What IS cheating? - The Thread to define the age old question!

[Temstar]

13 minutes ago, Tourist said:

I'm curious.... is there actually anyone on the other side of this debate?

I mean, its come up many times, but I don't recall anyone coming out strongly in the alternative. Is there a vocal cadre of KSP puritans which I'm just skipping over in the comments fighting, gallantly fighting a losing battle for orthodoxy, or does this subject just keep coming up so we can all strenuously agree with each other?

I think mechjeb is cheating so I don't use it. And when people say on the forum they used mechjeb to do something I feel they are cheating. I have enough tact to not be in people's face about it though.

But rest assured I'm silently judging you from the other side of the internet.

[Tourist]

4 minutes ago, Temstar said:

I think mechjeb is cheating so I don't use it. And when people say on the forum they used mechjeb to do something I feel they are cheating. I have enough tact to not be in people's face about it though.

But rest assured I'm silently judging you from the other side of the internet.

Everybody! Quick, he's over here, GET HIM!!

[klgraham1013]

Haven't read thread due to concussion by facepalm.

[Overland]

I started it because theres far too many hostile threads about such a thing

The community is better than that..

Such difficult things deserve the kerbal treatment

Semi serious, funny awesomeness in a friendly way.. That was my aim

Most people have read the OP and answered with humor and jest... One of the prides of our community

Thankyou

 

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Eating Kerbals...

 

Just teasing, I think failing to make a spaceplane and successfully using it is cheating

[GoSlash27]

KSP is a single player game, so there's no such thing as "cheating".

 In challenges, "cheating" is doing things that violate the letter or spirit of the challenge rules. When doing challenges, Not only will I not do things that the rules explicitly forbid, but I will also try to understand the "intent" of the challenge and not do things that I think would run counter to that even if they are legal.

In my personal game, there are a lot of things that I do that I really don't have to and other things that I could do but don't.  I don't look at them as "cheating" or "not cheating", but simply playing the game the way I prefer to play it.

Best,

-Slashy

 

[Tfin]

Not using a mod that kills all your landed kerbals if you switch away from them is cheating.

I wanted to go for a drive on Kerbin, like your train would possibly do, but I don't want to remove RemoteTech, which is somehow killing anyone I leave in a vehicle on the surface when I tend to my craft in orbit.

 

Seriously though, yeah, the only cheating you can do in a modded single player sandbox is telling people you did something differently than you actually did. Other than that, it's a matter of staying true to the way you want to play. Does Jeb's death during reentry matter to you? Then maybe leave him dead, and hire someone new to run the junkyard.

Hmm, he should remove that black background. I mean, it's been DAYS already.

[Trann]

I wish folks would stop telling other folks how to enjoy a thing.

[swjr-swis]

2 hours ago, Overland said:

Semi serious, funny awesomeness in a friendly way.. That was my aim

Succeeded.

[Superfluous J]

5 hours ago, NathanKell said:

breaking the laws of physics.

So now playing stock is cheating.

;)

[egoego]

1. This thread should be sticky.

2. To answer the question:

When you set yourself a goal, and some rules on what you can and can't do to achieve the goal, you have a nice game. If you bend or break your rules to achieve your goal than there are two reasons for this:

• Either, you feel good about achieving the goal: Then your rules where to hard and it was not cheating. 
• Or, you feel bad about achieving the goal: Then you cheated yourself, robbed yourself from joy and excitement you could have had. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by egoego

[Devo]

As a lover of Sci Fi, it's not possible for me to consider anything cheating. Endless fuel tanks, mechjeb.. you name it, i'll put it on my ship. 

We're flying little green men around, no need to take it too seriously 

 

[Overland]

34 minutes ago, Devo said:

As a lover of Sci Fi, it's not possible for me to consider anything cheating. Endless fuel tanks, mechjeb.. you name it, i'll put it on my ship. 

We're flying little green men around, no need to take it too seriously 

 

This is true.. Odd ive just realised that for all her adventures and missions in space combat on the galaxy railways season 1 and 2 anime

Big one..styled off a union pacific bigboy steam locomotive.. That happens to be space faring and combat ready with laser batteries

 

Ive never seen an episode where shes ran out of water.. Or required coal at all

 

Indeed her command center is in the tender yet the locomotive still has full steam controls on the engine herself

 

Ahh scifi...a beautiful thing

Could it be im not cheating if its got a prototype?

Edited January 20, 2016 by Overland

[nobodyhasthis2]

The answer has always been anything that can get you banned from KSP multiplayer option in the main menu. Although the logic fails to reach some people. 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[Overland]

Yes its automaticly hidden if you cheat

[RizzoTheRat]

I cheated last night!

New career game and I forgot to put a solar panel on my first Mun flyby ship.  Ordinarily I'd have reverted to VAB (which some people consider cheating) but I couldn't as I'd already popped out to the KSC as I'd also forgotten to upgrade the tracking station.  I could have de-orbited it then launched another mission, but I couldn't because I'm lazy.  So I just edited the quicksave file to give Jeb some electricity.

I do consider that a cheat, but then again it's in a part of the game I've played loads of times and was only to get around my own stupidity.  Had I reverted to VAB or had a save game to load I wouldn't have considered it cheating so it's funny how we all have our own boundaries, and how little there really is between something we consider fine and something we consider a cheat

So I think I don't consider it cheating if I know how to do it properly.  eg I use Mechjeb to automate stuff I can easily do but can't be bothered to (execution of nodes I've already set up, setup nodes to match velocities, etc), and occasionally to launch large craft where lag makes flying them manually a bit tricky, but always do my own landings and dockings.

