Does anyone else feel dirty when using Mobile Research Labs?

[Kerbart]

In general I think the science system requires some rework

I disagree. The science system needs a lot of rework.

Science should have Fields and Discoveries. Fields are things like Materials, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Astronomy, etc. Discoveries are milestones in a certain field, perhaps unlocked after gaining x points and succesfully completing a related experiment (maybe said experiment is only offered after reaching the required points treshold in that field).

A Discovery will then automatically unlock a part of the science tree. Certain technology might be unlocked by various Discoveries, or might required multiple Discoveries.

Example:

• The first missions in career mode give you points in the field of "Applied Physics"
  
• After completing a contract to reach an altitude of 2000m your discovery is "Atmospheric Conditions." This unlocks basic scientific equipment like the thermometer and the barometer.
  
• Two special contracts become available, "measure temperature" and "measure pressure" at 1000m (±200m), 2000m (±300m) and 5000m(±500m); you don't need to complete it in one mission
  
• Once the special contracts have been fullfilled, "Basic Aerodynamics" is discovered. You now have access to some nose cones and tail fins.
  

Certain advanced technology becomes available after testing it. The Nerv has to be tested in Minmus orbit, landing gear by performing a landing on lunar surface, etc.

The "Storyline" should be constructed in such a way that gives you freedom similar to what we have currently. And perhaps some technology can be randomized to a certain degree -- just like in reality you wouldn't know what technology a certain discovery would bring!

[legoclone09]

Yes! I totally agree with you Kerbart! Here, have. rep cookie for your awesomeness, and maybe even PM a SQUAD member about that, usually a PM will get a response (I think).

[Kerbart]

Yes! I totally agree with you Kerbart! Here, have. rep cookie for your awesomeness, and maybe even PM a SQUAD member about that, usually a PM will get a response (I think).

Thank you! I will probably work it out a bit more and post a thread for feedback about it first. I'll send you an invite when that happens

[viktor19]

I don't use it, period.

[DocMoriarty]

I like the science lab as is. It's not thaaat easy to set one up with enough data and at least 3-star kerbal scientists. When I reach that point I already have a lot of research done. And this gives the lab some purpose. It's still too easy to get science overall. It should be like 20% less or maybe 30% so that player is forced to leave Kerbin and go at least to Duna and/or Eve to finish the research tree.

[Clipperride]

On one hand I like the Labs as they give stations more of a reason to be there and they can be handy when you're a few points short of unlocking some new tech. On the other hand, playing my first game of KSP in Science Mode, I have only one 1000 point node and two 550 nodes left to unlock and all before I left the Kerbin/Mum/Minmus system.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

Wait the lab has a different function than from 0.9?

[GoSlash27]

Honestly... I've found the science lab isn't worth the aggravation.

Too little science for too much time.

When I'm jump-starting a career I can unlock everything a lot quicker by just returning the science to Kerbin. After that... cash is pretty easy.

Best,

-Slashy

[Joonatan1998]

Wait the lab has a different function than from 0.9?

It used to be: Almost useless boost to science transmission + ability to clean goo and materials bay.

Now: scientists clean the experiments and the lab turns data into science. (Very grindy, boring, but the easiest source of science in the game)

[I_Killed_Jeb]

It used to be: Almost useless boost to science transmission + ability to clean goo and materials bay.

Now: scientists clean the experiments and the lab turns data into science. (Very grindy, boring, but the easiest source of science in the game)

mind.blown. didn't harvester specifically say he didn't want science to be a timewarp thing?

[Superfluous J]

mind.blown. didn't harvester specifically say he didn't want science to be a timewarp thing?

Yup.

(I needed one more character)

[Xavven]

I disagree. The science system needs a lot of rework.

Science should have Fields and Discoveries. Fields are things like Materials, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Astronomy, etc. Discoveries are milestones in a certain field, perhaps unlocked after gaining x points and succesfully completing a related experiment (maybe said experiment is only offered after reaching the required points treshold in that field).

A Discovery will then automatically unlock a part of the science tree. Certain technology might be unlocked by various Discoveries, or might required multiple Discoveries.

Example:

• The first missions in career mode give you points in the field of "Applied Physics"
  
• After completing a contract to reach an altitude of 2000m your discovery is "Atmospheric Conditions." This unlocks basic scientific equipment like the thermometer and the barometer.
  
• Two special contracts become available, "measure temperature" and "measure pressure" at 1000m (±200m), 2000m (±300m) and 5000m(±500m); you don't need to complete it in one mission
  
• Once the special contracts have been fullfilled, "Basic Aerodynamics" is discovered. You now have access to some nose cones and tail fins.
  

