Interplanetary relations

[Spaceception]

So, some of you may know that I tried to make a Interplanetary politics, thread... That didn't do very well, so lets not re-create it

So this is the setting, it's 500 years into the future, and humanity has colonized Lagrange point floating colonies, the Moon, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Ceres, Callisto, Ganymede, and Titan. We also have the ability of getting to Titan in 5 weeks.

So, what relations would an interplanetary civilization have (Other than politics, religion ((Probably won's come up)) or Ideology)? What would mining routes look like? What would colony routes look like (People going to colonize other solar system bodies)? What would communication look like? What would tourism look like? And what would Earth be like?

Edited February 27, 2016 by Spaceception

[Findthepin1]

All the planets would be essentially independent of each other. There is no quick way to get between these locations. The asteroids would also be basically independent. Once something is in space it could be anywhere and no one is able to keep tabs on it unwillingly. 

Tldr the Wild West. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Findthepin1

[Spaceception]

3 minutes ago, Findthepin1 said:

There is no quick way to get between these locations.

I edited the OP to make getting around easier

[tater]

Why would you start a thread about Interplanetary Relations, then ask to not include possible politics? That's what International (and hence interplanetary) relations is. 

You could reword the title, "Interplanetary Politics" (which is exactly the same as interplanetary relations) then ask for no politics, religion, or ideology. You've basically killed any possible conversation. If the colonies/bases were controlled by terrestrial nation states, their interactions are political. If they become independent, that itself is a political process, and once they are independent, their relations are by definition political.

Edited February 27, 2016 by tater

[Spaceception]

4 minutes ago, tater said:

Why would you start a thread about Interplanetary Relations, then ask to not include possible politics? That's what International (and hence interplanetary) relations is. 

You could reword the title, "Interplanetary Politics" (which is exactly the same as interplanetary relations) then ask for no politics, religion, or ideology. You've basically killed any possible conversation. If the colonies/bases were controlled by terrestrial nation states, their interactions are political. If they become independent, that itself is a political process, and once they are independent, their relations are by definition political.

If you look at the link in the OP, My thread got closed because it WAS Interplanetary Politics.

Do you have a better name?

[tater]

Interplanetary relations IS politics. It is nothing but politics (albeit imaginary politics). You apparently want a politics thread with no politics. We could talk about our pets or something, I suppose. I have a dog and a cat. Since it's pretend space colonies, my pets live on Mars and an asteroid, respectively. If I start to discuss their potential interactions, that would be politics, so suffice it to say they are cute.

[Scotius]

Earth, and maybe Mars hold the market on luxury goods, tourism and the source of manpower (emigrants). Ceres and asteroids flood the market with materials and industrial products. Jupiter moons and Titan are new frontier - soaking settlers and industry output of the rest of the system, but offering rich opportunities of investment. Venus...is the red-headed stepchild of humanity - no one knows what to do exactly with her, but unwilling to abandon it completely.

[KSK]

36 minutes ago, tater said:

Interplanetary relations IS politics. It is nothing but politics (albeit imaginary politics). You apparently want a politics thread with no politics. We could talk about our pets or something, I suppose. I have a dog and a cat. Since it's pretend space colonies, my pets live on Mars and an asteroid, respectively. If I start to discuss their potential interactions, that would be politics, so suffice it to say they are cute.

It might count as shipping or possibly roleplay too. Best be careful.

Snarks aside, I too am not quite sure how to have an interplanetary relations thread that doesn't involve politics.

[Camacha]

We do what humans always do. We grow apart, find or invent differences to disagree on and wage bloody and unnecessary wars. We did it locally, we did it globally, we will do it interplanetary.

[tater]

Yeah, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the subject is by definition political.

[Vanamonde]

If you don't feel you can participate in the thread without breaking the rules, just skip to the next thread. Problem solved. No need to derail this one. 

[tater]

8 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

If you don't feel you can participate in the thread without breaking the rules, just skip to the next thread. Problem solved. No need to derail this one. 

Serious question, Vanamonde: Since relations between states (or planets) are by definition political, how could one possibly discuss Interplanetary Relations without it being political at some level? 

