - 1.0 to 1.3

[Human Person]

I'm giving this a try. Since I'm a big fan of LKO-assemblies I'll restrict myself to the Launchpad-Mark-2. However I will do mining.

I'll also bring a lab and a couple of relays and science-Probes.

[Angelo Kerman]

I'm in the process of updating and revising my Deep Space Exploration Vessels (DSEV) mod, a mod that sprung from @DasValdez's desire to replicate the mission found in NASA's Realizing "2001: A Space Odyssey": Piloted Spherical Torus Nuclear Fusion Propulsion. In the paper, the Discovery II could send 6-12 crew to either Jupiter or Saturn in less than a year utilizing a spherical torus fusion engine powered by deuterium/helium-3 fusion pellets and liquid hydrogen. According to the paper, delta-v requirements were calibrated for optimal launch windows, though other mission profiles were also considered.

As I work on my updates and revisions, I'm looking at reworking the Supernova fusion engine; right now, it gives my Kerbal Discovery II reference design far too much delta-v- so much so that it can probably go there and back again without refueling. What I want to do is re-calibrate the engine so that once completed, my reference design can make it to Jool and a couple of its moons like Bop, Vall, or Laythe with a small delta-v reserve. As with the NASA paper, you'd then have to fly the Discovery's fuel tanks down to one of the moons to refuel at a pre-existing mining station. That's where I need some help from the Jool-5 crowd.

I haven't been to Jool since KSP 0.25, and that was with a KSPI warpship, so I don't really know the delta-v requirements. From the delta-v map I found, the numbers appear to be:

Spoiler

To Jool
LKO to interplanetary space: 950
Jool Plane Change: 270
Jool Intercept: 980 (with 2-year travel time)
Jool Orbit: 760
Total To Jool: 2960

Refueling Stop (ISRU): Pol
Jool To Pol Intercept: 150
Pol Plane Change: 700
Pol Orbit: 800
Pol Departure: ?
Total to Bop: ~1650

Exploration
Jool To Vall Intercept: 620
Vall Orbit: 910
Vall Departure: ?
Total to Vall: ~1530

Jool To Tylo Intercept: 400
Tylo Orbit: 1100
Tylo Departure: ?
Total to Tylo: ~1500

Jool To Laythe Intercept: 930
Laythe Orbit: 1030
Laythe Departure: ?
Total to Laythe: ~1960

Bop To Jool Intercept: 220
Bop Plane Change: 2440
Bop Orbit: 900:
Bop Departure: ?
Total to Bop: ~3560

Back To Kerbin
Jool to Kerbin: 980?
Kerbin Plane Change: 270:
Kerbin Orbit: 950?

Do these numbers appear to be accurate? For those who've completed the Jool-5, what delta-v did they end up needing, preferably without aerobraking?

For reference, here is the NASA Discovery II that I'm basing my mod on:

Spoiler

And here is what I have thus far with my revised reference design (as always, my mods are inspired by NASA but not necessarily an attempt to make an exact replica, so there are some differences):

Spoiler

Thanks for your help.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Angel-125

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Procedural question @sdj64. Am I allowed to launch fuel stores (2500 LF for a nuke ship with 11k when full) ahead of time that will stay in orbit of Laythe, Vall, and Pol? May I ahead aboard the relevant fuel stores, as my mothership sacrifices the ability to carry more than a very small lander and still complete the mission without refueling in exchange for the ability to land on the two smaller moons, as well as an onboard ISRU, although I cannot use that at Jool, as my ship has only two Gigantors for power, being a repurposed Duna crew carrier for my Duna colony program, as I intend to use only repurposed hardware for this mission, and my Iris-class Duna shuttle, which I plan to use as the Laythe, Tylo, and Vall lander will not fit within mass or size limits for cargo of the Icarus-class exploration cruiser without refueling, as the Icarus-class was built to be paired with the relatively incapable, if light and compact Falcon-class lander (an old design out of my naming convention for such things, built for my first Duna missions), which are, unfortunately, not up to my goal of 1lander5moons (Is it dated reference day already? lol). With my reuse-all-the-hardware policy (I will use old Mun test hardware shuttles and an existing mothership), and being the loophole-searching *bleep* I am, I find it nessecary to request confirmation of my right within the rules to do this before attempting the challenge at Level 2, which I will be performing the challenge under.

