[WIP][1.8.x] SSTULabs - Low Part Count Solutions (Orbiters, Landers, Lifters) - Dev Thread [11-18-18]

[Kagame]

So you're making a single-part Centaur then? Thank you! Mind making a DEC variant too?

[Shadowmage]

Just now, Kagame said:

So you're making a single-part Centaur then? Thank you! Mind making a DEC variant too?

No, and no.

I was merely showing the size of the RCS compared to the actual upper-stages.

All the upper-stage parts you are getting from me, you already have -- you can already make a centaur using the Modular Upper Stage parts and the Skeletal engine mount.

[Jimbodiah]

5 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

LoL... in regards to that video, I just have to ask, how?  It looks like those boosters are moving at warp speed once decoupled.

Your decouplers  On light boosters they are impossible to balance. I mentioned this on github, but couldn't resist this example when I built the Delta II this week. Thrust 40%, force 0%, fuel 30.  I've tried it with 10% thrust, 0 force and 20 fuel, but they just ram into the main section then.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Jimbodiah

[Shadowmage]

Strange -- do you have any mods effecting aero / drag / thrust?  As I never had those problems during testing -- all boosters jettisoned out to the sides and -away- from the center stack, and I never saw warp-speed boosters.  Could also be you need to adjust the booster CoM relative to its attach point on the radial decoupler (e.g. adjust the thrust transform positions to make sure that when it activates it turns the right direction).

What is the dry/empty weight of the boosters you are decoupling in that video (just gathering info so I can do some testing).  Will post up some screenshots / info / tutorials regarding what I find/figure out.

[Jimbodiah]

Not that I know of, no FAR or anything, only parts mods (not even EVE or scatterer anymore as they are buggy as FA).

I used the stock boosters and the ones in the video are from Procedural Parts. Each of the boosters weighs in as 10 tons full, 1.6t empty.

I also get the same effect on SSTU boosters though, just not as extreme. The decouplers tend to launch the booster forward too much, instead of too the side.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Jimbodiah

[Shadowmage]

30 minutes ago, Jimbodiah said:

Not that I know of, no FAR or anything, only parts mods (not even EVE or scatterer anymore as they are buggy as FA).

I used the stock boosters and the ones in the video are from Procedural Parts. Each of the boosters weighs in as 10 tons full, 1.6t empty.

I also get the same effect on SSTU boosters though, just not as extreme. The decouplers tend to launch the booster forward too much, instead of too the side.

Will investigate this tonight, along with cleaning up some of the heat-shield code (and parachute code if I can get to it).

 

Hoping to push out an updated pre-release later tonight with the near-complete SM in it (geometry/models done; needs texturing and balance), along with some of these bugfixes / plugin updates.  No promises, we'll see how the evening goes

[Jimbodiah]

Looking forward to that SM sneak-peek

[JoseEduardo]

Shadow, since you have made an Apollo, could I suggest for 0.9.0 lander rework to have a Direct Ascent version of it (for launching on board of Nova) and the martian lander version too? no need to be an exact replica though, just a similar concept 

Edited December 16, 2015 by JoseEduardo

[Shadowmage]

16 hours ago, Jimbodiah said:

Looking forward to that SM sneak-peek

Sadly I spent all night dealing with stock code; trying to figure out a way to disable the black-body-radiation glow on a command pod when the heat shield is active.  More sadly, stock has hard-coded that functionality into the part and I don't think I'll be able to 'fix' it.  I might be able to hack around it, but I don't think I'll be able to actually fix it.  Quite sad.  Nearly makes me want to be done modding (I'm quite sick of fighting stock code that makes horrible hard-coded assumptions regarding part setup).

