A ninth planet?

[monophonic]

14 minutes ago, RuBisCO said:

INTO THE SUN!!!

 

Cool! Erm...maybe not literally so... will it feature a laser to dump excess heat overboard?

[Darnok]

There could be more that just one more planet in our solar system http://www.space.com/31731-rogue-planet-biggest-solar-system-discovery.html

 

[magnemoe]

57 minutes ago, monophonic said:

Cool! Erm...maybe not literally so... will it feature a laser to dump excess heat overboard?

Lasers would only heat it up more. 
It look like it use something like the space shuttle heat shield and cooling fins on the legs who separates it from the body. 

[K^2]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Lasers would only heat it up more.

Actual lasers, yes, because coherent light is not good for dumping heat. But beam cooling is absolutely viable if you have an adequate energy source. The basic idea is that a radiator at 1,000K will have over 100x the heat output of one at 300K. So if you want your craft at 300K, but you have a huge heat flux coming in, say, from a nearby star, you can set up a heat pump to raise the temperature of the radiator, and beam the heat away in near-visible IR.

It is a significant energy drain, though, so you need either very good solar panels or a very efficient reactor to stay in the net gain.

[fredinno]

4 hours ago, RuBisCO said:

INTO THE SUN!!!

 

That's not going over the poles- like Ulysees did.

 

4 hours ago, monophonic said:

Cool! Erm...maybe not literally so... will it feature a laser to dump excess heat overboard?

It uses a sun shield like MESSENGER to make sure it doesn't get too hot in the first place.

[monophonic]

3 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Lasers would only heat it up more. 
It look like it use something like the space shuttle heat shield and cooling fins on the legs who separates it from the body. 

 

16 minutes ago, fredinno said:

It uses a sun shield like MESSENGER to make sure it doesn't get too hot in the first place.

You did not get the book reference. I probably should have put a suitable emoji in there.

[magnemoe]

57 minutes ago, K^2 said:

Actual lasers, yes, because coherent light is not good for dumping heat. But beam cooling is absolutely viable if you have an adequate energy source. The basic idea is that a radiator at 1,000K will have over 100x the heat output of one at 300K. So if you want your craft at 300K, but you have a huge heat flux coming in, say, from a nearby star, you can set up a heat pump to raise the temperature of the radiator, and beam the heat away in near-visible IR.

It is a significant energy drain, though, so you need either very good solar panels or a very efficient reactor to stay in the net gain.

Microwaves or other radio has an pretty good efficiency. Problem is that you have to convert the heat to electricity this will generate a lot of heat. 

[Findthepin1]

How did the other planets kick it out if its orbit doesn't get anywhere near the other planets?

[_Augustus_]

2 hours ago, Findthepin1 said:

How did the other planets kick it out if its orbit doesn't get anywhere near the other planets?

Have you ever played Universe Sandbox 2? It taught me the following information.

Planet 9 was originally in the solar system near Jupiter. Jupiter flung it out, and over billions of years it's orbit stabilized out there.

[Rakaydos]

3 hours ago, Findthepin1 said:

How did the other planets kick it out if its orbit doesn't get anywhere near the other planets?

it's periapse was raised by all the debris it swept up clearing it's orbit.

[Findthepin1]

Oh okay

Yes, I use US2 all the time (or did before I got a glitchy update, lol)

[K^2]

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

it's periapse was raised by all the debris it swept up clearing it's orbit.

Exactly. We usually think of planets as if moving in vacuum, but over billions of years, a star system really works more like a really, really thin gas. Over long enough time frames, planets actually experience an equivalent of drag from all of the collisions and fly-bys. The net result of these interactions is that orbits tend towards more circular ones. Total energy remains roughly the same, meaning the semi-major axis stays almost as large as it was originally. But eccentricity decreases, raising the periapsis and lowering the apoapsis.

[ProtoJeb21]

I have hopes and concerns for the official discovery of Planet 9. This will be the best chance scientists have at identifying how super-Earths with hyper-geology adapt to their location, how they affect their moons, and the limit between super-Earths and Mini-Neptunes. However, there are going to be MAJOR fudes about it.

Even though Planet 9 has a lot of gravity, it wont be enough to clear its orbital path. That's because it's moving veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyy slow, and its puny speed won't help it deflect comets and space debris. People are probably going to be fighting whether or not this thing should be a dwarf planet because it can't clean it's orbit. It'll be Pluto all over again!

