1.1, will i need to re-do all my craft yet again?

[fireblade274]

1.05 broke basically all my med and large sized craft, mainly my space planes and rockets that become a spaceplane on re-entry ;.;. When 1.1 comes out, please Squad, don't make me rage and have to do it all again. I'm slowly getting used to the update, but please. Please don't change the laws of virtual physics again. And if you are going to (don't), let us know so we can bring everyone home first.

[Majorjim!]

Maybe. Maybe not. I hope not, as the game is released. Breaking stuff we make after the game is released is not acceptable.

[Red Iron Crown]

[quote name='fireblade274']And if you are going to (don't), let us know so we can bring everyone home first.[/QUOTE]
The best play with this is to keep your old install backed up before updating. Try moving your save to the new install, if things break you can do your recovery in the old install before migrating the save again.

I don't think there's been any official word about save/craft compatibility (by this I mean I'm sure saves and craft files will move over fine, but craft might not work the same depending on what changes are made).

[Motokid600]

I hope so. I hope Squad goes through like a wrecking ball for 1.1.

[Majorjim!]

[quote name='Motokid600']I hope so. I hope Squad goes through like a wrecking ball for 1.1.[/QUOTE]

You hope all your stuff will be broken? Odd.. I hope the game is fixed and my precious creations are not effected by the update.

[pincushionman]

The question is "will SQUAD apply any behavior tweaks?" If there are no new parts and they leave the balance alone (which I'm hoping for, personally), there's a [i]chance[/i] everything will still work ok.

But I doubt it. If they're already reworking a lot of code to get it working in the new engine, it's the perfect opportunity to fix some longstanding logic issues. Plus there will be new bugs that appear in the port.

And I'd be shocked if they don't apply some balance tweaks while they're at it.

[tater]

I throw away old game folders with new patches, anyway. I'm at a loss why anyone would care if craft are broken.

[Red Iron Crown]

[quote name='tater']I throw away old game folders with new patches, anyway. I'm at a loss why anyone would care if craft are broken.[/QUOTE]
I generally reuse craft if they still work, why reinvent the wheel? New saves with every update, though.

[Motokid600]

[quote name='Majorjim']You hope all your stuff will be broken? Odd.. I hope the game is fixed and my precious creations are not effected by the update.[/QUOTE]

Yup. Don't care. I don't want Squad to have to take the man hours to make 1.1 compatible with save games people refuse to let go of. Just don't update if you want to keep your current play through its that easy. If your on Steam once 1.1 goes into experimentals you have to relocate your game directory. Its easy.

Especially with this particular update changing to a new version of Unity. There's no way you guys should expect Squad to conserve compatibility on this one. In fact I find it downright selfish to even expect such a thing. And for what? Just so you can keep your silly SSTOs? Thats a complete waste of there time.

Out with the old and in with the new please.

Don't update, stay on 1.0.5 if your so worried about it. Edited November 18, 2015 by Motokid600

[tater]

[quote name='Red Iron Crown']I generally reuse craft if they still work, why reinvent the wheel? New saves with every update, though.[/QUOTE]

Making stuff is half the fun, I just remake it. Of course I make rockets/spacecraft, so it's not like they are hard to remake.

[Gaarst]

Am I the only one here that doesn't get his crafts broken at every single update ? Or that doesn't blame Squad if that happens ?

I mean, even though I don't use planes that much, my shuttle designs are still flying in 1.0.5.
Last time there was a big issue with an update was with 1.0 and loss of thrust with atmosphere; but no big deal: remove these Rhinos on the first stage, strap a few SRBs for additional thrust at launch and there you go.
Same for heating: my main interplanetary craft (2 Kerbals to everywhere) is powered by a nuke. Doing 3500m/s ejection burns at Moho never caused any problem, even before nuke heat nerfing and radiators.
Had a shuttle that couldn't reenter anymore in 1.0.4 due to heat: it did nothing but explode. Well, I dropped that shuttle and used rockets for putting things to orbit while I designed a new one suited for reentry.

Most of the time, some very quick tweaks are more than enough to make my crafts adapted to a new release. Worst case scenario, I design a new one from scratch, but I don't get mad at the game for changing a few things: I adapt.