 

[ComatoseJedi]

12 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Sadly I spent all night dealing with stock code; trying to figure out a way to disable the black-body-radiation glow on a command pod when the heat shield is active.  More sadly, stock has hard-coded that functionality into the part and I don't think I'll be able to 'fix' it.  I might be able to hack around it, but I don't think I'll be able to actually fix it.  Quite sad.  Nearly makes me want to be done modding (I'm quite sick of fighting stock code that makes horrible hard-coded assumptions regarding part setup).

 

All I have to say is don't give up, yet. While you maybe able to work around it, make it easier on yourself and don't incorporate a heat shield into the model. Taper the edges and keep it empty to put a stock or other shield for now (or make your own, up to you). Incorporate it later when you figure out how to make it work, perhaps when 1.1 comes out when it might be a lot easier to deal with. What's another part to this series? While I know you are going for a one-part process, it might be nearly impossible to include every system into one part. You could make a heat shield with various texturing, like you done with the tank to change material styles. Just my opinion on the matter, it's entirely up to you.  

[davidy12]

5 hours ago, JoseEduardo said:

Shadow, since you have made an Apollo, could I suggest for 0.9.0 lander rework to have a Direct Ascent version of it (for launching on board of Nova) and the martian lander version too? no need to be an exact replica though, just a similar concept 






 

Where'd you get the 3d model pic? Eyes turned skyward?

[Jimbodiah]

Lynwood may have a point, it would also make the second apollo capsule redundant, and by making it modular, you could add it to the Orion, Apollo and any other future model.

[RedParadize]

The glow on the capsule don't upset me too much. And I maybe there is a way to go around it without rewriting the code. Ablation could just keep the capsule cooler than its gloing treshold, thats it.

[JoseEduardo]

5 hours ago, davidy12 said:

Where'd you get the 3d model pic? Eyes turned skyward?

found on google as a similar result to one of the two last pictures, was hosted on pinterest btw

7 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

Sadly I spent all night dealing with stock code; trying to figure out a way to disable the black-body-radiation glow on a command pod when the heat shield is active.  More sadly, stock has hard-coded that functionality into the part and I don't think I'll be able to 'fix' it.  I might be able to hack around it, but I don't think I'll be able to actually fix it.  Quite sad.  Nearly makes me want to be done modding (I'm quite sick of fighting stock code that makes horrible hard-coded assumptions regarding part setup).

 

Orion has 3 parts, Apollo has 2... if the integrated heatshield is having problems wouldn't it be better to have as a separate part? would make Apollo 3 parts, but would be an easier way out

[Shadowmage]

The good news:

So... many hours of debugging later, I've found a quite effective and simple hack to solve the command pod glow.  I haven't found a way to fix the stock coloring, but I did locate a way to basically just undo whatever it did; it comes at the performance hit of resetting the material color for a second time that frame.  The actual impact should be negligible though, as the point where it is being set is prior to any draw calls being issued, so it boils down to just changing a couple variables that I'm pretty sure would be re-uploaded to the gfx every frame anyway.  Still makes me sad that I have to work hack around stuff like this, but ohwell... moving on for now.  At least NathanKell and a few others were kind enough to help me with the rest of math behind KSP thermodynamics, so I could get the actual thermal stuff figured out.

 

The uhh... more good news?:

Tweaked the heatshield on the SC-A-CM to perform quite effectively for mun/minmus return velocity, while still leaving a decent margin for higher-speed returns (uses 275 of 450 ablator).  Returns from standard orbital velocity are about as tame as they should be.  All of the heat-shield variables/etc have been exposed in the config for the SC-A-CM, what is shown there are the default values for everything, so feel free to tweak them accordingly.  I already explained a few posts/pages back what they all do.  Have not yet tweaked the SC-B-CM heatshield, that is on next-weeks TODO list while reworking the pod.