[Findthepin1]

Plus the fact that a dwarf planet can't be bigger than a planet. 

[NFUN]

4 hours ago, ProtoJeb21 said:

I have hopes and concerns for the official discovery of Planet 9. This will be the best chance scientists have at identifying how super-Earths with hyper-geology adapt to their location, how they affect their moons, and the limit between super-Earths and Mini-Neptunes. However, there are going to be MAJOR fudes about it.

Even though Planet 9 has a lot of gravity, it wont be enough to clear its orbital path. That's because it's moving veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyy slow, and its puny speed won't help it deflect comets and space debris. People are probably going to be fighting whether or not this thing should be a dwarf planet because it can't clean it's orbit. It'll be Pluto all over again!

Most definitions of 'orbit clearing' are about how dominant the body is gravitationally in its orbit, not how much total debris is flying around. Since we are theorizing this thing because of gravitational effects on other bodies, it probably fits the definition.

 

25 minutes ago, Findthepin1 said:

Plus the fact that a dwarf planet can't be bigger than a planet. 

Yes it can.

[Findthepin1]

1 hour ago, NFUN said:

Yes it can.

It being called a dwarf planet implies that it is small. If dwarf planets can be bigger than planets, the name dwarf planet is misleading and should be revised. 

[ProtoJeb21]

The orbit-clearing definition is VERY unclear, so following the IAU's rules and you can demote flipping JUPITER. No planet is safe! Until we get a new definition for planet, which one scientist suggested last month.

[kunok]

There are parameters for defining clearing the orbit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearing_the_neighbourhood

Please, stop saying that even Jupiter will be an dwarf planet, there is a huge difference in all the parameters between the planets and the dwarfs planets.

Funny fact, Pluto is less planet than Ceres in the three parameters

Here they talk about planet nine being a planet based in the Margot's parameter, http://www.findplanetnine.com/2016/01/is-planet-nine-planet.html even in their worst predicted case it will be in the planet zone.

 

[kerbiloid]

According to the internet, the ninja planet is presumed to be 5..20 Earth masses heavy and (200..300)x(600..1200) AU far.

Angular momentum of a physical body:

What	Formula
A material point revolving around a center (i.e. a planet)	Lplanet = Mplanet * Vplanet * Rplanet = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun / Rplanet) * Rplanet = = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun * Rplanet) = = 6e24 * (Mplanet/1 Mearth) * sqrt(6.67e-11 * 2e30 * 1.5e11 * (Rplanet / 1 AU)) = = 2.7e40 * M * sqrt(R) = Learth * M * sqrt(R)
A rotating ball (i.e. a Sun)	Lsun = I * w = (2/5) * Msun * Rsun^2 * (2 * pi / Tsun) = = (2/5) * 2e30 * 7e8^2 * (2 * pi / (25 * 86400)) = 1.14e42

 

Angular momentum of the Solar System bodies:

Body	M	R	L = M*sqrt(R)/Learth
Sun			42.2
Mercury	0.055	0.39	0.03
Venus	0.815	0.72	0.69
Earth	1	1	1
Mars	0.107	1.52	0.13
Jupiter	318	5.20	725
Saturn	95	9.54	293
Uranus	14.6	19.22	64.0
Neptune	17.2	30.06	94.3
Pluto	0.0022	39.2	0.01
Plan.9	5-20	400..750	100..550

As we can see, almost total angular momentum is owned by the Jupiter and Saturn.
Yes, not by the Sun.

Probably they born very close to the Sun and their hydrogen proto-clouds intensively interacted with the Sun magnetic fields when being compacted into these superballs.
So the young Sun rotation has decreased from initial several hours to the current 25 days, while Jup and Sat have been thrown away to where they are, keeping all the angular momentum stolen from the Sun.
These two planets contain almost all solar system mass except the Sun, so their angular momentum (725 and 293) look faultless.

Both known ice giants have angular momentum 60..100 which also more or less correspond to their mass rank.

But looks absolutely unrealistic if a planette just of several Earth masses pretends to contain more angular momentum than even large and swell Saturn has.
If it’s one more ice giant or super-Earth, we can presume that its ang.momentum is not greater than 100, even less,
As its average estimated distance is (400..750) = 575 AU, its mass would be <= 60..100/sqrt(575) = 2..4 Earth masses,

So, even if there is indeed a planet, it would be ~3 Earth masses in the most bestest case.

