3D mouse and KSP WOW !!!!!!

[kaan]

Has anyone had any luck getting this sorted out on a mac?

[Snark]

I may be the only one here who hasn't been turning handsprings over 3D mouse in KSP.  Nothing against it; just find that I don't have much use for it.  Which surprised me, because before I had one, I was super jazzed about the prospect.

I got a 3D mouse (the Connexion SpaceNavigator), went into KSP all excited, spent about 15 minutes going ooh ahh in amazement... and then just kinda shoved it to one side and have barely touched it since.  It's not any great dramatic epiphany, nothing against it per se... I simply find that I get along just fine in the game without it, it doesn't do anything that I really need on a day-to-day basis.  Sure, it's cool that the camera can swoop around ... but I never find myself wanting to swoop it around; the stock mouse-based camera controls are plenty for me.

About the only time I ever end up using the 3D mouse in-game is when I want to position the camera "just so" to set up an illustrative screen shot for one of my mods... and now I don't even need it for that, with 1.2's new "Aim Camera Here" (which is, incidentally, another feature I find I have no use for, ever, except for that one case of setting up a screenshot for a mod.)

The one thing that I do find the 3D mouse absolutely indispensable for is when modeling stuff in Blender.  I'm a total fumblethumbs in Blender, even with the 3D mouse... but without it, I'd be far worse; would probably push me over the edge from "clumsy" to "frustrated ragequit".

[monstah]

1 hour ago, Snark said:

I got a 3D mouse (the Connexion SpaceNavigator), went into KSP all excited, spent about 15 minutes going ooh ahh in amazement... and then just kinda shoved it to one side and have barely touched it since.

My 5-DOF HOTAS flying stick  I bought it exclusively to play KSP, and now there's a millimeter-thick layer of dust over it.

1 hour ago, Snark said:

1.2's new "Aim Camera Here" (which is, incidentally, another feature I find I have no use for, ever, except for that one case of setting up a screenshot for a mod.)

Oh, but it makes a great stock docking cam! Really, aim the camera at the docking port, set camera to "fixed", zoom in all the way and point the camera forward. BAM!, awesome docking experience  

Edited October 21, 2016 by monstah

[Snark]

10 minutes ago, monstah said:

Oh, but it makes a great stock docking cam! Really, aim the camera at the docking port, set camera to "fixed", zoom in all the way and point the camera forward. BAM!, awesome docking experience

Except that I don't use the camera for docking.  At all.  I use Navball Docking Alignment Indicator.

I have so little use for "Aim Camera Here", and get so constantly irritated at all the extra and (to me) useless clutter in the part action windows these days, that I'm seriously considering writing a mod to allow removing them in some configurable fashion.  I use "Aim Camera Here" so rarely that I would rather just have the button deleted from all menus, thus reducing clutter.  Ditto auto-strutting and rigid joint options.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Snark said:

I have so little use for "Aim Camera Here", and get so constantly irritated at all the extra and (to me) useless clutter in the part action windows these days, that I'm seriously considering writing a mod to allow removing them in some configurable fashion.

Off topic, I'd download that.

Slightly on-topic, I might have to drag out my old N52 and see how it works for KSP. I don't think I'll be buying a 3D mouse though, too few uses for it.

[wossname]

I've been using my 3DConnexion SpaceNavigator for a long time (18 months+) now in KSP.

I use it frequently and would rank it's usefulness in the following situations (awesomest first)...

1. Docking or IVA maneouvers.  The six analog axes make this an utter joy because smooth, gradual accelerations and turns are very natural to perform.
2. Smoooooooth gravity turns in a BIG rocket.  Simply not possible with the WASDEQ keys.
3. Camera motion within the VAB or SPH.  Trivially easy to get any camera angle on any part, even angles that are not possible without a 3D mouse (somersaults!).  Makes building faster and less frustrating.
4. Moving the camera view around while in flight.  Makes it easy to "fly" your camera around your space stations.
5. Steering rovers on the ground.  It literally acts as a steering wheel, gas and brakes, nuff said.

However, Squad do not understand that the 3D mouse and the regular mouse both affect camera position independently.  This bug is super annoying, but it is the only downside in my opinion.  Sadly I'm too lazy and indifferent to report it.

