Top Gun AI - The Official Tournament Thread

[BlueCanary]

12 hours ago, Redshift OTF said:

One plane to rule them all...

I shall call it Anduril.

http://www./download/06urq8ax4urxa51/Anduril_Mk1.craft

4x Aim 120 = 16

4x Chaff = 8

2x Flares = 6

1x GAU 8 30mm = 14

2x Ammo box = 8

Total = 52

When you can't stack wings, you just make a bigger plane. It's a great missile platform, good at dodging missiles and an excellent dogfighter, (provided the AI doesn't do anything silly like fly in a straight line for no reason). Plus I always wanted a fighter fitted with a GAU.

I tried flying my El Quicko against this, since it seems to have a similar design philosophy (big maneuverable fighter with low wing loading).

Your plane completely hammered mine in a missile fight - I'm still not really sure why mine is so awful at dodging missiles - but in an all guns dogfight things were much more evenly matched.

So far:

Two clear victories each.

Two three mid-air collisions - two incredibly maneuverable planes spinning around each other metres apart at 30-270m/s is pretty dangerous, it turns out.

One fight where both planes ended up missing a wing.

 

The rate of fire of that GAU-8 seems to be helping the Anduril a lot, whilst my M230 armed fighter needs to be pretty much on the targets six to get a hit. I might swap it out for a Vulcan to see if that changes things.

KSP seems to be only saving screenshots about half the time, so I have no record of this really incredible fight where after a lengthy dogfight the El Quicko got behind the Anduril and shot off part of it's wing. The Anduril kept fighting, but soon got another lump of wing shot to pieces. And it kept flying and fighting, getting hit three more times, until eventually it just disintegrated. It's damage resistance is incredible.

[Redshift OTF]

Wow, thanks for the mission report. I've been enhancing the Anduril against the Asp and the FF 102 to make it as good as possible. It is an incredible dogfighter but these planes seem to be near the limit of what a plane in a gun fight can do. As a missile platform it is lethal as it can got off the ground quick and flip over fast and accurately enough to get off 3 AIM 120's on almost any target which is its main strength. I haven't tested against your El Quicko so I will give it a go and see if it can be enhanced.

I'm still not sure if the GAU is worth it but it seems to have a better range than most guns, certainly better than the 0.50 turrets.

[BlueCanary]

Just now, Redshift OTF said:

Wow, thanks for the mission report. I've been enhancing the Anduril against the Asp and the FF 102 to make it as good as possible. It is an incredible dogfighter but these planes seem to be near the limit of what a plane in a gun fight can do. As a missile platform it is lethal as it can got off the ground quick and flip over fast and accurately enough to get off 3 AIM 120's on almost any target which is its main strength. I haven't tested against your El Quicko so I will give it a go and see if it can be enhanced.

I'm still not sure if the GAU is worth it but it seems to have a better range than most guns, certainly better than the 0.50 turrets.

It definitely seemed to be shooting at me from very far off, although it didn't score any hits from that far so I'm not sure how much of an advantage that is.

The El Quicko is hopeless at avoiding missiles* (although it carries 7 of them and is comparable in maneuverability to the Anduril so it shouldn't be too bad at firing them) so you'll probably find that outside of a gunfight there's nothing you need to change to fight against it better, although without missiles it seems to be about equal to the Anduril, maybe even with a slight advantage if you reduce the fuel load to ~40%.

*The autopilot flies it so it kills all it's speed turning as hard as it can to avoid the first one and then doesn't have the energy to avoid the second, I can't see any reason why the airframe should be so unable to dodge missiles as it is plenty maneuverable and has a reasonable countermeasure load, I think it's just the way the autopilot flies it.

[Redshift OTF]

Have you tried increasing the Steer Dampening setting? I find that reduces the chances of the plane snapping round when pitching allowing you to keep your speed. Also, more wing at the back of the plane can stop the plane snapping as extra air hits the rear of the plane if it turns too much and corrects this.

I guess your plane shows that what is good for a missile plane is not necessarily good for a gunship. If you can get you plane to avoid missiles then it would be deadly. I have noticed the AIM 120's take a few seconds to get up to speed and if you can make a plane that can close the distance to its target the AIM 120's are easier to dodge. It's tricky though.

[Triop]

@ BlueCanary Well, I had to adjust some settings on my Kritter, but it took down the Anduril.

Can you do some simulations to verify ?

Here's my craft: Kritter+

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tb94zb7e6635xi/Kritter%2B.craft?dl=0

EDIT, I don't get it, in the simulations I'm running now my Kritter can not avoid your missiles ???

I uploaded the wrong craft, fixed now, sorry

Edited January 1, 2016 by Triop

[drtricky]

6 hours ago, Redshift OTF said:

I'm still not sure if the GAU is worth it but it seems to have a better range than most guns, certainly better than the 0.50 turrets.

