Stoney3K Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 43 minutes ago, pandaman said: I think it possibly needs something like the 'training camp' intro campaigns on FPSs. A walk through the controls and basic assembly and flight concepts in the form of a dedicated 'beginners' scenario. After which progression is made onto the more detailed tutorials. You mean like the already-built-in tutorial missions? Full throttle by default wouldn't really make sense on real launches, just like on a jet, you would ignite the rocket engines at near-idle thrust *before* liftoff (the STS main engines ignite at T minus 3 seconds) so the preburners and main combustion chamber can get up to operating temperature and the turbopumps can be primed with fuel. Just before liftoff, throttle is increased from idle (just over 0%) to flat out and the clamps are released. Now this dynamic would not make a lot of sense in stock KSP, but it might be useful if the engines respond a little more to the thermal system. A 'hot start' with the throttle at 100% would make the engine heat up FAST and eventually cause it to blow up, where igniting from idle thrust would not damage the engine at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kyle Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 The thing about full throttle on launch is many times we use solid boosters and they dont have anything but full thrust. Almost all of us build to launch at full throttle of what ever we set them up to be. It only makes sense to go with full throttle because of the solid boosters. Seems the only way to me. Just like it makes sense to have planes on the runway, brakes on and minimum throttle. Im fine with the explanation for the rocket engines needing time to fire up to proper operating status before the solids ignite as well but all those systems are automated, even the shutdown on fail is automated on the pad. So if ours was automated as well, then we would be real world-like. But we dont have any of that in a stock KSP build. Maybe that will someday change. The reason I made this post in the first place is for all the post you always see and will always see is the answer to the question, why doesnt my rocket lift off the pad, it just sits there? We all know the answer to that because we are veterans. Still, I bet we all still make that mistake now and then. It just makes sense to do it like that. just like it would make sense to have computer launch and flight control at some advanced point in the science ladder. Dont get me wrong, Ive never even used mechjeb, always fly them myself but lets face it, computers fly the planes and rockets of our modern day world. Im only suggesting a minor change for the future to make life more fun. In all honesty, I do hope we get more advancements built into KSP as it moves forward. Its come so very far already. I bet the devs hadnt really counted on it turning into what it has become today. They just wanted to have fun building and launching rockets, it has already exceeded that which is already beyond what KSP 1.0 was meant to be in the first place. I get the feeling we are heading into a somewhat unknown future now, The success of KSP has lead us down this path. Sorry for getting all off topic but I am just so excited about the future. To take a well used line from another simulation forum............How many pizza's do I need to send to make this happen? TY all for listening to my little letter of hope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoney3K Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Kevin Kyle said: The thing about full throttle on launch is many times we use solid boosters and they dont have anything but full thrust. Almost all of us build to launch at full throttle of what ever we set them up to be. It only makes sense to go with full throttle because of the solid boosters. Seems the only way to me. Just like it makes sense to have planes on the runway, brakes on and minimum throttle. Im fine with the explanation for the rocket engines needing time to fire up to proper operating status before the solids ignite as well but all those systems are automated, even the shutdown on fail is automated on the pad. So if ours was automated as well, then we would be real world-like. But we dont have any of that in a stock KSP build. Maybe that will someday change. That behavior is easy enough to build: Have the solids and the launch clamps in the second stage, liquids in the first. Ignite the liquid engines, let them spool up to above idle, and launch the solids + launch clamps. I'm in favor of having something like a sequencer that would do this in the future, but you *can* do it manually if you want to. The only reason we're not doing this is because KSP liquids can hot start, shut down instantaneously and re-ignite to full throttle within a flash without ever getting damaged. But I agree that having 50% throttle setting by default is silly, and that rookies need to be educated about using the throttle to get their craft to move. Especially since you start off using solids which produce thrust regardless of throttle setting, and move on to liquids which *do* respect the throttle. Edited December 27, 2015 by Stoney3K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pthigrivi Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Yeah sorry for being snarky, this just seems pretty minor to me. Setting throttle, checking SAS and brakes if necessary are just standard launch checklist things. In fact most everything I fly stages at 100% so whether it defaults to 50 or 0 makes exactly zero difference to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortoise Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I don't