My first real interplanetary rocket was made for Beta: it could land a Kerbal on every body of the Kerbal system (except Eve, Laythe and Tylo) and return him. I made countless improvements to this rocket, kept working on it for weeks, and so it was my first actual rocket that I ever [I]loved[/I] in KSP. Then 1.0 came out and it was not able to take off anymore, and the core stage exploded half the times after I corrected that first issue.
I was a little disappointed at the beginning, but I built a new one from nothing and it still works perfectly. Even removed 500t on the pad compared to the old one! That old one will remain in my memory, and I take it out for a flight every so often whenever I feel nostalgic (still explodes though), same for other even older crafts that do not work anymore.
Sure Saturn V was cool, but things have changed since the space race so it is not flown anymore, but it will remain as a great rocket.

I don't know: is it just that I have a unique way of designing rockets that make them immune to the effects of time ? Or maybe because I don't use every version's particularities to push the game to its limits for magic optimisation ?

EDIT: and Squad, feel free to break whatever you want for 1.1 as long as the update is good!

[Murph]

[B]Squad, please break everything with 1.1, if you need to. Don't compromise making the game better, or being able to fully embrace the new features provided by Unity 5.[/B]

Yes, I fully expect 1.1 to break stuff for a lot of people, and that's just fine. I want 1.1 to break stuff widely for most people, as long as every breakage is due to an improved or refined feature (or an unfortunate side effect of Unity 5's behaviour just making it unreasonable to maintain some old behaviour). It is trivial to keep a 1.0.5 install around, so everyone is quite able to continue with current saves for as long as they want to, so there is no serious problem when (not if) 1.1 breaks stuff.

That said, chances are that you'll be able to import saved craft from 1.0.x, and just modify them to work with 1.1. New versions breaking stuff DOES NOT mean that your old craft are all trash and you have to completely start over. It just means that you need to get over it and move forward by adapting them to the new version.

To everyone who throws a tantrum at new versions breaking stuff: If Squad listened to you, development on the game would stop years before the potential was properly fulfilled. In some cases, your demands are extremely selfish and foolish. Squad have actually been very good at maintaining compatibility across the versions, and none of the tantrums have ever been appropriate or justified.

[Porkjet]

I'm sorry that this happens from time to time, but there's not really a way around it. For one, balancing is an ongoing effort, and with each new part or gameplay feature added to the game some part stats will have to be reconsidered. Also, sometimes a part revamp may affect craft performance in some way, even if its mostly visual. For instance, the new Thud model will float slightly offset on older crafts, that is because its slimmer than previously, and if offset to account for that, the model origin would be outside of the mesh which would cause all sorts of other problems. So sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and sacrifice a bit of backwards compatibility to improve the game.
What can pretty much be guaranteed at least tho, is that old crafts will allways load up and work, they may just have COM/COL shifting issues or other relatively minor problems.

[Capt Snuggler]

Scroo backwards compatibility! How can anyone justify wanting to hold back potential improvements to balance, aesthetics or game play [B]that we all benefit from[/B] just to preserve old craft. move over dummies, the progress train is coming through.

:sticktongue::sticktongue::sticktongue::sticktongue::sticktongue: Edited November 18, 2015 by Capt Snuggler

[Majorjim!]

[quote name='Motokid600']Yup. Don't care. I don't want Squad to have to take the man hours to make 1.1 compatible with save games people refuse to let go of. Just don't update if you want to keep your current play through its that easy. If your on Steam once 1.1 goes into experimentals you have to relocate your game directory. Its easy.

Especially with this particular update changing to a new version of Unity. There's no way you guys should expect Squad to conserve compatibility on this one. In fact I find it downright selfish to even expect such a thing. And for what? Just so you can keep your silly SSTOs? Thats a complete waste of there time.

Out with the old and in with the new please.

Don't update, stay on 1.0.5 if your so worried about it.[/QUOTE]

Not worried. I just said I hope my craft won't be broken. Relax, everything is ok.

[r4pt0r]

1.0 is out xD


released games dont break saves guys.