Edit :

Edited February 16, 2017 by OrbitalBuzzsaw

[sdj64]

On 2/14/2017 at 3:41 PM, Angel-125 said:

I'm in the process of updating and revising my Deep Space Exploration Vessels (DSEV) mod, a mod that sprung from @DasValdez's desire to replicate the mission found in NASA's Realizing "2001: A Space Odyssey": Piloted Spherical Torus Nuclear Fusion Propulsion. In the paper, the Discovery II could send 6-12 crew to either Jupiter or Saturn in less than a year utilizing a spherical torus fusion engine powered by deuterium/helium-3 fusion pellets and liquid hydrogen. According to the paper, delta-v requirements were calibrated for optimal launch windows, though other mission profiles were also considered.

As I work on my updates and revisions, I'm looking at reworking the Supernova fusion engine; right now, it gives my Kerbal Discovery II reference design far too much delta-v- so much so that it can probably go there and back again without refueling. What I want to do is re-calibrate the engine so that once completed, my reference design can make it to Jool and a couple of its moons like Bop, Vall, or Laythe with a small delta-v reserve. As with the NASA paper, you'd then have to fly the Discovery's fuel tanks down to one of the moons to refuel at a pre-existing mining station. That's where I need some help from the Jool-5 crowd.

I haven't been to Jool since KSP 0.25, and that was with a KSPI warpship, so I don't really know the delta-v requirements. From the delta-v map I found, the numbers appear to be:

  Hide contents

To Jool
LKO to interplanetary space: 950
Jool Plane Change: 270
Jool Intercept: 980 (with 2-year travel time)
Jool Orbit: 760
Total To Jool: 2960

Refueling Stop (ISRU): Pol
Jool To Pol Intercept: 150
Pol Plane Change: 700
Pol Orbit: 800
Pol Departure: ?
Total to Bop: ~1650

Exploration
Jool To Vall Intercept: 620
Vall Orbit: 910
Vall Departure: ?
Total to Vall: ~1530

Jool To Tylo Intercept: 400
Tylo Orbit: 1100
Tylo Departure: ?
Total to Tylo: ~1500

Jool To Laythe Intercept: 930
Laythe Orbit: 1030
Laythe Departure: ?
Total to Laythe: ~1960

Bop To Jool Intercept: 220
Bop Plane Change: 2440
Bop Orbit: 900:
Bop Departure: ?
Total to Bop: ~3560

Back To Kerbin
Jool to Kerbin: 980?
Kerbin Plane Change: 270:
Kerbin Orbit: 950?

Do these numbers appear to be accurate? For those who've completed the Jool-5, what delta-v did they end up needing, preferably without aerobraking?

For reference, here is the NASA Discovery II that I'm basing my mod on:

  Reveal hidden contents

And here is what I have thus far with my revised reference design (as always, my mods are inspired by NASA but not necessarily an attempt to make an exact replica, so there are some differences):

  Reveal hidden contents

Thanks for your help.

Most of your numbers appear in the ballpark.  Mostly, you won't go to a certain Jool orbit (I have no idea what orbit your numbers assume) between the moons so those will be lower.  Tylo departure is about 900, Laythe about 650?  Pol and Bop departures depend so much on where you're going.  Bop plane change does not take anywhere near 2440.  Kerbin return can vary widely and often takes more than 950 if you're avoiding the atmosphere.  Lots of these can be reduced further with gravity assists, so your ship can stay well away from atmospheres but still save considerably.

The ship looks cool!  Is it intended to carry a lander?  I don't think it was IRL but you might have other plans.

 

29 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Procedural question @sdj64. Am I allowed to launch fuel stores (2500 LF for a nuke ship with 11k when full) ahead of time that will stay in orbit of Laythe, Vall, and Pol? May I ahead aboard the relevant fuel stores, as my mothership sacrifices the ability to carry more than a very small lander and still complete the mission without refueling in exchange for the ability to land on the two smaller moons, as well as an onboard ISRU, although I cannot use that at Jool, as my ship has only two Gigantors for power, being a repurposed Duna crew carrier for my Duna colony program, as I intend to use only repurposed hardware for this mission, and my Iris-class Duna shuttle, which I plan to use as the Laythe, Tylo, and Vall lander will not fit within mass or size limits for cargo of the Icarus-class exploration cruiser without refueling, as the Icarus-class was built to be paired with the relatively incapable, if light and compact Falcon-class lander (an old design out of my naming convention for such things, built for my first Duna missions), which are, unfortunately, not up to my goal of 1lander5moons (Is it dated reference day already? lol). With my reuse-all-the-hardware policy (I will use old Mun test hardware shuttles and an existing mothership), and being the loophole-searching *bleep* I am, I find it nessecary to request confirmation of my right within the rules to do this before attempting the challenge at Level 2, which I will be performing the challenge under.