Edited October 21, 2016 by wossname
Angels??

[Red Iron Crown]

2 hours ago, Snark said:

<Underwhelming experience with 3d mouse and KSP>

I found it took a lot of getting used to, I had to consciously force myself to use it constantly and develop the muscle memory before it started to feel natural. Now that I'm accustomed to it there is no going back.

[Tyko]

1 hour ago, wossname said:

I've been using my 3DConnexion SpaceNavigator for a long time (18 months+) now in KSP.

I use it frequently and would rank it's usefulness in the following situations (awesomest first)...

1. Docking or IVA maneouvers.  The six analog axes make this an utter joy because smooth, gradual accelerations and turns are very natural to perform.
2. Smoooooooth gravity turns in a BIG rocket.  Simply not possible with the WASDEQ keys.
3. Camera motion within the VAB or SPH.  Trivially easy to get any camera angle on any part, even angles that are not possible without a 3D mouse (somersaults!).  Makes building faster and less frustrating.
4. Moving the camera view around while in flight.  Makes it easy to "fly" your camera around your space stations.
5. Steering rovers on the ground.  It literally acts as a steering wheel, gas and brakes, nuff said.

However, Squad do not understand that the 3D mouse and the regular mouse both affect camera position independently.  This bug is super annoying, but it is the only downside in my opinion.  Sadly I'm too lazy and indifferent to report it.

Hey Woss, I tried one with 1.1.2 and found it to be pretty glitchy. I've read here that certain drivers are more compatible than others. Can you share the setup/drivers you're using?

[wossname]

Quote

Can you share the setup/drivers you're using?

Happy to

Throw away the driver CD that comes with the 3D Mouse, it's probably totally out of date (mine was).  Go to their website and grab the specific driver that corresponds to the exact windows version you are using and make sure it's the latest possible one.  I've used my 3D mouse on at least 3 PCs now using this strategy and it does work.

Looking at my own Windows Device Manager driver settings it appears only as a generic HID mouse type device.  Meh.

The manufacturer's own driver user interface (a system tray icon that gives you the app-specific tuning options), the "About..." box shows:

3DxWare 10 Version: 10.2.3
3DxWinCore version: 17.2.3.11261
Devices: SpaceNavigator (firmware v. 4.35)

Just get the latest version off the website and you're golden.

My current setup works with other apps such as Sketchup, Solidworks and Google Earth, all without any issues.

13 minutes ago, tjt said:

I tried one with 1.1.2 and found it to be pretty glitchy

Yep, but happily I think they have made some nice balancing improvements in KSP now, the glitches are noticably less problematic in 1.2.0.  

[monstah]

2 hours ago, wossname said:

I use it frequently and would rank it's usefulness in the following situations (awesomest first)...

1. Docking or IVA maneouvers.  The six analog axes make this an utter joy because smooth, gradual accelerations and turns are very natural to perform.
2. Smoooooooth gravity turns in a BIG rocket.  Simply not possible with the WASDEQ keys.
3. Camera motion within the VAB or SPH.  Trivially easy to get any camera angle on any part, even angles that are not possible without a 3D mouse (somersaults!).  Makes building faster and less frustrating.
4. Moving the camera view around while in flight.  Makes it easy to "fly" your camera around your space stations.
5. Steering rovers on the ground.  It literally acts as a steering wheel, gas and brakes, nuff said.

I can relate to that, but #s 2 and 5 need only a regular joystick (even a simple 2-axis one w/ throttle), and camera work is not my favourite part of playing KSP, so #s 3 and 4 don't sell me the product, either. Docking could be the game changer, but my joystick already has enough DOF for that and it's sitting gathering dust...

(I love your signature, BTW)

2 hours ago, Snark said:

Except that I don't use the camera for docking.  At all.  I use Navball Docking Alignment Indicator.

..which is a great mod, I've used it a lot and I endorse it. But like I said, 'aim here' is a stock docking cam... and, actually, I like the view better. You see the ship approaching, and it's awesome. Really, you should try it (in case you haven't already, I mean. I'm not telling you how you should play your game, but I suggest you at least try a few times and maybe be amazed as I am  ).

2 hours ago, Snark said:

all the extra and (to me) useless clutter in the part action windows these days, that I'm seriously considering writing a mod to allow removing them in some configurable fashion.

