Should the USA go metric?

[Bill Phil]

Seconds are pretty arbitrary, but everybody uses them.

Actually, the U.S. teaches both in schools. And many printed items have both. Like on Coke cans.

Personally I don't care. As long as I can measure distance, volume, weight, mass, etc.

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A meter is defined as the distance that light travels in 1/299,792,458 of a second. The "random number" is (299,792,458/c).

But that's light speed in meters as the base of it.

[PakledHostage]

Before we get into another "entertaining discussion" with Darnok about the nature of the speed of light, I'd like to draw people's attention to the immortal words of BlueCosmology, posted during our most recent episode.

[Shpaget]

And how you calculate speed without length unit? And how you can calculate distance without unit?

Time is also inaccurate, so is speed of light, because to measure the duration of 9192631770 periods of the caesium 133 atom you also needed OLD time unit.

So basically we are using meters calculated using old-inaccurate meters and second calculated using old-inaccurate seconds... and we call that science

You take a flashlight in your right hand, turn it on and observe the light propagating from the light bulb. In your left hand you have a lump of cold cesium and once you feel it tick away those 9 and some billion times you make a note of how far the light traveled. Whatever the distance it traveled, you call it one meter. You don't need to know how long was the old definition of meter or second.

[Bill Phil]

No.

Meter is defined as the Length of the path traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second (17th CGPM); while the second is defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.

True. But why 9,192,631,770? That is designed to be equal to a second.

[Fel]

Just remember, you are the only ones in the world using that crazy thing...

If the smurfs would invented a new unit system based on mushrooms, that would have much more sense than the imperial system.

So Africa doesn't exist? And what is with England and STONES (I still read people using that, don't deny it)?

I don't really care about the argument, but the reality of the situation is specialized units DO have their place, and only INSANE people would say a unified system of measurement is "better" because you have 10 fingers.

Now, whether those units are used PROPERLY is a different matter. Using Knots to describe the speed of a car is silly, but a unit that is based on average travel distances with easy relations to time isn't (I tend to be close to 60mph most of the time, now go ahead and say that we need to use kilo-seconds instead of hours -__-)

Now, whether

The United States of America doesn't care what you think.

/thread

Edited June 9, 2015 by Fel

[Loligoat]

Yes, just, yes. Sure it wouldn't be easy, but it needs to be done eventually. We can't just keep putting it off.

[Kerbart]

Metric you say... ok so 1 meter is calculated as 1 second / speed of light in m/s.

So you are calculating 1 meter using meters per second, where did you get "old" value of meter from? And how accurate it can be?

Not to mention how second is calculated and how many errors we get using both in one equation

I am not from USA and not really like miles and inches etc, but meters suck.

What matters is that if you're talking about, say, how much grass you need for a football field measuring 90x45, we're both talking about the same thing, being either meters, yards, or potrzebies. And given that the global standard is the SI system, it would make sense to embrace that.

As for the origin, the meter was defined as 1/10,000,000th of the distance from the north pole to the equator (along the meridian going through Paris, to be precise). This distance was then measured out on a piece of metal which became the definition of one meter. As science improved, methods of defining the meter have been redefined into "easily" reproducable laboratory tests, removing the need to travel to Paris to recalibrate rulers.

As for the second, according to Wikipedia: Since 1967, the second has been defined to be the duration of 9192631770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom. Not 9192631771, not 9192631769, but 9192631770 -- so you can figure out the accuracy from there.

[Kryten]

So Africa doesn't exist?

All African nations except de-facto former US colony Liberia use metric units.

[kurja]

Metric you say... ok so 1 meter is calculated as 1 second / speed of light in m/s.

So you are calculating 1 meter using meters per second, where did you get "old" value of meter from? And how accurate it can be?

Not to mention how second is calculated and how many errors we get using both in one equation

I am not from USA and not really like miles and inches etc, but meters suck.

'Old value' and the original definition of meter was 1 / 10000 of the distance from north pole to the equator. Not very accurate, hence the later re-definition using c.

Converting units to and from volume, pressure, etc is something I do at work on a very regular basis, and for that metric is definitely superior.

P.S. Just for giggles, maybe look up how 'foot' is defined..

[Fel]

All African nations except de-facto former US colony Liberia use metric units.

If I really cared... I know I can find plenty of nations with their UNIQUE, not imperial vs metric, junk.

It isn't that I disagree with NIST and SI, just that arguments like this are utterly elitist in nature.

[PakledHostage]

So Africa doesn't exist? And what is with England and STONES (I still read people using that, don't deny it)?

Here's a map showing metrication of countries by year (Ref: Wikipedia - The Metric system):

Note 1: Black denotes countries that still don't officially use metric.

Note 2: White identifies countries that already used the metric system at the time they gained their independence.

Edited June 9, 2015 by PakledHostage
Added notes about color codes.

[Kryten]

If I really cared...

I'm not the one SCREAMING in ALL-CAPS about it.

I know I can find plenty of nations with their UNIQUE, not imperial vs metric, junk.

You'll find plenty of people still using traditional systems, but in terms of nations the only ones to not use SI units officially are Liberia, the US, and Mynamar.

[JoCRaM]

The computers work in binary representations of metric values. They translate these to and from arabic numerals, and apply a scaling factor. To a computer, dividing by 1000 is as sensible as 1852.

[Megan]

Why should somebody use one unit of mass for pork bellies and another one for liquor?

Because no one drinks a pint of pork bellies. Chesterton's fence applies here:

"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, 'I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away.' To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: 'If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.'"

