All That Unused Science

[Jett_Quasar]

I've got a career game where I'm about half way through - I've explored Kerbin, Duna, Eve and I'm starting on Jool. I have gained enough science that I've completed the entire tech tree, and I have still been able to collect several thousand more science points that have no purpose in the game any more. What I would love to see added to the gameplay is the ability to spend those science points improving the performance of existing parts - say decreasing the mass of an engine or increasing it's thrust or ISP. That would be a great addition to the game IMHO.

Any thoughts on this?

JR

[problemecium]

Not bad ideas, but for now you can simply use the Administration building to adopt a 100% Science-to-Funds conversion strategy, as I did last time I cleared the tree. Then you don't have to worry about useless Science piling up any more, and rather than go to waste it just turns into more money.

[theend3r]

This idea is not really new and is already incorporated in KSPI where you have to pay science to increase the performance of some parts.

You could also use science to upgrade/buy uprgaded kerbals so they don't have to get experience and when the MP comes, science could be traded.

Also, when you get some sci-fi mods like KSPI, you'll need a lot of science to max the tree. If Squad ever makes any expansions (we can dream, right?) it'll probably be like that too.

[TimePeriod]

If you have that much science, you should probably have increased the difficulty.

There is not one clear answer to what should be the end-game content in this game. Maybe some kind of contact with aliens?

[samstarman5]

The Admin Building does provide an option for that, and it is actually much akin to Civilization's own tech tree when you reach the top. Any progress there is either converted to currency or counted towards endgame points. It really doesn't matter how much more is added to the tech tree to use science, there will always be science left over when you reach the top. Just gotta remember that the endgame is not the top of the tech tree. I mean, really, are you just not going to use the parts provided there just because you hit the top? It is what you do with everything that you earned access to is what opens up so much more. Use the admin building to turn the rest of the science into funds and go crazy. You won't have to be so cautious with crazy designs, now. Find new ways to rescue kerbals.

[Jett_Quasar]

Not bad ideas, but for now you can simply use the Administration building to adopt a 100% Science-to-Funds conversion strategy, as I did last time I cleared the tree. Then you don't have to worry about useless Science piling up any more, and rather than go to waste it just turns into more money.

Yeah I would do that but I already have lots of money as well (~30 Million Kerbucks). And all the engines have been nerfed in 1.0 so I'm just trying to find a way to make things more interesting - even if it was a combination of science and money or even reputation for the upgrades I think it would be a great game-play dynamic to add to a new version.

JR

[Norcalplanner]

Community tech tree gives you a reason to keep earning science, especially if you've added some mods which use the late nodes. Not sure how well it would work to add it to an existing save, though. SETI also makes things interesting with lots of changes to how science is gathered.

[mikegarrison]

Even with CTT, you can pretty easily fill out the tree just in near-Kerbin space if you try hard. Especially if you park a lab on the Minmus surface and/or send it on a little trip into solar orbit.

Science points could be considered victory points, but most of us (I think) just convert them to money. Labs can turn into money factories if you want.

[Nookos]

This would be really good. I like it a lot. It's like adding a lot of future technologies, extending career's life and keeping science gathering alive.

I hope someone makes it happen.

[AbacusWizard]

The way I see it, once you've completed the tech tree, further science is your score.

[Nori]

I think there is way to much science to be had on Kerbin. All of the KSC "biomes" are pretty ridiculous given how much science you can get for a bit of work. Despite having played the game since 0.16 I did not know that there was 2 biomes for most of the KSC buildings.

I play on 50% science with contracts at 25%. Also have Kerbal Construction Time to work as a science sink if needed. I feel like it is at a pretty good spot now.

[mikegarrison]

I think there is way to much science to be had on Kerbin.

The problem is there is too little science to be had in low Kerbin orbit. You need to bootstrap your science enough to get to the moons, and you run out of science really quickly just launching rockets into orbit. So the KSC science is there mainly to give an option to do that bootstrapping.

Basically, I think there needs to be a mini-lab that you can get early on. Something you can launch into space and generate enough science to get you your basic space technologies. Think of it as something like Gemini's Agena.

[Nori]

The problem is there is too little science to be had in low Kerbin orbit. You need to bootstrap your science enough to get to the moons, and you run out of science really quickly just launching rockets into orbit. So the KSC science is there mainly to give an option to do that bootstrapping.

Basically, I think there needs to be a mini-lab that you can get early on. Something you can launch into space and generate enough science to get you your basic space technologies. Think of it as something like Gemini's Agena.

Can't fault your logic. Some logical way to get science in Kerbin's orbit would make sense. I mean it is supposed to be a game about rockets and space..