And now for the... better news :
(Nope, sorry, no bad news tonight)
I'm going to package up what I have as-is, as the code-side fixes alone are worth it (the SM model is just a bonus ).   Keep in mind the SM is not finished; I actually have even more texture work done, but would need more time to do all the spec-masking, etc... so that stuff will wait for the weekend.  This is mostly a release for the improved heat-shield code and the fix for the editor lag.

https://github.com/shadowmage45/SSTULabs/releases/tag/0.3.24-pre3

 

 

P.S.  First person to post an imgur album of their Apollo - 11+ mission recreation gets a cookie (an internet cookie=\).  Bonus cookie if it is done in RSS

 

 

And as I was a bit stuck earlier on coding (and didn't feel like working on textures), I started working on next-weeks modeling - the rework of the SC-B-CM (Orion), up to the new standards of the SC-A-CM:

Mostly it consisted of straightening out the window cuts (is now planar), fixing the shading around the windows, and working on splitting off the parachute cap.  I probably won't get back to it until next week, but there is some initial progress.  Will have an all-new texture, higher-resolution if I can pull it off (to match the texture scale on the 2.5m pod), and feature all of the built-in-goodies of the other pod.

 

 

 

[Shadowmage]

14 hours ago, JoseEduardo said:

Shadow, since you have made an Apollo, could I suggest for 0.9.0 lander rework to have a Direct Ascent version of it (for launching on board of Nova) and the martian lander version too? no need to be an exact replica though, just a similar concept 

 

 

LoL... my original concept for the 5m lander pod looked almost exactly like those.  Except it was just a giant pod   (would have still needed the rocket underneath it).

Something along those lines might be doable.  More doable than the Apollo LEM anyway (although, if someone wants to donate some geometry for the LEM, I'll gladly unwrap/texture/rig/set it up; but modeling it has escaped me so far).

Still a long ways off from redoing lander stuff though; have 4-5 more part series to get through (stations, bases, satellite, rover).  I'll d/l those pics though so I have them handy, never hurts to have more resource material.

 

[davidy12]

3 hours ago, JoseEduardo said:

found on google as a similar result to one of the two last pictures, was hosted on pinterest btw

Orion has 3 parts, Apollo has 2... if the integrated heatshield is having problems wouldn't it be better to have as a separate part? would make Apollo 3 parts, but would be an easier way out

Can you send me the link? (Pinterest) 

[ComatoseJedi]

30 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

 

LoL... my original concept for the 5m lander pod looked almost exactly like those.  Except it was just a giant pod   (would have still needed the rocket underneath it).

Something along those lines might be doable.  More doable than the Apollo LEM anyway (although, if someone wants to donate some geometry for the LEM, I'll gladly unwrap/texture/rig/set it up; but modeling it has escaped me so far).

Still a long ways off from redoing lander stuff though; have 4-5 more part series to get through (stations, bases, satellite, rover).  I'll d/l those pics though so I have them handy, never hurts to have more resource material.

 

In my honest opinion, I feel that the Apollo LEM module is over used as the basis for landing on other moons. While other part mods kind of lack that unique feel of what landing on the Lunar surface would be like in the near future,what you've done with your lander core package is, by far, the best idea ever constructed. While the ALCOR pod is currently one of the more popular pods, you still have to build a landing system for it and that takes a lot of parts. Next is the Apollo LEM, which has been used numerous times to do these types of missions. 

All the while, I think landing on the Mun is an adventure, after that, the role changes to colonization, in which your cargo ship comes into play. Slap it together, configure it for whatever you want it for, fill it up with your favorite base parts and send it on it's merry way. In other words, you don't need to re do anything with your lander core in my opinion. Spit and polish when 1.1 comes out. Give it more gold foil/brushed aluminum look and blam-o, done and done.

Now with all that being said, there is nothing wrong with another Apollo lander. They are just so hard to replicate, Too many wild angles and lines to be efficient to do in a game type environment. When you could be spending that time with what you already done. Make a smaller version like you had planned in the image of your lander core series and get to making things we really could definitely use: station parts, base building parts, sat package and rovers (love rovers). This is just an opinion of mine, it probably will vary with everyone else's opinion and yours to, Shadow. Just don't work yourself to a burn out state trying to please everyone, because it just isn't going to happen.  