Edit :

Alright, so your question boils down to: can you send your refueling mission ahead of time?  The answer is, yes.  The original intent of that rule was to rescue a ship that ran out of fuel by accident, not to plan to supply a ship that can't make it without.  Don't worry, though, the hardware reuse idea is cool and if you need a fuel drop, go for it!

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Just now, sdj64 said:

Most of your numbers appear in the ballpark.  Mostly, you won't go to a certain Jool orbit (I have no idea what orbit your numbers assume) between the moons so those will be lower.  Tylo departure is about 900, Laythe about 650?  Pol and Bop departures depend so much on where you're going.  Bop plane change does not take anywhere near 2440.  Kerbin return can vary widely and often takes more than 950 if you're avoiding the atmosphere.  Lots of these can be reduced further with gravity assists, so your ship can stay well away from atmospheres but still save considerably.

The ship looks cool!  Is it intended to carry a lander?  I don't think it was IRL but you might have other plans.

 

Alright, so your question boils down to: can you send your refueling mission ahead of time?  The answer is, yes.  The original intent of that rule was to rescue a ship that ran out of fuel by accident, not to plan to supply a ship that can't make it without.  Don't worry, though, the hardware reuse idea is cool and if you need a fuel drop, go for it!

No, the problem (or is it?) is there are two fuelers - one at Laythe and one at Tylo.

Edited February 16, 2017 by OrbitalBuzzsaw

[sdj64]

Just now, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

No, the problem is there are two fuelers - one at Laythe and one at Tylo.

Oh, sorry.  There is only one refueling mission.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Just now, sdj64 said:

Oh, sorry.  There is only one refueling mission.

Can I send 1 ship that splits into 2?

[septemberWaves]

2 hours ago, sdj64 said:

The ship looks cool!  Is it intended to carry a lander?  I don't think it was IRL but you might have other plans.

@Angel-125 Since you're balancing the ship to visit Jool and its moons, perhaps it would be a good idea to include a large enough delta-v margin to include some payload (which could perhaps be a Jool 5 lander).

[Angelo Kerman]

2 hours ago, sdj64 said:

The ship looks cool!  Is it intended to carry a lander?  I don't think it was IRL but you might have other plans.

 

6 minutes ago, eloquentJane said:

@Angel-125 Since you're balancing the ship to visit Jool and its moons, perhaps it would be a good idea to include a large enough delta-v margin to include some payload (which could perhaps be a Jool 5 lander).

Thanks! It's getting there, I finished the cryopod model today, and am working on the 3.75m Cryo Shelter now. The NASA design doesn't appear to have a lander, but the Kerbal Discovery II will have a lander. Ideally, the lander can land on Laythe and Tylo with refueling help from the Discovery. I'm guesstimating about 10k delta-v to get there, explore some moons, and have a refueling stop along the way.

[septemberWaves]

1 minute ago, Angel-125 said:

 

Thanks! It's getting there, I finished the cryopod model today, and am working on the 3.75m Cryo Shelter now. The NASA design doesn't appear to have a lander, but the Kerbal Discovery II will have a lander. Ideally, the lander can land on Laythe and Tylo with refueling help from the Discovery. I'm guesstimating about 10k delta-v to get there, explore some moons, and have a refueling stop along the way.

I saw that cryopod in the DSEV thread earlier, it looks pretty great. I'll be interested to see your take on a multi-moon lander; will it be based off of the Gemini-style tech from M.O.L.E, or are you going for something more futuristic?

[Angelo Kerman]

11 minutes ago, eloquentJane said:

I saw that cryopod in the DSEV thread earlier, it looks pretty great. I'll be interested to see your take on a multi-moon lander; will it be based off of the Gemini-style tech from M.O.L.E, or are you going for something more futuristic?