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by tater

[Vanamonde]

Serious answer: read the OP, which suggests several subtopics. If you do not feel you can discuss them without getting into politics, skip the thread. Your participation in it, after all, is not obligatory. 

[tater]

Will do. Sorry, but I only read the OP when it was first written, it didn't occur to me to reread it after it was edited (why would I?).

[cubinator]

The Moon and Titan are places I see the most tourism, because of the Moon's low gravity and proximity to Earth (which I assume is still humanity's 'home base' because no other planet is so habitable you don't need a spacesuit) and Titan because flying. Ceres seems like mostly industrial mining would occur there, as well as Ganymede and Callisto. Callisto would likely be the 'hub' for the Jovian system because it has reasonably high gravity and low-ish radiation, and it would be where the first manned missions to Europa's mantle would be launched from. I see little reason for Venus and Mercury colonies other than scientific (a great reason nonetheless) so I'd like to see what other reasons might there be to establish permanent settlements there. I imagine Mars as being the first colonized planet (even though it's so much farther than the Moon ), and I imagine it having at least a few cities whose night lights can be seen from space.

[Bill Phil]

Mercury, and to a lesser extent Venus, could probably get some good money by selling beamed power, using Solar Energy. Maybe no solar panels. Perhaps mirrors focus light on a container with a working fluid?

Maybe, if possible, the Jovians could mine Jupiter for fusion fuel. That could be their stuff. And volatiles are certainly valuable everywhere.

Earth, Mars, and the Belt have a lot of metals, and could probably make good money off of them.

Earth would probably see many pilgrimages, and many tourist would likely visit the gas giants.

[juanml82]

Can the Jupiter moons even be colonized? I'm thinking about exposure to Jupiter's radiation, mostly

[NuclearNut]

The solar system would be stranger than anything we can imagine 500 years from now.  In fact I would be sorely dissatisfied if we had absolute control over *just* the solar system.  To imagine how strange it would be for use to explore our future in 500 years is hard, but probably could be assisted by the recognition of how far we have already gone in the last 500 years.

How far have we gone?  Well look back, 500 years ago we did not have the steam engine, nor did we have the mighty machines of industry that go along with it.  In the year 1516 we did not even have the basic theories of how light was formed, how gravity worked, and the basic concept that the earth orbited the sun would not become commonplace for another couple hundred years.  The scientific method had not really been developed to any great degree and the most common source of energy was the mussels of workers.  We did indeed know the earth was round, and some of us did by that time have some inkling of knowledge of all the continents on this earth, but maps were poor and woefully incomplete.  Our main source of heating was wood harvested from forests, and steel was uncommon to an extreme degree.

This is what we had 500 years ago.  Now imagine a European intellectual from that time attempting to conceive of the future, of a new place.  What would they think of?  They would likely think of something bigger, better, greater, all by their standards.  They might envision greater cathedrals, more massive towers, greater castles, larger cities.  Possibly they might conceive of some innovative device or another that would now be recognized as completely impractical and wasteful by our standards.  But regardless of where they would go with their vision for the future it would be inexorably tinted by their experiences and lack of knowledge about future innovation.

Imagine now what that very same intellectual would see of our present world.  They would be amazed, confused, and recognize it's strange familiarity.  They would see our computers and be amazed by their ability to project images, to transmit effortlessly messages across thousands of miles.  Facetime for someone from 500 years ago would be almost surreal.  They would likely marvel at our transit and our means of moving, be impressed and possibly terrified at our aircraft, and be shocked at our ability to extract energy from fission, a concept that they would not have the faintest idea of before.  They would see how many scientific truths we have discovered and possibly become confused from the sheer volume of it.  A person who at most learned that the earth is orbited by the sun and moons, that there are four indivisible elements that make up everything, and is mired in what we now know is superstition would be overwhelmed by the mere realization that the earth orbits the sun and that their are over a hundred elements with many isotopes as well as the ability to break up those elements.   Our warfare too would be strange, they then had but primitive gunpowder weapons systems, utilizing basic explosives to propel low velocity projectiles at targets with a low degree of accuracy.  Now we have missiles that can be carried by infantry and that can guide themselves to their targets, lasers for removing missiles, guns that can shoot tens of miles, phased array microwave weapons for incapacitating enemy infantry, and explosives that can from an object weighing a few tens of kilograms output the power of hundreds of tons of TNT.  The political situation would be similarly confusing to them.  We have massive nations with armies larger than many of the nations in their time.  We have democracies as a common form of government.  We have the freedom of speech, gay marriage in many nations, welfare, the freedom of religion.  To them most everything with the possible exception of various bodily functions would be strange to them.