The GAU-8 is definitely worth it on your airplane. As a matter of fact, the BRRRT on your airplane is the primary reason I need to adapt my Taurus: it makes it absolutely deadly in a gunfight, with its excellent low speed maneuverability and the range, muzzle velocity and stopping power of the 30 mm rounds. 

Your Anduril is the reason I've removed some CM's and put a GAU-8 on my Taurus 

However, my plane has a 50% win rate against yours, despite losing almost every gun fight, because my plane has more missiles (8 AIM-120's on my Taurus, compared to 4 on your Anduril), and although your plane is extremely maneuverable, that doesn't mean it can dodge missiles 100% of the time.

If possible, I recommend you remove some countermeasures and add more missiles to your airplane (Note: I didn't count how many CM's your airplane has, so I don't know whether it is actually possible)

Edited January 1, 2016 by drtricky

[GDJ]

Interesting. In my experience I had far more success with the .50 cal turrets set to 0/0/0 than the GAU-8, altho' I admit that I had the .50 cals arranged on the sides of the fuselage. Some of the success could be the spacing between the turrets and having a wider coverage than a single weapon.

Same with a pair of Hidden Vulcans mounted on the sides of the fuselage. Wider coverage.

Edited January 1, 2016 by GDJ

[drtricky]

7 hours ago, BlueCanary said:

.The El Quicko is hopeless at avoiding missiles* (although it carries 7 of them and is comparable in maneuverability to the Anduril so it shouldn't be too bad at firing them) so you'll probably find that outside of a gunfight there's nothing you need to change to fight against it better, although without missiles it seems to be about equal to the Anduril, maybe even with a slight advantage if you reduce the fuel load to ~40%.

*The autopilot flies it so it kills all it's speed turning as hard as it can to avoid the first one and then doesn't have the energy to avoid the second, I can't see any reason why the airframe should be so unable to dodge missiles as it is plenty maneuverable and has a reasonable countermeasure load, I think it's just the way the autopilot flies it.

I don't have a copy of your plane, so I can't be sure about what I say. But the first potential reason your plane isn't handling as well could because there isn't as much wing area relative to its mass. Assuming your plane and the Anduril have similar masses, your plane visibly has less wing area than the Anduril. More wing area = more turn responsiveness and stability; That is the reason people stack or clip the wings on their aircraft.

Your plane would also appear to be losing a lot of energy in turns simply because it has only two engines (especially compared to the Anduril's four). This not only influences the speed it can maintain in a turn, but also how quickly it can accelerate out of them.

Edited January 1, 2016 by drtricky

[Triop]

@ BlueCanary

I give up, the escape window from your Aim-120 is so narrow....

I need a faster plane then the Kritter for this, to bad, it won from all the other fighters.

[Redshift OTF]

1 hour ago, Triop said:

@ BlueCanary Well, I had to adjust some settings on my Kritter, but it took down the Anduril.

Can you do some simulations to verify ?

Here's my craft: Kritter+

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tb94zb7e6635xi/Kritter%2B.craft?dl=0

EDIT, I don't get it, in the simulations I'm running now my Kritter can not avoid your missiles ???

I uploaded the wrong craft, fixed now, sorry

Hmmm, interesting. I will train against it! I like the fact that no-one can build one plane that can beat every other plane. There's always something else that will come along...

[Redshift OTF]

1 hour ago, drtricky said:

The GAU-8 is definitely worth it on your airplane. As a matter of fact, the BRRRT on your airplane is the primary reason I need to adapt my Taurus: it makes it absolutely deadly in a gunfight, with its excellent low speed maneuverability and the range, muzzle velocity and stopping power of the 30 mm rounds. 

Your Anduril is the reason I've removed some CM's and put a GAU-8 on my Taurus 

However, my plane has a 50% win rate against yours, despite losing almost every gun fight, because my plane has more missiles (8 AIM-120's on my Taurus, compared to 4 on your Anduril), and although your plane is extremely maneuverable, that doesn't mean it can dodge missiles 100% of the time.

If possible, I recommend you remove some countermeasures and add more missiles to your airplane (Note: I didn't count how many CM's your airplane has, so I don't know whether it is actually possible)

I will have a look at it although in my tests it seems to blow everything else out the water. Perhaps it is down to the starting position of the planes? I tend to have mine fairly close to each other off the end of the runway and usually my plane can flip over 180 and take the other craft out before it locks missiles.

[BlueCanary]

27 minutes ago, drtricky said:

I don't have a copy of your plane, so I can't be sure about what I say. But the first potential reason your plane isn't handling as well could because there isn't as much wing area relative to its mass. Assuming your plane and the Anduril have similar masses, your plane visibly has less wing area than the Anduril. More wing area = more turn responsiveness and stability; That is the reason people stack or clip the wings on their aircraft.