Not really sure. At the moment I'm looking at a stock design that uses DSEV's Viper nuclear aerospike for the reference design. It wouldn't qualify for the Jool-5 mission though, so I might have to look at other options. My goal at this point is to re-tune the Supernova so that the Kerbal Discovery II reference design can reach Jool and back with refueling- and carry a lander for the outbound trip- without being overpowered.

[septemberWaves]

6 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Not really sure. At the moment I'm looking at a stock design that uses DSEV's Viper nuclear aerospike for the reference design. It wouldn't qualify for the Jool-5 mission though, so I might have to look at other options. My goal at this point is to re-tune the Supernova so that the Kerbal Discovery II reference design can reach Jool and back with refueling- and carry a lander for the outbound trip- without being overpowered.

It's never been easy to make a single-stage Tylo lander. Maybe the way to go would be to have an expendable descent module for Tylo, a specialized module for Laythe (with parachutes and some fuel to begin ascent perhaps), and have the base lander design only be an SSTO for Vall/Bop/Pol. I would instinctively tend towards a design similar to the Soviet Moon lander, wherein a single engine is used and the expendable module is jettisoned when no longer needed (though the Soviet lander jettisoned only the landing assembly whilst adapting such a design for Tylo would probably necessitate it being a drop tank as well).

Actually, speaking of which, I just got an idea for a Tylo exploration project based on Soviet-era Russian space exploration technology (though I think that will have to wait because I'm doing several other things at the moment).

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

13 hours ago, eloquentJane said:

It's never been easy to make a single-stage Tylo lander. Maybe the way to go would be to have an expendable descent module for Tylo, a specialized module for Laythe (with parachutes and some fuel to begin ascent perhaps), and have the base lander design only be an SSTO for Vall/Bop/Pol. I would instinctively tend towards a design similar to the Soviet Moon lander, wherein a single engine is used and the expendable module is jettisoned when no longer needed (though the Soviet lander jettisoned only the landing assembly whilst adapting such a design for Tylo would probably necessitate it being a drop tank as well).

Actually, speaking of which, I just got an idea for a Tylo exploration project based on Soviet-era Russian space exploration technology (though I think that will have to wait because I'm doing several other things at the moment).

I'm doing only 1 4km/s rated lander with two LanderPaks(TM) - a fuel/engine pack for Tylo, and a parachute pack for Laythe

EDIT - as it turns out, I'm actually gonna have to make a mini Tylo lander to go in my cargo bay. Landing on Tylo first for my strategy, I think.

Edited February 16, 2017 by OrbitalBuzzsaw

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

@sdj64 Am I allowed to both use an ISRU and have a refueller?

Edited February 16, 2017 by OrbitalBuzzsaw

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Finished building my refueler in orbit. Ready to go in 100 days time

[sdj64]

1 hour ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

@sdj64 Am I allowed to both use an ISRU and have a refueller?

Okay, I looked at that rule again and I decided I want to keep it as it is.  You can't have both.  If your ship carries an ISRU unit but doesn't use it (make sure to document this really well) then you are allowed the refueling mission.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Just now, sdj64 said:

Okay, I looked at that rule again and I decided I want to keep it as it is.  You can't have both.  If your ship carries an ISRU unit but doesn't use it (make sure to document this really well) then you are allowed the refueling mission.

Ok. That's gonna take some work.

[Human Person]

1 minute ago, sdj64 said:

Okay, I looked at that rule again and I decided I want to keep it as it is.  You can't have both.  If your ship carries an ISRU unit but doesn't use it (make sure to document this really well) then you are allowed the refueling mission.

Isn't a Miner a refueller as well? I'm currently working on the challenge. I'm restricting myself to the Launchpad Mark 2. My plan involves a Vall-Miner Which has a refuelling-Ship attached to the top. They land , mine and get back to Vall-Orbit while docked together. There the refuelling-ship detaches from the Miner below to deliver the Fuel anywhere in the Jool System and return to the miner again.

Also, I'm not using any nuclear power.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Soooo... @sdj64 am I allowed a refueler if I only refuel my lander (no ISRU on the lander, just the main ship)

[sdj64]

19 minutes ago, Physics Student said:

Isn't a Miner a refueller as well? I'm currently working on the challenge. I'm restricting myself to the Launchpad Mark 2. My plan involves a Vall-Miner Which has a refuelling-Ship attached to the top. They land , mine and get back to Vall-Orbit while docked together. There the refuelling-ship detaches from the Miner below to deliver the Fuel anywhere in the Jool System and return to the miner again.