Certain advanced technology becomes available after testing it. The Nerv has to be tested in Minmus orbit, landing gear by performing a landing on lunar surface, etc.

The "Storyline" should be constructed in such a way that gives you freedom similar to what we have currently. And perhaps some technology can be randomized to a certain degree -- just like in reality you wouldn't know what technology a certain discovery would bring!

^^ THIS! The biggest area for improvement in KSP IMO is career mode. We've got all these great game mechanics, and good levels (planets), but the campaign and "story" needs work. You know, I was thinking about suggesting a different tech tree on the Suggestions forum but it's one of the "banned" topics. I even started sketching one out, but your idea, Kerbart, is way better than what I was devising. Please do post this in the suggestions forum.

Back to the OP, the problem is that you can farm infinite science with impunity the moment you unlock the science lab. Given enough tolerance for grinding, you could ship a science lab with a minimal amount of solar panels on it to Minmus and spam EVA data over and over. You don't even have to land. Just EVA in low space over each biome, take a crew report, store all the data, timewarp a year, transmit data, and repeat over and over. It totally breaks the game and career is no longer a challenge -- you're just playing sandbox with some awful grinding on the side.

My favorite suggestions from previous threads discussing this very topic were A) adding in an annual budget for your space program, and/or life support.

A) A budget should include a fixed income in the form of government funding on a monthly or annual basis. The higher your rep level, the higher your funding. Rep should constantly decrease over time, and it should decrease more at higher rep levels, so you have to constantly impress the population or they'll wonder why their tax money is going into your boondoggles. Astronauts should take a monthly or annual salary as long as they're deployed anywhere, and losing a Kerbal should incur a 10,000 funds penalty (payment to their families) and hurt your rep. An active mobile science lab should incur a large ongoing cost as well, but only as long as it is researching data.

Life support requires resupply from Kerbin, or ISRU can supplement/supplant it.

Either or both of these would balance the science lab so that the only limiting factor isn't "how bored will the player get if s/he is a min-maxxer?", because the only thing you accomplish by relying on that is a bored min-maxxer. (Edit: in other words, don't tell a min-maxxer to do something else that isn't boring, because they are going to min-max, and if it makes the game boring, they will simply not enjoy your game.)

Now of course, not everyone here is a min-maxxer and I appreciate that we all have different playstyles. You might see someone accuse others of being unimaginative, or basically blame a min-maxxer for not knowing the "right way to have fun in KSP" which is to, more or less, define your own goals and objectives and have fun achieving them. Those players generally don't understand the other playstyle, that being "I want the developer to define an interesting challenge that I can attack with limited time, resources, and parts, and barely overcome it by the skin of my teeth" type of dopamine junkie. Career mode just falls super short for that group of players, of which I'm proud to say I'm a part of.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Xavven

[Megadeath]

I've got pretty mixed feeling for it myself. I've used it, and I think it expands your options for missions and role play both. It does feel kind of unbalanced though. Sounds like life support helps maybe.

[cantab]

I like the science lab as is. It's not thaaat easy to set one up with enough data and at least 3-star kerbal scientists./QUOTE]That's a fair point. My perception has been coloured by playing science, not career, where Kerbal levelling isn't an issue.

[FelixLyons]

I have found that restraint goes a long ways towards making the laboratories feel like a well-fitted part of the game.

My personal preferences include not building truly mobile laboratories in any vessel short of an interplanetary transfer vehicle. As for those transfer vehicles I won't warp them all the way to their destination effectively collecting data and warping. I set a Kerbal Alarm Clock reminder and go about doing other missions for my space program until that friendly reminder pops. Yes, you can cheese out science even with a stationary surface base (especially on Minmus where a small RCS powered puddle-jumper can net you data from every biome.) I travel between biomes using rovers and I think we're all quite familiar with how difficult a proposition that can become.

Orbital stations do add some difficulty through their very nature. Rendezvous, docking, et cetera. Further complications arise when you add a life support mod to the mix (I have come to love TAC Life Support) and have to budget for resupply vehicles to keep those stations operating. I'm also the type that tries to design a vehicle for a specific mission profile. If I'm landing on the Mun I'll design and budget my fuel/propellant/life support for that mission profile and a small buffer for when things go wrong. When doing that an error in calculation or a small mishap can result in an abort of mission or a complete failure. My Munar missions are designed with enough supplies for getting there and back with a short stop at an orbital station. I have managed partial failures of late necessitating that I forgo my orbital station visit if I want to have the necessary propellant to return to Kerbin. I could launch a rescue mission, but that requires the cost of another mission without any of the benefits. Do I really want to run one mission for the price of two when I can achieve a partial success just by getting that vessel home?