Your plane would also appear to be losing a lot of energy in turns simply because it has only two engines (especially compared to the Anduril's four). This not only influences the speed it can maintain in a turn, but also how quickly it can accelerate out of them.

That's the thing that confuses me, it has huge wing area compared to it's mass. That was one of the main design considerations. It's also 6 tonnes lighter than the Anduril, but has a lower TWR as it has half the engine - although the climb to altitude times seem quite similar. 

It's incredibly responsive in turns, although the control surface area is so large that it can get twitchy under SAS at high speeds, although the autopilot doesn't appear to have this problem so much. I think the issue is that it is so responsive in turns that when the autopilot breaks as hard as it can to avoid missiles, a lot of energy is lost, simply because it's pulling Gs way off the navball G meter's scale for extended periods of time, allowing it to avoid the first missile with ease but leaving it without the energy to get away from the second. This could be avoided by reducing the pitch authority or moving the CoM further forward to reduce maneuverability, but the problem is that this would ruin the extreme ability to make high G turns at all speeds that makes it so good in a gunfight.

What I don't understand is why the Anduril does not have this problem - it seems to have very similar all-speed maneuverability, but without losing the ability to dodge missiles. 

 

Craft file for the El Quicko is here, if you want to try it. If you do I recommend you try it at least once in an all-guns fight, as it allows you to get a much better sense of it's capabilities than in a missile fight, where it turns into a useless pile of space-grade poop. I also recommend you reduce the fuel load to ~40%, as that seems to be just enough to give it the edge against the Anduril in a gun battle.

Edited January 1, 2016 by BlueCanary

[Redshift OTF]

1 hour ago, GDJ said:

Interesting. In my experience I had far more success with the .50 cal turrets set to 0/0/0 than the GAU-8, altho' I admit that I had the .50 cals arranged on the sides of the fuselage. Some of the success could be the spacing between the turrets and having a wider coverage than a single weapon.

Same with a pair of Hidden Vulcans mounted on the sides of the fuselage. Wider coverage.

I still like the 0.50 cal turrets as well. I think you are correct, you can space them out for a kind of shotgun effect, particularly as each turret has 2 barrels. Still, I think it works better at close range with the GAU better at medium and long range.

[BlueCanary]

1 hour ago, Triop said:

@ BlueCanary Well, I had to adjust some settings on my Kritter, but it took down the Anduril.

Can you do some simulations to verify ?

Here's my craft: Kritter+

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tb94zb7e6635xi/Kritter%2B.craft?dl=0

 

Wait, did you mean to tag Redshift OTF? The Anduril is not my design, although I have flown designs against it.

[Redshift OTF]

Triop, I seem to be beating your Kritter + every time with my Anduril. Maybe we are simulating differently? I tend to setup my battles like this:

[drtricky]

23 minutes ago, Redshift OTF said:

Perhaps it is down to the starting position of the planes? I tend to have mine fairly close to each other off the end of the runway and usually my plane can flip over 180 and take the other craft out before it locks missiles.

When I do my tests, I set one plane off the side at the start of the runway, and then have the other take off right from where it is placed, so yeah, starting positions are fairly similar. 

The thing is, my AI has a tendency to ignore the AIM-120's your Anduril fires at my Taurus in the beginning, and try and fire off a few missiles at the Anduril. So your plane is not quite intimidating to my Taurus . 

Edited January 1, 2016 by drtricky

[drtricky]

10 minutes ago, BlueCanary said:

Craft file for the El Quicko is here, if you want to try it. 

Just tried it; your plane is even more maneuverable than the Anduril, but it can't maintain speed in turns because it only has two engines. Also, its climb rate is nowhere near the Anduril's (My Taurus, which I used to test your El Quicko, has a slightly slower climb rate than the Anduril, so I used that as a reference for climb rate). So plain and simply, add more engine.

 

[Redshift OTF]

@Blue Canary: I found a similar thing happening to my earlier designs. If the plane snaps 90 degrees to the airflow then it is like hitting a wall. You can use less wing but then the plane will be pointing backwards. I usually move some of my wing backwards to the rear of the plane to stop the plane snapping a full 90 degrees and then the plane and engines have time to catch up with the turn if you know what I mean. True, that affects the turn rate a bit but you can find a sweet spot and then add more control surfaces afterwards to improve it, and then more wing to manage it.

[BlueCanary]

@Triop

I'm trying the Kritter+ against the El Quicko, so far things look to be leaning towards my fighter.

I was reusing the El Quicko as set up for previous tests, so it had no missiles equipped, but the Kritter kept it's AIM-120s. 