think everyone would like to have the throttle at full everytime they launch their rockets. I think Squad put it in the middle, because there's the people who want throttle at full, and people who want throttle at 0. KSP does have the the Z (full throttle) and X (Idle throttle) buttons to make this more easier. But if you're like me, I like to ignite my engines and spool the rocket up before I release them from the launch clamps. That's sort of the same for the SPH as-well. That's just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kyle Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Nothing snarky I seen anywhere, nothing at all, just a good convo for both sides of the fence. Thats a good thing! Its pretty hard not to agree with the other side of the fence too. Sometimes I wish we had a built in checklist, again, a pretty minor thing that you can do yourself. Normally, I go through the same sequence as everyone else. Im also aware that there are probably mods that do exactly these things. I love our mod community, they bring so much more to the table. This has been a great discussion, eye opening as it were! TY all for your participation, our forums are great here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 16 minutes ago, Kevin Kyle said: Nothing snarky I seen anywhere, nothing at all, just a good convo for both sides of the fence. Thats a good thing! Its pretty hard not to agree with the other side of the fence too. ... Nice analogy. And honestly I don't really care at what side of the fence we'll end up. It's just that SQUAD currently places everybody right in the middle with a fencepost up their sphincter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantab Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Count me in the "It should be 100%" camp. I think the majority of new players, when they go to launch their first rocket, want to see it blast off. 100% gives them the best chance of doing that. Once a player looks up the rest of the controls, and then starts to learn the finer points of rocket design, they can think about throttling down sometimes. But I myself still do all my plane takeoffs and most of my rocket launches at full thrust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nothalogh Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 4 hours ago, cantab said: Count me in the "It should be 100%" camp. I think the majority of new players, when they go to launch their first rocket, want to see it blast off. 100% gives them the best chance of doing that. Once a player looks up the rest of the controls, and then starts to learn the finer points of rocket design, they can think about throttling down sometimes. But I myself still do all my plane takeoffs and most of my rocket launches at full thrust. More importantly, just let us advanced players specify it in the editor, or just make the Auto Action mod stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoVampire Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 @cantab sounds suspiciously like a fast track to disasterville having it at 100%. too high a chance for a space plane to run away and torch a mission before the player is ready for it. even higher if its a new player trying to make a plane first before a rocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FungusForge Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 11 hours ago, Tex_NL said: Nice analogy. And honestly I don't really care at what side of the fence we'll end up. It's just that SQUAD currently places everybody right in the middle with a fencepost up their sphincter. This is perfect. On a mildly related note, I sometimes find it odd how there are mods to accomplish small things like changing the default throttle, or clamshell fairings, that for whatever reason SQUAD doesn't get around to adding into the game themselves. Maybe they secretly like watching us get annoyed by small things like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kyle Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Im am sure that Squad's plate is full and overflowing is the why of it. I bet they want to do all kinds of things that they simply dont have enough hours to do. Right now, they are just trying to get us on to the new engine and keep what they have still working. After that part is through, they will head off into another facet of where they want to go. Looking back at this thread, it really is a pretty trivial thing we are talking about. There are so many other things that need their immediate attention right now. I just hope the convo has brought some attention to it and allows it to go on the todo list somewhere down the road. If I had to guess, that list is VERY long. It seems a simple request but I bet it really isnt as simple as it seems. Somebody would have to code it all up and make sure it doesnt break anything in the process. Just like my trade, tool and die, seems easy from an outside pov but in reality, someone has to do it and get it right and make money too. Suddenly easy has slipped out the back door. I really dont expect to see any changes here anytime soon. Such is life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klgraham1013 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Keeping the trivial from ever become a problem is a sign of competence. Taking the minimal amount of time needed to fix the little things can have a big impact on the whole, and personally, makes me much more likely to believe you can accomplish the more difficult. Edited December 28, 2015 by klgraham1013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) 7 hours ago, FungusForge said: On a mildly related note, I sometimes find it odd how there are mods to accomplish small things