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Forgotten Space Program

Cydonian Monk

By Cydonian Monk
in KSP1 Mission Reports

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greenTurtle1134

greenTurtle1134

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14 hours ago, Cydonian Monk said:

== End Kerbal Space Program version 1.1.3. ==

And with that, Kerbin dies again.

Those simple words, a few files of software, and billions of souls are wiped out.

I wonder what would have happened if they were still on Laythe during the End, and how they're going to explain away the fact that all their comms tech has changed. That would be fun...

At the risk of going off-topic I will note that this really reminds me of Sam Hughes (qntm)'s science fiction e-novella Fine Structure, particularly the parts in "1970-" and "Endworld". In that story, the future Earth is subject to periodic "Crashes", generated by a piece of extradimensional technology in Antarctica, that erase all knowledge on the surface. The people themselves survive, but the laws of the universe are momentarily edited to delete all coherent information from the universe. The Solar System is also the only thing in the universe, confined in a closed space four light-hours across. This is the result of an earlier edit to the laws of the universe. The Crashes mean that anyone actually living on the Earth is liable to find random pieces of advanced space age technology and evidence of long past history scattered across the world. It also causes all manner of new governments, cultures, professions, and religions to pop up as civilization resets over and over again.

I'm sure you can see why this eerily reminds me of your Kerbin, @Cydonian Monk. I already refer to the Ends as "Crashes" in my own mind.

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Cydonian Monk

Cydonian Monk

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8 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

At the risk of going off-topic I will note that this really reminds me of Sam Hughes (qntm)'s science fiction e-novella Fine Structure

Veeeeeery similar concept, but there's an added layer that we'll get to eventually. :D Certainly not an original idea I'm using, but it lends itself well to a video game environment.

 

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Geschosskopf

Geschosskopf

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2 hours ago, Cydonian Monk said:

Veeeeeery similar concept, but there's an added layer that we'll get to eventually. :D Certainly not an original idea I'm using, but it lends itself well to a video game environment.

Well;, IMHO the idea of astronauts becoming totally divorced from the homeworld's culture is not only relatively ancient in the SF,genre but goes WAY back beyond that, to very beginnings of the Age of Sail in the Late Bronze Age, when it was sailors who lost touch with home, formed their own culture, and years later  brought home bits of alien cultures which got amalgamated back home.    This was the inevitable consequence of the time needed to go any distance.  Sailors as a separate, distinct, and alien culture different from whatever lands originally bore them but shared around the world amongst themselves, remained part of consciousness back home until the Jet Age pretty much eliminated the need for transoceanic landlubbers to ever have to deal with sailors.  But the sailor culture is still the sailor culture.  Technology has impacted it, but the divorcement with land ashore is still there.

 

31 minutes ago, Cydonian Monk said:

At least this time it's definitely NOT Jeb's fault. 

About time :)  Besides, he's ;long dead.  Just ask Thomlock.

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Cydonian Monk

Cydonian Monk

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The good news?

The flag bug is fixed in 1.2.x! I'm not sure exactly what fixed it, but if you have any flags that fell over in 1.1.x and you still have the save from 1.0.5 or before, just copy the old flag over its new version. Near as I can tell both persistence entries for the flags are the same, but they just don't stand upright if they were loaded in 1.1.x.

The bad news? Well....

Spoiler

... I think autostruts are to blame. You should see the video of this....

20161127_ksp0111_kelgee.jpg

... that'll get worked into the story.

 

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Cydonian Monk

Cydonian Monk

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2 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Weight Mass Wait... do you also read Hughes?

No, can't say that I do. Maybe someday. Someday. Someday.

Unfortunately there's a huge backlog in my "I need to read this" list. Thankfully I cleared out Red/Green/Blue/Purple Mars recently, so I might finally be making room for more stuff. (Considering going back to finish ChapterHouse Dune after I'm done with my current read, if only so I can say I've read the six Dune books.)

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Garrett Kerman

Garrett Kerman

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Come visit Kraken Station, and experience the wild shaking and tremendous flexing firsthand! Be awed as the very thing that keeps you breathing threatens to break in two! Be shocked as you gape at the impossible angles! Be amazed at your pilot's ability to dock with the warping station! Once your death defying very safe trip is over, come buy some gifts to remember your trip by!

