[1.12.X] Kerbal Planetary Base Systems v1.6.15 [28. April 2022]

[vossiewulf]

10 minutes ago, DStaal said:

It's a bit lengthy.  Careful design can help, and Throttle Controlled Avionics can balance it mostly automatically.

Yeah I'm fine with automation but only after I've mastered doing something myself, so TCA remains on the shelf for the time being. I'm getting reasonably good at the manual landings, was quite proud of landing a 30t 12 wheel Buffalo rover within 50m of my Mun base flying manual whole way, I don't even use maneuver hold APs. 

I'm fine with the careful process also, I like tweaking things, but I don't like spending a bunch of time tweaking things if it's because I'm doin' it wrong  If that's the correct process then I'm happy I found it on my own through testing, always happy when I figure something out from first principles rather than from reading directions. They are all perfectly balanced now down to the .5% on the thrust limiters so they all fly straight and their extra fuel is positioned such that CG doesn't change at all as it drains. 

Speaking of which, I didn't give them that much extra, they have between 700 and 900 Dv now. They'll need 150 or so for de-orbit burn from a low 8-10k orbit. I am guessing that's enough but honestly a wild guess, I'm not sure how you calculate Dv requirements from an arbitrary point in space to a dead stop on a surface. If that's not enough, please let me know 'cause she's otherwise ready to go and straining at the launch clamps

Thanks for the very nice work with this mod, I also just downloaded the newly-update glass domes mod and I'm going to see if I can incorporate some of those into my new K&K base. I think that will probably look pretty spiffy.

One small...teeny...eensy teensy tiny little request. So small it can't even use normal-size fonts. Ok yes Vossie we get the gag but clarity helps too  The request is that you sort your huge numbers of quality parts into logical categories in the editor, having a master K&K category with sub-cats for containers, planetary base, space station, electrical, etc. etc. This is a self-created problem in that you've made so many great parts that even sorting everything into a K&K category as I've already done still leaves lots of scrolling and figuring out where that thing is 

I'll do it for myself anyway but it would make figuring out what you have so much easier,  it's pretty annoying to get halfway to Minmus with some function being a less-than-great option only to realize I missed this totally awesome part just for doing whatever that less-than-great option is doing, it results in repeated facepalms. Having all those parts sorted out will really help players, and the sounds of forehead-slapping will be reduced 14% KSP-wide.

And since I'm requesting something and I've already made great use of your mods, off to donate, I don't ask people to do free work. It'll be from vossiewulf, easy to spot.

Um... where is a donate link?

 

[Aelfhe1m]

23 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

Speaking of which, I didn't give them that much extra, they have between 700 and 900 Dv now. They'll need 150 or so for de-orbit burn from a low 8-10k orbit. I am guessing that's enough but honestly a wild guess, I'm not sure how you calculate Dv requirements from an arbitrary point in space to a dead stop on a surface. If that's not enough, please let me know 'cause she's otherwise ready to go and straining at the launch clamps

Most delta-V maps will quote around 180 m/s delta-V required to land on Minmus from a 10km orbit. But that will vary depending on your TWR and descent profile and how much manoeuvring fuel you need to target your landing spot. Having said that 700-900 m/s dV is extremely generous and should have no issue whatsoever.

For balancing your craft in the VAB have you tried RCS Build Aid. It can display engine torque as well to allow for very fine adjustments of part placement, fuel loads and thrust limiters to get near perfect balance on the first attempt.

 

Edit: one crude (over) approximation for calculating delta-V for landing on airless bodies is to take orbital velocity + suicide burn following a vertical drop from orbit altitude. For a more detailed real world approach see: https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/ApolloDescentGuidnce.pdf

Edited September 10, 2017 by Aelfhe1m

[vossiewulf]

26 minutes ago, Aelfhe1m said:

Most delta-V maps will quote around 180 m/s delta-V required to land on Minmus from a 10km orbit. But that will vary depending on your TWR and descent profile and how much manoeuvring fuel you need to target your landing spot. Having said that 700-900 m/s dV is extremely generous and should have no issue whatsoever.

For balancing your craft in the VAB have you tried RCS Build Aid. It can display engine torque as well to allow for very fine adjustments of part placement, fuel loads and thrust limiters to get near perfect balance on the first attempt.

 

Edit: one crude (over) approximation for calculating delta-V for landing on airless bodies is to take orbital velocity + suicide burn following a vertical drop from orbit altitude. For a more detailed real world approach see: https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/ApolloDescentGuidnce.pdf

Thanks! I'll feel better hitting the big red button now. It has 16 stages and weighs 2500 tons, pretty much exactly the same as a Fletcher class WWII destroyer, and working with new parts + trying to carry every single thing I need in one trip, let's say there has been lots of test flights. The last bug was driving me crazy where the second stage was decoupling and exploding almost immediately, taking out the third stage motor and I was moving ullage rockets around and fiddling all sorts of things until I finally realized I had set the drainex fuel sensor to trigger staging not at 0% fuel but 1%... so it was staging and then ramming the third stage. GAH!