Now, imagine what the future holds to us.  Considering the exponential rate at which our technological development seems to accelerate, what we will see in the next five hundred years from now would likely be stranger to us than today would be to a person a thousand years ago.  To imagine that we would be mining helium on Jupiter for fusion reactors, or using solar panels on Mercury to beam energy to the rest of the solar system is, in my opinion, quite silly as what power we used 500 years ago is certainly not the power we use today. 

 

I know this is not the answer that is presumably expected of me, but I think it is the most accurate one.

Edited February 28, 2016 by NuclearNut

[Bill Phil]

1 hour ago, juanml82 said:

Can the Jupiter moons even be colonized? I'm thinking about exposure to Jupiter's radiation, mostly

Underground colonies.

Or, if you want a great view: Star Trek has anti-radiation medicine... So does fallout. Might exist in a few centuries.

Or just, you know, buils really thick walls.

[cubinator]

10 hours ago, NuclearNut said:

*snip*

I know this is not the answer that is presumably expected of me, but I think it is the most accurate one.

Seems reasonable, and I agree. We can't possibly imagine what life will be like in 500 years. My ability to predict things only goes up about 50 years, at most. I know we'll probably go to Mars in this century, but when Venus and Jupiter become viable targets is a complete mystery. But I think we can agree on one thing: It would be interesting to find out!

[fredinno]

22 hours ago, cubinator said:

The Moon and Titan are places I see the most tourism, because of the Moon's low gravity and proximity to Earth (which I assume is still humanity's 'home base' because no other planet is so habitable you don't need a spacesuit) and Titan because flying. Ceres seems like mostly industrial mining would occur there, as well as Ganymede and Callisto. Callisto would likely be the 'hub' for the Jovian system because it has reasonably high gravity and low-ish radiation, and it would be where the first manned missions to Europa's mantle would be launched from. I see little reason for Venus and Mercury colonies other than scientific (a great reason nonetheless) so I'd like to see what other reasons might there be to establish permanent settlements there. I imagine Mars as being the first colonized planet (even though it's so much farther than the Moon ), and I imagine it having at least a few cities whose night lights can be seen from space.

I would actually imagine LEO, the Moon, Mars, Europa (once we can get to the mantle), Enceldus, and Titan to be the best tourist areas, as these are the bodies that the public loves the most.

21 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

Mercury, and to a lesser extent Venus, could probably get some good money by selling beamed power, using Solar Energy. Maybe no solar panels. Perhaps mirrors focus light on a container with a working fluid?

Maybe, if possible, the Jovians could mine Jupiter for fusion fuel. That could be their stuff. And volatiles are certainly valuable everywhere.

Earth, Mars, and the Belt have a lot of metals, and could probably make good money off of them.

Earth would probably see many pilgrimages, and many tourist would likely visit the gas giants.

Only problem is volatiles are everywhere. Just go to the asteroid belt ifyou need some.

21 hours ago, juanml82 said:

Can the Jupiter moons even be colonized? I'm thinking about exposure to Jupiter's radiation, mostly

Yep, except for the inner ones, like io and Europa's (surface).

[Bill Phil]

2 minutes ago, fredinno said:

I would actually imagine LEO, the Moon, Mars, Europa (once we can get to the mantle), Enceldus, and Titan to be the best tourist areas, as these are the bodies that the public loves the most.

Only problem is volatiles are everywhere. Just go to the asteroid belt ifyou need some.

Yep, except for the inner ones, like io and Europa's (surface).

Yeah but not in as much numbers as the outer system. They're pretty rare, comparatively. More ammonia and oxygen/nitrogen is in the outer system, by orders of magnitude.