If you're the type that likes to hop around Minmus with an RCS puddle-jumper collecting massive quantities of science and data to fill your laboratories for the years spent warping to come -- FANTASTIC. So long as you're enjoying the game we should all be happy for you. If you don't like that style of play ... think about ways to play the game that make it a better experience for you.

[Kerano]

I much prefer the current Lab system to the one we used to have. Automatic science generation while warping is much less fiddly and overall more fun than a tiny % bonus to each individual science transmission. Also it allows more freedom in spaceship design when the Lab doesn't have to be carted along to every landing to maximize science.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Kerano

[Bill Phil]

I have to be honest here...

The first time I successfully used one in Career I felt so ecstatic... Finally, less grinding for science! I could squeeze out almost 1000 science, if not more, per biome on Minmus. Definitely going to use it at Duna and Jool.

I am going to increase the amount of money, science, and rep I get in my next career game. I just don't want to grind as much, but I also want some progression.

[PB666]

The title.

I mean, sure, not time warping works too, but even then the current iteration feels rather overpowered and bland with how you need to do the same science thing over and over again and check periodically; it's also a massive clickfest.

I'm not sure how I would fix it but right now it's not something I want to use. (So I don't use it, don't waste a post telling me to do that)

How do you feel?

Not at all, I worked hard to power and man those labs, i exoect to get some science out of it.

[Renegrade]

I much prefer the current Lab system to the one we used to have. Automatic science generation while warping is much less fiddly and overall more fun than a tiny % bonus to each individual science transmission. Also it allows more freedom in spaceship design when the Lab doesn't have to be carted along to every landing to maximize science.

I made heavy use of the lab before 1.x - you don't have to bring it down with the landing craft. It's perfectly workable to leave it in orbit and rendezvous with it later.

Of course I rarely used the %-transmit-boost stuff, I just used it to reset the one-shot experiments and took the results home at the end of a biome sweep. I try to avoid transmitting things that aren't 100% transmittable unless there's duplicates or such (ex, having two goo pods for balance results in a duplicate result that I'd transmit).

Now in 1.x, I don't do biome sweeps anymore at all, as the science lab pretty much finishes the whole science tree for you. My last big save had a Duna lab that must have yielded something like 30,000 science (well, whatever tiers 6-9 cost + 6500 or so science) and it had only gone through a handful of the science bits that I'd recovered from the Duna subsystem.

Also I'd like to say that the science lab sci/day bit doesn't seem to be sensitive to the Kerbin/Earth locale settings. Tsk, tsk.

[Mister Spock]

I like the lab, and I enjoy keeping it staffed and running missions to it, using life support and space-station contract mods.

On science, I'd enjoy it more if there were some intellectual challenge involved. Perhaps a puzzle to solve when you're trying to unlock science. Or interesting decisions to make about how to process the science gained, or some such. Wish I had more concrete suggestions to offer, though. I know that hurdles like that can just become annoying and grindy too.

[thedanieldude]

Yes. I maxed out my tech tree almost all the way just by making a Duna station.

[monstah]

I feel clean. I put effort into getting that thing there, I don't timewarp just to get the science (I could, but then I'd be spoiling my own fun on purpose and then complaining about it, I guess?), and 500 data is a lot less than what I get in a mission, so there's still science there that I could have returned but is waiting to be processed.

- - - Updated - - -

On science, I'd enjoy it more if there were some intellectual challenge involved. Perhaps a puzzle to solve when you're trying to unlock science. Or interesting decisions to make about how to process the science gained, or some such.

Oh, this sounds interesting. For example, you could choose among experiments, using data as a spendable resource (as in, reacting, burning, or otherwise using samples in a lossy process), and they'd have different data costs, time costs, prerequisites (e.g. scientist levels and experiments performed), science returns and maybe some risk or uncertainty factor.

[Caelib]

They are extremely helpful in hard-mode careers because science gains are very difficult if you're just relying on biomes.

[eddiew]

I play on 20% science, so no - it's just evening the odds while giving me a good reason to have a station in LKO

And I have a bunch of mods that extend the tech tree, meaning I need more total points to complete it. I also do not timewarp for science processing since I'm one of those 20-missions-at-once people and there is always another thing that needs launching!

[xtoro]

I think they should produce another resource called "results" which you need physically bring back to KSC. Landing far from KSC would incur penalties in the same way recovered parts do for funds.

They could also maybe throw in a minigame where you need to solve a puzzle now and then to keep the lab going. Like as if the scientists on board are stumped with the science and you need to help them out.