Someone who uses Mechjeb straight away for all their operations is missing out on something in the game that I find fun, but maybe that's not what they're playing the game for.  Clearly I'm missing out on elements of the game such as driving trains round the planet or building submarines, but that's not what I play for.

I'm probably cheating in real life at the moment too because I'm browsing the KSP forums when I'm being paid to do work that I don't have.

[Delfinus]

It's a single player sandbox game, there's no way to cheat, that's all that ever needs to be said on this subject, and I wish the forum community could just realize that and move on to other, more pleasant topics. Just play however you want, case closed.

 

What angers me is not when people simply use something that others might consider cheating, but go on the forums practically worshipping it and saying that it makes no sense that  everyone in existence doesn't immediately abandon their current playstyle to go use whatever cheat or mod they're referring to, as once again, It's a single player sandbox game, I should fly my ships and build them in whatever way I want, whether that be automating my space program with autopilot mods or carefully building and flying my craft myself. So, to any cheat/mod worshipper's out there: Let people play how they want, what might be the most entertaining way to play for you isn't going to be the most entertaining way to play for other people, so you don't need to try and force it upon people.

For anyone who didn't want to read that big wall of text: There's no cheating in KSP, play however you want, and let other people do the same.

Edited January 20, 2016 by DolphinDude3

[Overland]

I think "Cheating" has become a trigger word of sorts for the forum of late the more I actually think about it.. probably also an element of that is the persistence of the "is it cheating if...." threads that although seem to be done by different users having no relation, the first few seemed to be downright troll threads.. in a community that hasn't really had to deal with that for the longest time..

The kerbal forum is one of the best places ive had the pleasure to visit and be a part of for much longer than any game forum.. by now most would have soured horribly and everyone turned against eachother, either its a credit to good moderators.. or a good community. I choose the later

 

I made this thread because I too became angry at someone asking  if somethings a cheat for the 1000th time, once post-work happiness set in I realised it was a mistake and theres much better ways.. much happier, fun and kind ways to discuss such a topic with adding jest and relying on the great people we have here to contribute

it remains though as if cheat the word itself being a hostile trigger.. such as the mechjeb thread.. if the OP would have asked who feels comfortable using mechjeb in x or x situation and state their reasons vs simply asking if its cheating to use mechjeb.. in a sandbox simulation that's single player.. I genuinely feel things wouldn't have descended to the lows they did, the same can also the said for a few other threads of similar titles.. simply using a different word might have given a better outcome.. most of the posts in this thread spare a few seem to demonstrate that very thing

its an odd conclusion to come too.. but I feel not an incorrect one. .and once again thankyou to everyone that's contributed its been a nice read on the way to and from work

 

 

[nobodyhasthis2]

42 minutes ago, Overland said:

its an odd conclusion to come too.. but I feel not an incorrect one. .

That feels odd because it an application of carefully considered logic in the face of the irrational. Odd as it may seem it is none the less correct. 

At the risk of derailing the thread. The basic psychology of this is worth thinking about. Simple rational logic is not enough. The first point to remember is this people will feel superior by pointing out the inferior. They feel superior about a social position on some imagined "moral high ground". The need to feel important is such that a section of the community must convert a single player game or an internet discussion into a competition. Solely for the right to brag. Anything that endangers this right to brag is a threat. One that must be attacked from their self imposed social position. We then very soon start getting into tribalism with the weak moral compass of internet anonymity. However in the end 

No matter how thin you slice it, there will always be two sides

 

 

    

[mcirish3]

2 hours ago, Overland said:

the first few seemed to be downright troll threads.

That is because tolling is one of the best ways to get the moderators to come down hard on ya.

[Tw1]

23 hours ago, RizzoTheRat said:

Although that's possibly cheating the forum not cheating the game  

True, but one cannot cheat this game. If you decide to earn X number of points in career on  hard mode, or to build a stock SSTO capable of a return flight to Duna, and you disobey the rules you've established, (by using infinite fuel, or cheating in more points), you're only cheating yourself of that sense of achievement.

 

 

 

[mcirish3]

hehe... remember those puritans we were talking about >:)  (Please don't jump all over him, just using the post to show we are not a completely in agreement community.)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/130226-modding-monday-gravity-turn-version-120/&do=findComment&comment=2368706

[mythbusters844]

I consider making a thread about what's cheating is cheating and making a thread about what's cheating is cheating is also cheating. Conversely, not making a thread about not what's cheating is cheating is indeed cheating, as is implying a cheating thread about cheating is about cheating is cheating. Furthermore, making a post about what's cheating is cheating is also cheating is cheating, which is cheating. The way this can be prevented is by subtracting the amount of cheating from the amount of cheats and multiplying it by the "cheating about cheating is cheating" value and adjusting the "is cheating cheaters in cheats cheating also cheating cheaters cheating?" cheating level by that amount, but this might be cheating.

Edited January 20, 2016 by mythbusters844
Cheetas cheat cheetos cheating cheat McCheater cheats cheating cheetos cheetas cheater cheats

[Pixel Kola]

Cheating is going into the .cfg files and making units of fuel .00000001 in weight and giving an orange tank 3 trillion units of fuel.

MechJeb is NOT cheating. It simply buffs out the saltiness from the grind of circularizing and spending 15 min to set up a rendezvous burn. It's a space program, if they wouldn't have some level of automation I'd be disappointed.

[swjr-swis]

33 minutes ago, Pixel Kola said:

Cheating is going into the .cfg files and making units of fuel .00000001 in weight and giving an orange tank 3 trillion units of fuel.

Or it could be prophetic, and millennia from now a copy of that cfg will be on display in the Alpha Centauri Museum of Propulsion as an example of the first discovery of neutrinos-to-quark-paste-cycle engine...

Edited January 21, 2016 by swjr-swis
because it's hard to spell Centauri