[Kuansenhama]

Usually, by the time that a new update comes out, I've 'beaten' career. Been to every planet. Finished the Tree. A new update with slightly different physics and more parts lets me restart that.

I don't think modders are very happy when they update the physics or change the balance of the parts, though.

[Pthigrivi]

I have to say I really like the needle they've threaded with 1.0.5. Everything finally seems to be working as intended. Reentry takes careful planning, heatshields have a real purpose, equipment generates heat and needs radiators; despite some of the growing pains people are feeling everything is working really well at the moment. I'm sure things will tweak a bit as things progress, but I do hope Squad sticks to its guns a bit on the new heat and aero changes. Its tough, but from a gameplay standpoint all the right trade-offs are there. Edited November 19, 2015 by Pthigrivi

[fireblade274]

[quote name='Porkjet']I'm sorry that this happens from time to time, but there's not really a way around it. For one, balancing is an ongoing effort, and with each new part or gameplay feature added to the game some part stats will have to be reconsidered.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for this response, it helps puts things into perspective, although I still wish we would finally reach a stage where the physics is considered "balanced" enough. There will always be things in this game that some people think is unbalanced; now that we are past 1.0.0, I wish we could reach a point where things are fine and dandy, and could leave any further [I]physics[/I] balances to the work of mods.

[quote name='Murph']It is trivial to keep a 1.0.5 install around...everyone who throws a tantrum at new versions breaking stuff: If Squad listened to you, development on the game would stop years before the potential was properly fulfilled. In some cases, your demands are extremely selfish and foolish. Squad have actually been very good at maintaining compatibility across the versions, and none of the tantrums have ever been appropriate or justified.[/QUOTE]
Also Murph, when you say break everything in 1.1; not everyone wants to start a new career/anew in 1.1.

Respectfully, I don't believe I or anyone else [I]so far[/I] on this thread have thrown a "temper tantrum" like a little child at this issue. I quite simply wanted to voice my concern. If simply mentioning this subject of 1.1 possibly breaking craft is "extremely selfish and foolish", keep in mind its just an opinion and I did not say in anyway "this needs to not be done because I'm high and mighty". If anything, I'd say [I]you[/I] are throwing a tantrum simply because I mentioned something you don't happen to agree with.

Additionally, unless I misunderstand your phrase, if it is so "[COLOR=#333333]trivial to keep a 1.0.5 install around", that implies that you think 1.05 is a worthless update and we should have just used 1.04 till 1.1. That too is an opinion and you have a right to it. But don't tell me im throwing a tantrum because you don't like my opinion.
[/COLOR][quote name='Capt Snuggler']Scroo backwards compatibility! How can anyone justify wanting to hold back potential improvements to balance, aesthetics or game play [B]that we all benefit from[/B] just to preserve old craft. move over dummies, the progress train is coming through.[/QUOTE][COLOR=#333333]
Since when in any game[I] that is past 1.0[/I] (and not completely broken, which KSP is not) is backwards compatibility needed to be scrood over? Not to compare apples to oranges, but lets say Roller Coaster Tycoon is your favorite game, and you spent over 100 hours alone just designing 4 special roller coasters. Then roller coaster updates (its no longer beta), and those coasters are done fo. Yes you can have the mentality of "I can just build a better one now!" and you should! But Your going to be a little agitated, especially if your now having much difficulty replicating those coasters. Now lets say its going to be updated yet again relatively shortly; you are stuck in a dilemma of not really wanting to do anything till then so you don't have to repeat the process, yet you don't want to be left behind. It is a complicated subject non the less. NOne of this implies Squad is doing a bad job; on the contrary, I love their vision for this game and are choosing to run with it a good way past 1.0. I'm simply bringing up my experience, preferences, and thoughts on bringing relative stability to the games physics as we progress past the games 1.0 release and moving forward.

There was a famous quote our French fellow Gaarst should know of and some of you have probably forgotten and should take to heart who are calling me "very selfish":

"[/COLOR][COLOR=#444444][FONT=Open Sans][I]I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
[/I][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333]And btw Gaarst, [/COLOR]solidarity my friend.
Let us be cordial with one another, all of us. Edited November 18, 2015 by fireblade274

[mattinoz]

[quote name='Capt Snuggler']Scroo backwards compatibility! How can anyone justify wanting to hold back potential improvements to balance, aesthetics or game play [B]that we all benefit from[/B] just to preserve old craft. move over dummies, the progress train is coming through.