like changing the default throttle, or clamshell fairings, that for whatever reason SQUAD doesn't get around to adding into the game themselves. Maybe they secretly like watching us get annoyed by small things like this. The thing that will really cook your noodle is that it used to be 0%. SQUAD actually spent time cocking it up by changing it to 50%. Edited December 28, 2015 by Tex_NL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pthigrivi Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Is this really a problem though? Are people really sitting around their computers raging about the default throttle when all they have to do is hit x? I'll be honest, this rates somewhere below cactus aesthetics for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) It gets discussed from time to time and has a mod fixing the issue. So yes, it is a problem to a significant portion of the KSP players. Edited December 28, 2015 by Tex_NL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razark Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 4 hours ago, Kevin Kyle said: Im am sure that Squad's plate is full and overflowing is the why of it. I bet they want to do all kinds of things that they simply dont have enough hours to do. ... It seems a simple request but I bet it really isnt as simple as it seems. Somebody would have to code it all up and make sure it doesnt break anything in the process. Just like my trade, tool and die, seems easy from an outside pov but in reality, someone has to do it and get it right and make money too. Suddenly easy has slipped out the back door. I really dont expect to see any changes here anytime soon. Such is life! You realize that between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5 they added a setting for it in one of the config files? Not only did they have time to change it, test it, and so on, but they also intentionally left it at 50% default. Time and effort are not relevant. They made the choice to have 50% default throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kyle Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Did not know that. Apparently, a lot of people dont know that. I must have missed that in the release notes somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razark Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Check the 8th post in this thread. It's got a fix that works for this. Or if you want to, just add the line "prelaunchDefaultThrottle = 0" to the file Physics.cfg in your main KSP directory and skip the extra mod stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwbrase Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Why even *have* a default throttle? Why not just use whatever position the joystick throttle axis is in at launch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razark Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 14 minutes ago, jwbrase said: Why even *have* a default throttle? Why not just use whatever position the joystick throttle axis is in at launch? If there is no joystick attached to the system, what should the throttle be set at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbacusWizard Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 It'd be nice if it could remember the throttle setting from the instant of staging the last time the launchpad/runway was used. That way anyone with a prefered default setting would only have to adjust it once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) 5 minutes ago, AbacusWizard said: It'd be nice if it could remember the throttle setting from the instant of staging the last time the launchpad/runway was used. That way anyone with a prefered default setting would only have to adjust it once. But I want it at 0% on roll-out and 100% on launch. The ultimate solution is incredibly simple. And I am surprised people here have not come to that conclusion yet. Every other default throttle thread reached consensus fairly quickly. Give the user the ability to change the default throttle. Add a slider in an advanced settings menu. Now you can have what you want and I can have what I want. Problem solved. Edited December 29, 2015 by Tex_NL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kyle Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 I guess I am going to use that mod Auto Actions mentioned on page 1. The all at 100 or all at 0 really wasnt the ideal situation. With the Auto Actions mod, I can at least set it in the VAB or the SPH on a individual basis and set other things as well. I guess that will have to do for now. Seems the best solution that I can see. Thanks for pointing that out, I guess I overlooked that post and what it had to offer. The other mod option is a bit unclear to me as to how it is used. You must have to add that line to the physics,cfg file or make a patch file so that MM can add it? Neither of those solutions are very newb friendly though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstah Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 2 hours ago, Tex_NL said: The ultimate solution is incredibly simple. And I am surprised people here have not come to that conclusion yet. Every other default throttle thread reached consensus fairly quickly. Give the user the ability to change the default throttle. Add a slider in an advanced settings menu. Now you can have what you want and I can have what I want. Problem solved. To be fair, they have reached that conclusion, in fact check a few posts above yours But yes, I agree. Remarkably, this is also the ultimate solution to, say, confetti fairings, which are also constantly discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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