NEW! 50% OFF! I survived the Kraken (mostly) shirts are on sale now! Get yours today!

(Forgotten Space Program takes no liability for injuries, deaths, or kraken posessions obtained within or in the vincity of the station.)

(If you are expecting, weak of heart, recovering a recent operation, a mortal being, or have any sanity, you should should not attempt this trip.)

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KAL 9000

KAL 9000

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15 hours ago, Garrett Kerman said:

Come visit Kraken Station, and experience the wild shaking and tremendous flexing firsthand! Be awed as the very thing that keeps you breathing threatens to break in two! Be shocked as you gape at the impossible angles! Be amazed at your pilot's ability to dock with the warping station! Once your death defying very safe trip is over, come buy some gifts to remember your trip by!

NEW! 50% OFF! I survived the Kraken (mostly) shirts are on sale now! Get yours today!

(Forgotten Space Program takes no liability for injuries, deaths, or kraken posessions obtained within or in the vincity of the station.)

(If you are expecting, weak of heart, recovering a recent operation, a mortal being, or have any sanity, you should should not attempt this trip.)

That reminds me of a passenger plane and airline system I once made in KSP... 

"After the aircraft has come to a complete stop, please wait for the emergency services and hearse vehicles to pull up next to us before leaving your seats. Please watch out for our carbon monoxide and cyanide vapor exhaust of this aircraft. Complimentary Geiger counters will be provided to all surviving passengers, due to the experimental nuclear-powered aircraft crash at this airport of a few months ago. Due to the same incident, please be careful of the mutant two-headed RatSquirrelFishes prowling the premises on you way out. Thank you for flying Air Kerbal. 

Air Kerbal is not responsible for any death, maiming, radiation poisoning, regular poisoning, suffocation, drowning, or any other harmful things may have happened on this flight. You signed the waivers, right?"

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KAL 9000

KAL 9000

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21 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Can anyone think of a combustion reaction that produces such products?

HCN + CO = 1 Hydrogen, 2 Carbon, and 1 Oxygen atom per molecule group (assuming equal distribution). Let's add a formaldehyde molecule (CH2O) as a reactant. We've balanced out the H, one of the C's, and and O, with a spare H. Methane (CH4) gives us the last C, with 4 spare Hs. So, for every two reactions, we get 10 spare H's. They combine to make molecular hydrogen, which is harmless. So we get 2(CH4) + 2(CH2O) => HCN + CO + 5(H2). So yeah, in theory, we can mix methane and formaldehyde and get carbon monoxide and cyanide.

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greenTurtle1134

greenTurtle1134

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4 hours ago, KAL 9000 said:

HCN + CO = 1 Hydrogen, 2 Carbon, and 1 Oxygen atom per molecule group (assuming equal distribution). Let's add a formaldehyde molecule (CH2O) as a reactant. We've balanced out the H, one of the C's, and and O, with a spare H. Methane (CH4) gives us the last C, with 4 spare Hs. So, for every two reactions, we get 10 spare H's. They combine to make molecular hydrogen, which is harmless. So we get 2(CH4) + 2(CH2O) => HCN + CO + 5(H2). So yeah, in theory, we can mix methane and formaldehyde and get carbon monoxide and cyanide.

You forgot a nitrogen!

Nitrous oxide (N2O) would provide the necessary nitrogen, and has been known to be usable as a rocket oxidizer. We need carbon, so I'll just throw in some methane (CH4).  There will be excess molecular hydrogen, as in your example. We will have to accept this, or burn it with atmospheric oxygen to add thrust. Hey, they did say it was a jet engine, right?

Now to balance the equation!

(rolls up sleeves)

We need a oxygen/nitrogen ratio of one oxygen to two nitrogen because nitrous oxide is our only source of these elements. This means two HCN to each CO because HCN has one nitrogen and CO has one oxygen. 2HCN + CO... 2 hydrogen 3 carbon 1 oxygen 2 nitrogen. One oxygen two nitrogen is nitrous oxide, three carbon means three methane...

It's probably more plausible with propane (C3H8) because that's already enough carbon. Then we have 6 hydrogen left... that's it!

So we are left with:

N2O + C3H8 = 2HCN + CO + 3H2

...sure, that's plausible.