:sticktongue::sticktongue::sticktongue::sticktongue::sticktongue:[/QUOTE]

I'd agree with you while the software was early-access but it's not anymore.
Maybe 1.1 should be re-branded 0.97 (or 2.a.1) if it's going to break saves.

[Motokid600]

The only one throwing anything near a temper tantrum is me. Thats because im just tired of reading the same shtick every update. "OH no dont break my crafts, Oh no will my save be compatible?" Its just...
...

Anyway. Yes the game is in a "released status". But why should that mean Squad has to conserve your gamesaves every time? Im confused. How are they supposed to innovate and try new things if they have to keep the old stuff working with it? It just doesn't make sense to me in a progressive standpoint. And even so... why is this a problem? Whats keeping people from just not updating? Finish up what your doing on your current version before you update to the new one why is that so hard? If not then maybe its a bad idea to launch a grand tour mission the day 1.1 goes into experimentals.

Also make sure you guys understand this is Kerbal Space Program. A game not like any other. So dont compare KSPs/Squads update process to other companies and their games. Thats just silly. Other devs have a much larger budget and staff.

*insert crappy analogy*

And besides its not like Squad just springs these updates on us. Infact its quite the opposite. You have months and months to get your stuff in order for an update. We get detailed notes every week on the progress of each update and what, if anything itll be break. No one is in the dark here. Plan accordingly. Edited November 19, 2015 by Motokid600

[r4pt0r]

[quote name='Motokid600']The only one throwing anything near a temper tantrum is me. Thats because im just tired of reading the same shtick every update. "OH no dont break my crafts, Oh no will my save be compatible?" Its just...
...

Anyway. Yes the game is in a "released status". But why should that mean Squad has to conserve your gamesaves every time? Im confused. How are they supposed to innovate and try new things if they have to keep the old stuff working with it? It just doesn't make sense to me in a progressive standpoint. And even so... why is this a problem? Whats keeping people from just not updating? Finish up what your doing on your current version before you update to the new one why is that so hard? If not then maybe its a bad idea to launch a grand tour mission the day 1.1 goes into experimentals.

Also make sure you guys understand this is Kerbal Space Program. A game not like any other. So dont compare KSPs/Squads update process to other companies and their games. Thats just silly. Other devs have a much larger budget and staff.

*insert crappy analogy*

And besides its not like Squad just springs these updates on us. Infact its quite the opposite. You have months and months to get your stuff in order for an update. We get detailed notes every week on the progress of each update and what, if anything itll be break. No one is in the dark here. Plan accordingly.[/QUOTE]


Being released they should not break saves. that's just how it is. If you buy a new shooter and after a few days of playing campaign an update forces you to restart, you would rightfully be upset.

Perhaps they should not have rushed 1.0


And putting the onus on the consumer(not all of whom browse ksp sites for update info) to back up their saves and relocate their KSP folder, is some form of logical fallacy I am sure.

[COLOR="silver"][SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE][/COLOR]

And let me add, that "Squad is different" argument is junk. Its about respecting the consumer.

[Motokid600]

[quote name='r4pt0r'] respecting the consumer.[/QUOTE]

By improving the product.

[KrazyKrl]

My 2 cents:


Balance fixing and part model tweaks? Needing to redo a few crafts? [B]Okay.[/B]


Physically unable to load a save from post-1.0? Forcing a new Career game? [B][I]NOT OKAY.[/I][/B]

[Pthigrivi]

[quote name='KrazyKrl']Physically unable to load a save from post-1.0? Forcing a new Career game? [B][I]NOT OKAY.[/I][/B][/QUOTE]

[quote name='Porkjet']
What can pretty much be guaranteed at least tho, is that old crafts will allways load up and work, they may just have COM/COL shifting issues or other relatively minor problems.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry, you should be fine. Edited November 19, 2015 by Pthigrivi