Edited February 8, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Rakaydos]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

According toifthe inter tet, the ninja planit et is presumed to be 5..20 Earth masses heavy and (200..300)x(600..1200) AU far.

Angular momentum of a physical body:

What	Formula
A material point revolving round a center (i.e. a planet)	Lplanet = Mplanet * Vplanet * Rplanet = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun / Rplanet) * Rplanet = = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun * Rplanet) = = 6e24 * (Mplanet/1 Mearth) * sqrt(6.67e-11 * 2e30 * 1.5e11 * (Rplanet / 1 AU)) = = 2.7e40 * M * sqrt(R) = Learth * M * sqrt(R)
A rotating ball (i.e. a Sun)	Lsun = I * w = (2/5) * Msun * Rsun^2 * (2 * pi / Tsun) = = (2/5) * 2e30 * 7e8^2 * (2 * pi / (25 * 86400)) = 1.14e42

 

Angular momentum of the Solar System bodies:

Body	M	R	L = M*sqrt(R)/Learth
Sun			42.2
Mercury	0.055	0.39	0.03
Venus	0.815	0.72	0.69
Earth	1	1	1
Mars	0.107	1.52	0.13
Jupiter	318	5.20	725
Saturn	95	9.54	293
Uranus	14.6	19.22	64.0
Neptune	17.2	30.06	94.3
Pluto	0.0022	39.2	0.01
Plan.9	5-20	400..750	100..550

As we can see, almost total angular momentum is owned by the Jupiter and Saturn.
Yes, not by the Sun.

Probably they born very close to the Sun and their hydrogen proto-clouds intensively interacted with the Sun magnetic fields when being compacted into these superballs.
So the young Sun rotation has decreased from initial several hours to the current 25 days, while Jup and Sat have been thrown away to where they are, keeping all the angular momentum stolen from the Sun.
These two planets contain almost all solar system mass except the Sun, so their angular momentum (725 and 293) look faultless.

Both known ice giants have angular momentum 60..100 which also more or less correspond to their mass rank.

But looks absolutely unrealistic if a planette just of several Earth masses pretends to contain more angular momentum than even large and swell Saturn has.
If it’s one more ice giant or super-Earth, we can presume that its ang.momentum is not greater than 100, even less,
As its average estimated distance is (400..750) = 575 AU, its mass would be <= 60..100/sqrt(575) = 2..4 Earth masses,

So, even if there is indeed a planet, it would be ~3 Earth masses in the most bestest case.

That probably ties INto something called the NICE Model, which predicts that there was once a protogiant between IIRC protojupiter and protosaturn, but that over the course of planetary formation got ejected from the new planetary system. This modelI Gives thebest explanation of the current giant orbits.

So IF planet 9 was once the NICE giant, I would expect It to have a higher angular momentum than I

[kunok]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

According to the internet, the ninja planet is presumed to be 5..20 Earth masses heavy and (200..300)x(600..1200) AU far.

Angular momentum of a physical body:

What	Formula
A material point revolving around a center (i.e. a planet)	Lplanet = Mplanet * Vplanet * Rplanet = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun / Rplanet) * Rplanet = = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun * Rplanet) = = 6e24 * (Mplanet/1 Mearth) * sqrt(6.67e-11 * 2e30 * 1.5e11 * (Rplanet / 1 AU)) = = 2.7e40 * M * sqrt(R) = Learth * M * sqrt(R)
A rotating ball (i.e. a Sun)	Lsun = I * w = (2/5) * Msun * Rsun^2 * (2 * pi / Tsun) = = (2/5) * 2e30 * 7e8^2 * (2 * pi / (25 * 86400)) = 1.14e42

 

Angular momentum of the Solar System bodies:

Body	M	R	L = M*sqrt(R)/Learth
Sun			42.2
Mercury	0.055	0.39	0.03
Venus	0.815	0.72	0.69
Earth	1	1	1
Mars	0.107	1.52	0.13
Jupiter	318	5.20	725
Saturn	95	9.54	293
Uranus	14.6	19.22	64.0
Neptune	17.2	30.06	94.3
Pluto	0.0022	39.2	0.01
Plan.9	5-20	400..750	100..550

As we can see, almost total angular momentum is owned by the Jupiter and Saturn.
Yes, not by the Sun.