[fredinno]

21 hours ago, NuclearNut said:

The solar system would be stranger than anything we can imagine 500 years from now.  In fact I would be sorely dissatisfied if we had absolute control over *just* the solar system.  To imagine how strange it would be for use to explore our future in 500 years is hard, but probably could be assisted by the recognition of how far we have already gone in the last 500 years.

How far have we gone?  Well look back, 500 years ago we did not have the steam engine, nor did we have the mighty machines of industry that go along with it.  In the year 1516 we did not even have the basic theories of how light was formed, how gravity worked, and the basic concept that the earth orbited the sun would not become commonplace for another couple hundred years.  The scientific method had not really been developed to any great degree and the most common source of energy was the mussels of workers.  We did indeed know the earth was round, and some of us did by that time have some inkling of knowledge of all the continents on this earth, but maps were poor and woefully incomplete.  Our main source of heating was wood harvested from forests, and steel was uncommon to an extreme degree.

This is what we had 500 years ago.  Now imagine a European intellectual from that time attempting to conceive of the future, of a new place.  What would they think of?  They would likely think of something bigger, better, greater, all by their standards.  They might envision greater cathedrals, more massive towers, greater castles, larger cities.  Possibly they might conceive of some innovative device or another that would now be recognized as completely impractical and wasteful by our standards.  But regardless of where they would go with their vision for the future it would be inexorably tinted by their experiences and lack of knowledge about future innovation.

Imagine now what that very same intellectual would see of our present world.  They would be amazed, confused, and recognize it's strange familiarity.  They would see our computers and be amazed by their ability to project images, to transmit effortlessly messages across thousands of miles.  Facetime for someone from 500 years ago would be almost surreal.  They would likely marvel at our transit and our means of moving, be impressed and possibly terrified at our aircraft, and be shocked at our ability to extract energy from fission, a concept that they would not have the faintest idea of before.  They would see how many scientific truths we have discovered and possibly become confused from the sheer volume of it.  A person who at most learned that the earth is orbited by the sun and moons, that there are four indivisible elements that make up everything, and is mired in what we now know is superstition would be overwhelmed by the mere realization that the earth orbits the sun and that their are over a hundred elements with many isotopes as well as the ability to break up those elements.   Our warfare too would be strange, they then had but primitive gunpowder weapons systems, utilizing basic explosives to propel low velocity projectiles at targets with a low degree of accuracy.  Now we have missiles that can be carried by infantry and that can guide themselves to their targets, lasers for removing missiles, guns that can shoot tens of miles, phased array microwave weapons for incapacitating enemy infantry, and explosives that can from an object weighing a few tens of kilograms output the power of hundreds of tons of TNT.  The political situation would be similarly confusing to them.  We have massive nations with armies larger than many of the nations in their time.  We have democracies as a common form of government.  We have the freedom of speech, gay marriage in many nations, welfare, the freedom of religion.  To them most everything with the possible exception of various bodily functions would be strange to them.

Now, imagine what the future holds to us.  Considering the exponential rate at which our technological development seems to accelerate, what we will see in the next five hundred years from now would likely be stranger to us than today would be to a person a thousand years ago.  To imagine that we would be mining helium on Jupiter for fusion reactors, or using solar panels on Mercury to beam energy to the rest of the solar system is, in my opinion, quite silly as what power we used 500 years ago is certainly not the power we use today. 

 

I know this is not the answer that is presumably expected of me, but I think it is the most accurate one.

I would expect the solar system to be colonised in 500 years, with exploration ongoing into the diffused area (outermost kuiper belt),oort cloud, and planet 9. Interstellar is very unlikely, apparently, at the current rate of development, we'd only be able to arrive faster at alpha centauri than a probe launched later in 1000 years.

[wumpus]

Didn't we have a thread for the economics of a martian colony?  Once you eliminate politics, the main relations will be economic.

Also considering the history of puritans in america and the religious tolerance of the conquistadores/Spanish inquisition, I'd expect that outer space colonies will be pretty extremist, but you really can't predict which way (even without thread rules).  A lot would depend on who the gatekeeper might be: Musk (presumably any takeover of spacex would be done to prevent wasting money on a colony), Putin (or successor), China?.