Also, I'm not using any nuclear power.

Anything that's docked to your ship when it flies to Jool is part of your ship, so yours is fine.  The rule is about a refueler that flies to Jool separately.

18 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Soooo... @sdj64 am I allowed a refueler if I only refuel my lander (no ISRU on the lander, just the main ship)

Like Physics Student, you could maybe dock fuel tanks or a mining lander to your main ship for the journey?  You can even take fuel tanks, drop them somewhere in the Jool system, then go back to them to refuel.  Or use gravity assists to save some fuel, if you weren't already planning to.  There are lots of possibilities to make your design work.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

14 hours ago, sdj64 said:

Anything that's docked to your ship when it flies to Jool is part of your ship, so yours is fine.  The rule is about a refueler that flies to Jool separately.

Like Physics Student, you could maybe dock fuel tanks or a mining lander to your main ship for the journey?  You can even take fuel tanks, drop them somewhere in the Jool system, then go back to them to refuel.  Or use gravity assists to save some fuel, if you weren't already planning to.  There are lots of possibilities to make your design work.

Looks like I'm going to have to design a new mothership then. Crap.

[Hotaru]

Question @sdj64: Is part welding allowed (and if so, would it count as stock or modded)? In this day and age of autostruts it doesn't really allow you to do anything you couldn't do normally in terms of structural rigidity. 

My main reason for using it would be to keep part count civilized; my practical upper limit is around 250 parts, and while I could definitely do a Jool-5 mission within that limit with no welding, I might be able to do a much cooler mission if I did use it.

[Numerlor]

Hope that screenshots are good enough, I returned full ship to kerbin, it has ISRU and (it says) around 9000 ΔV I stopped for refuel on Mün. It also had different design at first try with engines on top and command modules on bottom but engines overheated for some reason, after that I tried with command modules on top because I forgot gravity exists. It has 5 kerbal crew. Engines are from Solaris Hypernautics.

Also I'm not that good at taking screenshots (and I forgot about some) so If needed I can do it again

http://imgur.com/a/0PUg3 How do I add that fancy album stuff to post?

 

btw is this considered SSTJ, or SSTXs need to be spaceplanes?

Edited March 1, 2017 by Numerlor

[sdj64]

On 2/24/2017 at 6:23 PM, Hotaru said:

Question @sdj64: Is part welding allowed (and if so, would it count as stock or modded)? In this day and age of autostruts it doesn't really allow you to do anything you couldn't do normally in terms of structural rigidity. 

My main reason for using it would be to keep part count civilized; my practical upper limit is around 250 parts, and while I could definitely do a Jool-5 mission within that limit with no welding, I might be able to do a much cooler mission if I did use it.

Yes, it is allowed and it would count as modded.

 

On 2/28/2017 at 10:43 AM, Numerlor said:

Hope that screenshots are good enough, I returned full ship to kerbin, it has ISRU and (it says) around 9000 ΔV I stopped for refuel on Mün. It also had different design at first try with engines on top and command modules on bottom but engines overheated for some reason, after that I tried with command modules on top because I forgot gravity exists. It has 5 kerbal crew. Engines are from Solaris Hypernautics.

Also I'm not that good at taking screenshots (and I forgot about some) so If needed I can do it again

http://imgur.com/a/0PUg3 How do I add that fancy album stuff to post?

 

btw is this considered SSTJ, or SSTXs need to be spaceplanes?

I've never heard of Solaris Hypernautics before but now seeing it, it will have to be banned.  It's significantly more powerful than, say, Atomic Age or Kerbal Atomics, both on the banned list already.  Not to mention the Cannae drives... That's my bad, though, not yours.

However, given the large number of missing screenshots this attempt is not going to qualify.  Next time, include some pictures of reentry on Laythe and Kerbin, and during landing and takeoff everywhere.   Try to keep more of the shots in the light if you can.  Nice illustration of your Pol landing.

I would consider this an SSTA (single stage to anywhere) because of the ISRU.  It doesn't have to be a spaceplane.

Edited March 2, 2017 by sdj64

[Hotaru]

37 minutes ago, sdj64 said:

Yes, it is allowed and it would count as modded.

Cool, thanks for the answer.