Probably they born very close to the Sun and their hydrogen proto-clouds intensively interacted with the Sun magnetic fields when being compacted into these superballs.
So the young Sun rotation has decreased from initial several hours to the current 25 days, while Jup and Sat have been thrown away to where they are, keeping all the angular momentum stolen from the Sun.
These two planets contain almost all solar system mass except the Sun, so their angular momentum (725 and 293) look faultless.

Both known ice giants have angular momentum 60..100 which also more or less correspond to their mass rank.

But looks absolutely unrealistic if a planette just of several Earth masses pretends to contain more angular momentum than even large and swell Saturn has.
If it’s one more ice giant or super-Earth, we can presume that its ang.momentum is not greater than 100, even less,
As its average estimated distance is (400..750) = 575 AU, its mass would be <= 60..100/sqrt(575) = 2..4 Earth masses,

So, even if there is indeed a planet, it would be ~3 Earth masses in the most bestest case.

The sun also revolves around the barycentre of the solar system people always forget that

[fredinno]

7 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

According to the internet, the ninja planet is presumed to be 5..20 Earth masses heavy and (200..300)x(600..1200) AU far.

Angular momentum of a physical body:

What	Formula
A material point revolving around a center (i.e. a planet)	Lplanet = Mplanet * Vplanet * Rplanet = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun / Rplanet) * Rplanet = = Mplanet * sqrt(G * Msun * Rplanet) = = 6e24 * (Mplanet/1 Mearth) * sqrt(6.67e-11 * 2e30 * 1.5e11 * (Rplanet / 1 AU)) = = 2.7e40 * M * sqrt(R) = Learth * M * sqrt(R)
A rotating ball (i.e. a Sun)	Lsun = I * w = (2/5) * Msun * Rsun^2 * (2 * pi / Tsun) = = (2/5) * 2e30 * 7e8^2 * (2 * pi / (25 * 86400)) = 1.14e42

 

Angular momentum of the Solar System bodies:

Body	M	R	L = M*sqrt(R)/Learth
Sun			42.2
Mercury	0.055	0.39	0.03
Venus	0.815	0.72	0.69
Earth	1	1	1
Mars	0.107	1.52	0.13
Jupiter	318	5.20	725
Saturn	95	9.54	293
Uranus	14.6	19.22	64.0
Neptune	17.2	30.06	94.3
Pluto	0.0022	39.2	0.01
Plan.9	5-20	400..750	100..550

As we can see, almost total angular momentum is owned by the Jupiter and Saturn.
Yes, not by the Sun.

Probably they born very close to the Sun and their hydrogen proto-clouds intensively interacted with the Sun magnetic fields when being compacted into these superballs.
So the young Sun rotation has decreased from initial several hours to the current 25 days, while Jup and Sat have been thrown away to where they are, keeping all the angular momentum stolen from the Sun.
These two planets contain almost all solar system mass except the Sun, so their angular momentum (725 and 293) look faultless.

Both known ice giants have angular momentum 60..100 which also more or less correspond to their mass rank.

But looks absolutely unrealistic if a planette just of several Earth masses pretends to contain more angular momentum than even large and swell Saturn has.
If it’s one more ice giant or super-Earth, we can presume that its ang.momentum is not greater than 100, even less,
As its average estimated distance is (400..750) = 575 AU, its mass would be <= 60..100/sqrt(575) = 2..4 Earth masses,

So, even if there is indeed a planet, it would be ~3 Earth masses in the most bestest case.

No, Jupiter and Saturn could not get enough mass in the inner solar system- they got huge layers of gas, as having ices in the outer solar system increased their expansion rate enormously.

4 hours ago, kunok said:

The sun also revolves around the barycentre of the solar system people always forget that

Which is constantly changing, and is often inside the Sun.

[Findthepin1]

IIRC it's always inside the sun. 

[K^2]

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

So, even if there is indeed a planet, it would be ~3 Earth masses in the most bestest case.

Yeah... That's not how angular momentum of a star system works at all. It is not evenly distributed even on the protodisc level, let alone after the planetary bodies start forming and interacting.

[NFUN]

On Sunday, February 7, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Findthepin1 said:

It being called a dwarf planet implies that it is small. If dwarf planets can be bigger than planets, the name dwarf planet is misleading and should be revised. 

It being called a dwarf planet also implies that it is a planet, when the IAU explicitly stated it wasn't. The name is misleading and should revised.