[Jett_Quasar]

The original reason I started this thread wasn't because I thought the science is unbalanced, I think it's actually good the way it is. What I was really looking for were ways that science points could be used to continue to make the game more interesting. For example, I like to use all different kinds of rocket engines in my advanced designs to make then cool and unique, but some engines are just not as good as others so my design choices are limited. If I could use science and money to go back and upgrade some of those engines to reduce the weight or increase the thrust or efficiency then those engines would be useful again - the same could be done for other parts as well. If this could be done as a mod I'd be perfectly happy with that.

JR

[More Boosters]

Yeah I would do that but I already have lots of money as well (~30 Million Kerbucks). And all the engines have been nerfed in 1.0 so I'm just trying to find a way to make things more interesting - even if it was a combination of science and money or even reputation for the upgrades I think it would be a great game-play dynamic to add to a new version.

JR

You're clearly lifting too light for what you can do.

[Plume & Akakak]

The way I see it, once you've completed the tech tree, further science is your score.

I was about to give the same answer. No extra ball here, just the joyful, ageless pleasure of high-scoring.

[Jett_Quasar]

My plan was to start a new career save when V1.1 comes out and bump up the difficulty level.

JR

[Halo_003]

I think it would be cool to get some more advanced contracts once you have the tech tree maxed out. Ie. build an "ISS" replica in LKO using these modules. Just an example.

[AbacusWizard]

The problem isn't that there's too much science; the problem is that the tech tree is too small.

[John FX]

I like the idea of using science to improve the performance of parts. It makes sense to me.

Currently I use my extra science to decrease production times as I use Kerbal Construction Time but it would be very cool to be able to increase the ISP of my favourite engine by spending 2000 science on it.

[Nori]

The problem isn't that there's too much science; the problem is that the tech tree is too small.

Yeah this. You unlock a lot of parts in every node and can unlock the entire tree with just Kerbin, Mun, Minmus. And that isn't counting science from contracts. I'm fine with all the science, but a bigger tree would be really cool. Maybe new nodes with really good parts, like the Lightbulb from Atomic Age.

[Nich]

Meh upgrade engines can quickly become OP then you never use the mid game engines so then those need an upgrade but then the endgame engines suck to those need an upgrade. I personally think how it is set up is fine

[Plume & Akakak]

As I said previously, I'm all good with science points accumulation for plain high-scoring pleasure.

In most games where you receive points serving as a medium of exchange, you sooner or later end up carrying much more of that currency than needed. Traditionally it's a purse containing trillions of gold coins, and nothing left to buy at the shop.

It's nice that in KSP, in addition to the kerbits/kredits, you can accumulate a form of wealth representing knowledge. I find it more appealing than running for cash.

For our achieving needs, and to keep us going, there is also the gratification of filling the "science archives" table.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Plume & Akakak

[mikegarrison]

As said previously, I'm all good with science points accumulation for plain high-scoring pleasure.

In most games where you receive points serving as a medium of exchange, you sooner or later end up carrying much more of that currency than needed. Traditionally it's a purse containing trillions of gold coins, and nothing left to buy at the shop.

It's nice that in KSP, in addition to the kerbits/kredits, you have the opportunity to accumulate a form of wealth representing knowledge. I find it more appealing than running for cash.

For our achieving needs, and to keep us going, there is also the gratification of filling the "science archives" table.

Late in a game of Skyrim, when I have so much gold I can't figure out how to get rid of it, I still reflexively grab that daedric armor and try to figure out how to carry it to where I can cash it in. I can't stop myself from doing it, because that is the main reward mechanism of the game.

Science fills that same role for the career version of KSP. I have to send ships to places, because what else is there to do in KSP? And when I do send them there, if there is science to be grabbed I have to grab it. Because that's what you do. It just goes against every conditioned response to fly a ship to a new biome and then ignore the science I could grab from it. But like that meaningless Skyrim gold, why am I really doing this?

Career mode does let you turn science into money, but it's not like I'm short of money, either. My bank account is something like 23 million roots right now. And even though my late game ships may cost 2 million roots each, with contracts and science and reusing those expensive ships the bank account still grows.

The answer I often found in Skyrim was to start a new game, with a new character, and try to play it a different way. (All magic! All archery! No armor! Etc.) With KSP my answer is usually to start over but with different mods.

[Sharpy]

Can't fault your logic. Some logical way to get science in Kerbin's orbit would make sense. I mean it is supposed to be a game about rockets and space..

I believe the alternative could be changing the science requirements curve: make bottom nodes cost less, top nodes cost more. So that you can easily get all the tech required for Mun and Minmus just by orbit and flybys, plus some suborbital jumps to other biomes, but milking Mun and Minmus for science wouldn't fill out the tree - it would merely make you able to jump to Duna and send unkerbed missions to Eve.

Instead of some 1.6 multiplier per tree level, make it a 2x multiplier, but start lower. 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 240, 480, 960, 1920 instead of 5, 15, 20, 45, 90, 160, 300, 550, 1000.