I'd most definitely download that! Not just removing them, but organizing in collapsible tabs would be nice, too.

2 hours ago, Snark said:

Ditto auto-strutting and rigid joint options.

BURN THEM IN HELL  

[wossname]

@monstah, I have never used a joystick in KSP personally, so I didn't mean to suggest that the 3D mouse was superior.  In fact for flying a rocket in ballistic flight the 3D mouse is rather difficult.  A joystick is literally designed for flying something.  However I think KSP has enough of a CAD component, and enough docking to make a 3D mouse a useful addition to a serious KSP player's control panel.  Now I think about it I'm sorely tempted to just buy a cheap joystick to see how it helps me fly a plane or a rocket within an atmosphere.  Can you suggest a good brand or model of stick?  I have been out of the joystick game for about 18 years (my last one was a Saitek with a 15-pin DSub connector back in the days before USB was a thing!).

 

[tg626]

So I'm reading this and thinking "what the Jeb is a 3d mouse?" Any demo videos on a 3d mouse in any usage?  

[wossname]

@tg626The urge to post a LMGTFY link is almost overwhelming.

Edited October 21, 2016 by wossname

[monstah]

10 minutes ago, wossname said:

Now I think about it I'm sorely tempted to just buy a cheap joystick to see how it helps me fly a plane or a rocket within an atmosphere.  Can you suggest a good brand or model of stick?  I have been out of the joystick game for about 18 years (my last one was a Saitek with a 15-pin DSub connector back in the days before USB was a thing!)

I got myself this one, used. I think I got what i paid for: it wasn't expensive, and it isn't the best, but it's definitely not a bad one either. The head is a little loose (but then, it was used, although it's in good condition apart from that), you can rotate the stick for roll control, the throttle and stick can be separated into two parts (but with a connecting cord around 50cm, which I pass behind my laptop), and the throttle has buttons on it.

My only complain about it is the hat switch: it's an 8-position rather than analogue, and if you're using any joystick remapping you can't get the hat to work on KSP.

Oh, I forgot, there's another analogue behind the throttle you can use for left-right translation with your index and middle fingers (or for rover steering, since driving around on a stick is weird, but you'll probably need a mod to configure rover controls differently from rockets), kinda like the triggers on a PS3 controller.

Alright, just remembered another thing I don't like a lot about it: the throttle has a 'lock' right in the middle. You know, like mouse scroll wheels have those 'ticks'? So, there's a single one there. Probably because, even tho we think of the throttle as a neutral - positive number, joystick axes usually go negative - neutral - positive, so the tick is where neutral would be.

But really, I think it's a good enough joystick, specially if you want a cheaper one (there are cheaper ones, but those look like they are bad).

Edited October 21, 2016 by monstah

[Fwiffo]

Picked up a 3Dconnexion mouse for modeling activities, and like you guys I was happily surprised to see it also works in KSP.  Only problem is it's WAY too fast and twitchy.  Even with the driver sensitivity setting on lowest.

Has anyone had any luck slowing it down to a more reasonable speed?

I tried the settings here but they didn't help.  e.g. VAB_CAMERA_ORBIT_SENS only seems to apply to rotation using the right mouse drag (not to motions of the 3D mouse cap, and not to keyboard left/right/up/down "radial" camera movements).

Would also love to know if there's a way to make the cap rotate the camera radially around my craft (like the keyboard arrows do) instead of yawing the camera.

EDIT - Sorted it out in settings.cfg:

SPACENAV_CAMERA_SENS_ROT = 6 // was 30
SPACENAV_CAMERA_SENS_LIN = 4 // was 20
SPACENAV_CAMERA_SHARPNESS_LIN = 8
SPACENAV_CAMERA_SHARPNESS_ROT = 10

Not sure what "sharpness" means (some kind of resolution akin to mouse dpi?).

This thing is really helpful for precisely zooming right up to the offset gizmo to make super fine 0.001m adjustments.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Fwiffo

[Red Iron Crown]

Sharpness is how much it smooths camera motion. The smoothing makes it less precise but also less jarring by slowing the transitions between translating/rotating to stopped. It is somewhat akin to mouse acceleration on a conventional mouse.