Edited by greenTurtle1134
"enough" carbon, not "one" carbon.
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KAL 9000

KAL 9000

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10 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

You forgot a nitrogen!

Nitrous oxide (N2O) would provide the necessary nitrogen, and has been known to be usable as a rocket oxidizer. We need carbon, so I'll just throw in some methane (CH4).  There will be excess molecular hydrogen, as in your example. We will have to accept this, or burn it with atmospheric oxygen to add thrust. Hey, they did say it was a jet engine, right?

Now to balance the equation!

(rolls up sleeves)

We need a oxygen/nitrogen ratio of one oxygen to two nitrogen because nitrous oxide is our only source of these elements. This means two HCN to each CO because HCN has one nitrogen and CO has one oxygen. 2HCN + CO... 2 hydrogen 3 carbon 1 oxygen 2 nitrogen. One oxygen two nitrogen is nitrous oxide, three carbon means three methane...

It's probably more plausible with propane (C3H8) because that's already enough carbon. Then we have 6 hydrogen left... that's it!

So we are left with:

N2O + C3H8 = 2HCN + CO + 3H2

...sure, that's plausible.

Whoops, you're right! And, yes, balls of fiery death are considered harmless (by my standards).

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Geschosskopf

Geschosskopf

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On 11/28/2016 at 9:15 AM, Cydonian Monk said:

... I think autostruts are to blame. You should see the video of this....

But the important thing is.....  Did its orbital parameters change while it was flapping due to violations of conservation of momentum because of the CoM moving?  I'm sure those on the Edge of Infinity would love to know :wink:

 

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ruiluth

ruiluth

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14 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

You forgot a nitrogen!

Nitrous oxide (N2O) would provide the necessary nitrogen, and has been known to be usable as a rocket oxidizer. We need carbon, so I'll just throw in some methane (CH4).  There will be excess molecular hydrogen, as in your example. We will have to accept this, or burn it with atmospheric oxygen to add thrust. Hey, they did say it was a jet engine, right?

Now to balance the equation!

(rolls up sleeves)

We need a oxygen/nitrogen ratio of one oxygen to two nitrogen because nitrous oxide is our only source of these elements. This means two HCN to each CO because HCN has one nitrogen and CO has one oxygen. 2HCN + CO... 2 hydrogen 3 carbon 1 oxygen 2 nitrogen. One oxygen two nitrogen is nitrous oxide, three carbon means three methane...

It's probably more plausible with propane (C3H8) because that's already enough carbon. Then we have 6 hydrogen left... that's it!

So we are left with:

N2O + C3H8 = 2HCN + CO + 3H2

...sure, that's plausible.

Unfortunately, according to this document, on page 8, the products of propane combusting with nitrous oxide "consist mainly of nitrogen, water, and carbon dioxide." This is because chemical reactions tend to favor the lowest entropic state they can find. HCN is a more complex molecule than N2 or CO2, so the atoms in the reaction will not form it unless there are no less-complex molecules they could form.

Because of this, I think what we need is something with only one nitrogen. If it can't form N2, it'll have to form N-something, and if we can balance it right, that'll be HCN. The best way to find out what reactions will result in this to find how HCN is actually formed. A quick google search shows that sometimes in house fires it can be formed when household products containing nitrogen burn with the air.

Digging a little deeper, I found that CH3CN is a combustible molecule containing only one N. Better yet (for our nefarious purposes), according to this document it actually produces HCN and CO2 when it burns. That document describes in detail the various reactions that take place and three "zones" inside the flame, but I think for out purposes, fueling a rocket with acetonitrile (which happens to be liquid at room temperature and therefore suitable for fuel), we could get CH3CN + O2 = HCN + CO + H2O. Since CO and H2O have low entropy, there is little chance of this reaction producing large quantities of other products.

So, if we mixed acetonitrile and oxygen at approximately similar stochiometric quantities, we would get the required products, cyanide and carbon monoxide. To find the correct ratio, we can use the molar masses and densities of each substance to find that for each liter of acetonitrile we pumped into the engine, we'd need approximately 459 liters of O2 at 20oC, or 2190 liters of air. The nitrogen in the air might mess with our stochiometry though so this was probably a rocket plane! :wink:

 

Conclusion: This was a rocket plane running on acetonitrile and LOX.

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