[planeguy868]

Do you have plans to make cut-down AJ10 and service module for the Apollo craft?

As in the service module from Eyes Turned Skyward, like this.

[JoseEduardo]

9 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

 

LoL... my original concept for the 5m lander pod looked almost exactly like those.  Except it was just a giant pod   (would have still needed the rocket underneath it).

Something along those lines might be doable.  More doable than the Apollo LEM anyway (although, if someone wants to donate some geometry for the LEM, I'll gladly unwrap/texture/rig/set it up; but modeling it has escaped me so far).

Still a long ways off from redoing lander stuff though; have 4-5 more part series to get through (stations, bases, satellite, rover).  I'll d/l those pics though so I have them handy, never hurts to have more resource material.

 

Sounds great, I think the martian lander will benefit a lot if it is done after all the base stuff, mainly because the descent stage also was intended to be used as a habitation pod 

 

As for LEM, even though I suggested it I kinda agree with lynwoodm, LEM would feel more like a bonus, but the main reason I asked was because it would use far less parts than the FASA one, and speaking of FASA, Shadow, I think contacting DannyTX, Frizzank or NathanKell (Frizzank handed FASA to him) could help on the LEM regard

EDIT: @davidy12 have fun: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/441493569693987355/

Edited December 17, 2015 by JoseEduardo

[ComatoseJedi]

1 hour ago, JoseEduardo said:

Sounds great, I think the martian lander will benefit a lot if it is done after all the base stuff, mainly because the descent stage also was intended to be used as a habitation pod 

 

As for LEM, even though I suggested it I kinda agree with lynwoodm, LEM would feel more like a bonus, but the main reason I asked was because it would use far less parts than the FASA one, and speaking of FASA, Shadow, I think contacting DannyTX, Frizzank or NathanKell (Frizzank handed FASA to him) could help on the LEM regard

EDIT: @davidy12 have fun: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/441493569693987355/

There are a couple more out there. Lack made one and it's in his SXT mod. He made it in 2 parts, plus the landing legs decoupler and docking port.  

[Jimbodiah]

frizz said you can use his parts as long as you credit him... but I fi d the sstu lander far more practical. Like lynwood said, just polish it up with gold foil instead of orange and add some other fuel options.

Also take note your engine library is becoming huge at this point. The AJ is cute, but I will never use the clusters of these, they are just eating RAM on my end.

It might be an idea to split sstu up into 2-3 seperate mods... This is my main gripe with Fasa and Chaka, they are so huge and cause ksp to crash with tons of parts I will never use.

[ComatoseJedi]

36 minutes ago, Jimbodiah said:

frizz said you can use his parts as long as you credit him... but I fi d the sstu lander far more practical. Like lynwood said, just polish it up with gold foil instead of orange and add some other fuel options.

Also take note your engine library is becoming huge at this point. The AJ is cute, but I will never use the clusters of these, they are just eating RAM on my end.

It might be an idea to split sstu up into 2-3 seperate mods... This is my main gripe with Fasa and Chaka, they are so huge and cause ksp to crash with tons of parts I will never use.

Heh, My Linux laughs at your game crashes on Windows. But, Windows laughs back and tells me where to stick my Line Command Interface. While it's very intimidating to use Linux at first, once you set it up, it runs like witchcraft with KSP. 

[JoseEduardo]

12 minutes ago, lynwoodm said:

Heh, My Linux laughs at your game crashes on Windows. But, Windows laughs back and tells me where to stick my Line Command Interface. While it's very intimidating to use Linux at first, once you set it up, it runs like witchcraft with KSP. 

I used to like Linux (namely Ubuntu) but then I returned to windows because of FSX and many steam games

@Jimbodiah let's hope 1.1 comes soon

[davidy12]

@JoseEduardo: I'll go crazy.