The El Quicko, with a slightly better TWR, was able to get in the air quite a bit faster, and was able to dodge both AIM-120s quite easily (it can dodge the first shots well, it's just that it loses the energy it needs to deal with follow up shots, which the Kritter can't deliver), quickly making it an all guns battle.

The first fight ended with a mid-air collision resulting in the total destruction of both aircraft, but in the second the more maneuverable El Quicko was able to quickly get on the Kritter's tail and take out it's wings with 30mm cannon fire.

It's worth noting, however, that had the Kritter had a couple more missiles it wouls have won the fight within the first 15 seconds. Also, the impressive volume of fire it's 4 cannons put in the air completely outgunned my fighters single M230. If it had managed to score a hit on it's first past while my fighter dodged the AIM-120s, it would again have been able to end the fight very quickly.

 

More testing coming soon.

[Triop]

I am making a mess here today....

I thought Anduril was Blue's design....

I uploaded Kritter to soon...It won the first 2 times, but somehow now it can't get passed the Aim-120's

Forget about the Kritter beating Anduril...Man, that plane is awesome !

I am working on something bigger now, getting close, took me ages to get passed the Aim-120's, but now I get bullits up my *

@ BlueCanary who said: "I like the fact that no-one can build one plane that can beat every other plane. There's always something else that will come along... "

Yeah, making a jet that can fight and win from every fighter seems impossible.

 

You came in like a wrecking ball !

Edited January 1, 2016 by Triop

[BlueCanary]

@Triop

I've done some more flights against the Kritter, and it looks like the El Quicko has a pretty comprehensive advantage over it.

Although the firepower of the Kritter makes it far more effective than any other fighter I've seen in long range gun runs, once the fight becomes a turning battle (which it almost certainly will, considering the Kritter only carries 2 missiles) the more maneuverable fighter was able to literally run circles around it, getting on it's tail very quickly and denying it the opportunity to use those four vulcans. The low rate of fire of my fighters M230 cannon meant that the Kritter was often able to evade, but it simply lacked the maneuverability to be able to get back on the offensive.

However, when it did get a chance to use those cannon, the effect was devastating for everything in their path. If you can get anything near that level of firepower in the fighter you're working on now, it sounds like it'll be very hard to beat.

 

[Triop]

1 hour ago, BlueCanary said:

@Triop

I've done some more flights against the Kritter, and it looks like the El Quicko has a pretty comprehensive advantage over it.

Although the firepower of the Kritter makes it far more effective than any other fighter I've seen in long range gun runs, once the fight becomes a turning battle (which it almost certainly will, considering the Kritter only carries 2 missiles) the more maneuverable fighter was able to literally run circles around it, getting on it's tail very quickly and denying it the opportunity to use those four vulcans. The low rate of fire of my fighters M230 cannon meant that the Kritter was often able to evade, but it simply lacked the maneuverability to be able to get back on the offensive.

However, when it did get a chance to use those cannon, the effect was devastating for everything in their path. If you can get anything near that level of firepower in the fighter you're working on now, it sounds like it'll be very hard to beat.

 

Thanks for that info, maybe I can tune the Kritter some more.

I will get back to it, so much to do, so little time

 

EDIT: Setting the Steerfactor to 20 and the steerdamping to 6 helped me

I also changed takeoff speed to 60.

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Triop

[BlueCanary]

@Triop

Inspired by the Kritter, I replaced the El Quicko's M230 with dual Vulcans. Best. Decision. Ever. It's like watching a Star Wars dogfight. Fighters flicking around each other impossibly fast, cannon fire zipping past, then suddenly one of them suddenly stops mid-flight and explodes just like when Luke shoots down the TIE fighter. It's so incredibly fast KSP guns battles can be.

If anyone wants it here's the craft file for the en-vulcaned version (for best results reduce fuel to around 20-40% before flight). At the risk of sounding really cocky and looking like a complete idiot when somebody's plane completely blows it out of the water, I think it might be the best non-wingstack gunfighter currently on offer, with extreme maneuverability, good acceleration, and now formiddable firepower.

(It may or may not have a giant decoy/missile thing mounted on top, if it does just decouple it, it's useless.)

Of course it still can't dodge missiles at all, but still...

Edited January 2, 2016 by BlueCanary

[drtricky]

1 hour ago, BlueCanary said:

If anyone wants it here's the craft file for the en-vulcaned version

I downloaded that; that's the unmodified version with the M230

[BlueCanary]

10 hours ago, drtricky said:

I downloaded that; that's the unmodified version with the M230

That's wierd, I was sure I picked the right one. It should be fixed now.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/70gbrt062c2agjv/El%20Quicko%20%28-X%20Variant%29.craft?dl=0