(Even the fiercest advocates of the metric system never seem to realize they're still living their lives in imperial amounts, just with metric labels. No one ever had the thought, "Hey, 355 is a good amount of milliliters for the average person!")

Imperial units are based on human needs, human experience, and the human body. The metric system isn't an attempt to improve the economy, or increase scientific understanding; it's based on a belief that universal rules and standards imposed from on high can make people better.

And like Mal said, I do not hold to that.

[Shpaget]

True. But why 9,192,631,770? That is designed to be equal to a second.

It's the other way around. One second is however long it takes for 9,192,631,770 cesium thingies to occur.

Why 9,192,631,770? It was calculated from Moon and Sun apparent motion.

More on this here.

[kurja]

The metric system isn't an attempt to improve the economy, or increase scientific understanding; it's based on a belief that universal rules and standards imposed from on high can make people better.

And like Mal said, I do not hold to that.

"Make people better"? ...Citation needed. As far as I can tell the metric system exists to unify and simplify engineering, and it excels at that - making my life easier.

[Woopert]

We must take a stand. We must resist!

Metric for all of humanity!

(coming from an American)

[Robotengineer]

"Make people better"? ...Citation needed. As far as I can tell the metric system exists to unify and simplify engineering, and it excels at that - making my life easier.

If your live is made easier by using the metric system, doesn't that make you a better person?

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We must take a stand. We must resist!

Metric for all of humanity!

(coming from an American)

+1. Same here.

[Kryten]

(Even the fiercest advocates of the metric system never seem to realize they're still living their lives in imperial amounts, just with metric labels. No one ever had the thought, "Hey, 355 is a good amount of milliliters for the average person!")

Leaving aside the fact that there are no inherently metric or imperial amounts to live your life in, There is no canonical set of imperial units. The people you are accusing of still thinking in 'imperial' almost all live in countries where US customary units were never used, and in most areas there was no firm agreement on what any measures actually meant until the 19th century.

[PakledHostage]

No one ever had the thought, "Hey, 355 is a good amount of milliliters for the average person!")

355 ml is 12 fluid ounces. 12 ounce soda and beer cans exported from the states (or canned using American canning equipment) are labeled "355 ml" in metric countries like Canada because the cans are made to an American standard, not because 355 ml is some magical quantity of soda for the average person. The cans could just as well be 300 ml, 400 ml or even (as they are in much of the world) 250 ml.

[Shpaget]

Because no one drinks a pint of pork bellies. Chesterton's fence applies here:

But when I'm drunk I might want to compare the density of my whiskey to the density of my porkchop without plonking the porkchop in my whiskey.

"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, 'I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away.' To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: 'If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.'"

Not seeing a purpose of a fence is certainly not good enough reason to take it down, but seeing a benefit in taking down the fence is certainly a good reason to think about doing it.

(Even the fiercest advocates of the metric system never seem to realize they're still living their lives in imperial amounts, just with metric labels. No one ever had the thought, "Hey, 355 is a good amount of milliliters for the average person!")

Imperial units are based on human needs, human experience, and the human body.

Eh? Are you exactly one "personal height" high? Is your foot exactly one foot long?

The metric system isn't an attempt to improve the economy, or increase scientific understanding; it's based on a belief that universal rules and standards imposed from on high can make people better.

Not people, communication.

[Bill Phil]

It's the other way around. One second is however long it takes for 9,192,631,770 cesium thingies to occur.

Why 9,192,631,770? It was calculated from Moon and Sun apparent motion.

More on this here.

A second is an arbitrary unit of time. It just happens to take that many cesium ticks for a second to go by. We found out how many cesium ticks, and then used that for atomic clocks.

As for the meter:

With c the speed of light in meters, 1/c is 1 meter. But you need the speed of light in meters first.

[magnemoe]

"Make people better"? ...Citation needed. As far as I can tell the metric system exists to unify and simplify engineering, and it excels at that - making my life easier.

Engineering and trade, Things get easier if the barrel the pub buy draft beer in is in the same format as the glass they serve. Say 40 liter and 0.5 liter.

Fun about measurements in Norway planks length in a store is measured in decimeter, this give an number who is easy to work with. Width and thickness in thumbs of historical reasons.

[Megan]

"Make people better"? ...Citation needed. As far as I can tell the metric system exists to unify and simplify engineering, and it excels at that - making my life easier.

If you spend more time building rockets than baking cakes, good for you. Use the metric system if it makes your life easier. I ain't stopping you, and American society will join you when enough Americans are also making more rockets than cakes. What I object to are politicians telling me it'll simultaneously simplify my life and save the planet and don't forget the children! Think of the children! - if I forget every frame of reference I ever learned.

Leaving aside the fact that there are no inherently metric or imperial amounts to live your life in

Sure there are. What do you think "foot" refers to? It's roughly the size of an average human foot. Imperial units are based on need; that's why units differ between liquor and pork bellies, as in the example cited earlier.

The people you are accusing of still thinking in 'imperial' almost all live in countries where US customary units were never used

I didn't accuse anyone of thinking in any particular way. I simply observed that 355 ml is not a natural measurement. 12 oz is. However you label the can, ounces are the basis for the amount that's in it, because that's what makes sense.

[magnemoe]

A second is an arbitrary unit of time. It just happens to take that many cesium ticks for a second to go by. We found out how many cesium ticks, and then used that for atomic clocks.

As for the meter:

With c the speed of light in meters, 1/c is 1 meter. But you need the speed of light in meters first.

A second is 1/(60*60*24) day, During the french revolution they also tried to change the clock to 10.100.100 it failed, my guess clocks was expensive to replace and 10 hours is too little.