In other words, I've been having an enormous amount of fun on a Saturday afternoon.

 

[DStaal]

55 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

Yeah I'm fine with automation but only after I've mastered doing something myself, so TCA remains on the shelf for the time being. I'm getting reasonably good at the manual landings, was quite proud of landing a 30t 12 wheel Buffalo rover within 50m of my Mun base flying manual whole way, I don't even use maneuver hold APs. 

I'm fine with the careful process also, I like tweaking things, but I don't like spending a bunch of time tweaking things if it's because I'm doin' it wrong  If that's the correct process then I'm happy I found it on my own through testing, always happy when I figure something out from first principles rather than from reading directions. They are all perfectly balanced now down to the .5% on the thrust limiters so they all fly straight and their extra fuel is positioned such that CG doesn't change at all as it drains. 

Even with TCA, it's good to have a fairly close balance, and to know how to do it.  TCA can adjust, but if you don't have something reasonable you'll have a ship that preforms very sub-optionally.  (Since all it really does is cut thrust on an engine-by-engine basis.  If your thrust isn't reasonably balanced, well, you're carrying engines you'll never have anywhere near full throttle.)

58 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

One small...teeny...eensy teensy tiny little request. So small it can't even use normal-size fonts. Ok yes Vossie we get the gag but clarity helps too  The request is that you sort your huge numbers of quality parts into logical categories in the editor, having a master K&K category with sub-cats for containers, planetary base, space station, electrical, etc. etc. This is a self-created problem in that you've made so many great parts that even sorting everything into a K&K category as I've already done still leaves lots of scrolling and figuring out where that thing is 

There's a mod for that:

 

[vossiewulf]

1 minute ago, DStaal said:

Even with TCA, it's good to have a fairly close balance, and to know how to do it.  TCA can adjust, but if you don't have something reasonable you'll have a ship that preforms very sub-optionally.  (Since all it really does is cut thrust on an engine-by-engine basis.  If your thrust isn't reasonably balanced, well, you're carrying engines you'll never have anywhere near full throttle.)

There's a mod for that:

 

WOOHOO!

He says, though you can't really see him, just an arm sticking up out of a pile of rocket parts...

[Ivy]

MechJeb does have a differential throttle setting, not sure how well it works but it should be helpful.

[vossiewulf]

Ok so I launch on a real attempt, and those rover wheels around the base hub destined for the Buffalo didn't break on launch this time, so I thought I was good there. Proceed to Minmus, get in a circular orbit of 6.5k-7.8k, lined up with my intended landing point, long complicated series of decouplings and I'm in control of the first unit to land and.... it has no fuel?!? Only thing I can think of is that I was using LFO OMS RCS on the lower stages, do they not respect crossfeed? Only thing that makes sense since I tossed a few thousand units of LFO when I dropped the third stage in Minmus orbit.

Also when I got to that point, I found the wheels were all broken again. When they break they say it's from overstressing. Any idea why? I've flown three Buffalo rovers to the Mun just mounted on his stack mount with no problems, so I'm not getting why these are breaking. Funny thing is when I added struts to stabilize them, they broke instantly on the launch pad. That was my super spiffy out of box solution that was going to get all my Buffalo parts there in one trip as per goal, so it's particularly annoying.

Sigh, more testing.

[Nils277]

@vossiewulf Sorry for the late reply, been a bit busy with another mod

About your requested sorting for the parts, there is already something similar implemented into KPBS. It's in the advanced filters:

This menu contains all KPBS parts filtered by their function. It mostly uses stock functions but also one tab for "Life Support"

Or do you mean that the parts should be sorted into different categories that are specific for KPBS?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Nils277

[vossiewulf]

6 hours ago, Nils277 said:

@vossiewulf Sorry for the late reply, been a bit busy with another mod

About your requested sorting for the parts, there is already something similar implemented into KPBS. It's in the advanced filters:

This menu contains all KPBS parts filtered by their function. It mostly uses stock functions but also one tab for "Life Support"

Or do you mean that the parts should be sorted into different categories that are specific for KPBS?

I was aware of the advanced filters, but they're not going to be of much use without considerable user effort. Doesn't matter though, I installed the filter extensions as recommended by @DStaal and it's a massive improvement. I'm still figuring out all the filter options but am very happy, much much easier to find things.

Edited September 13, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Rodger]

Request for a weird part, totally understand if you don't want to make one, but would some kinda procedural length structural part be possible, to make up differences in part length between different modules? Even if not procedural but just mesh switching for different lengths designed to even up differences in parts?

[Rafael acevedo]

Another piece that would work, if not proccedural is the kk inline conformal control module ( the skinny one that I sometimes confuse with the docking port ) if you take the SaS out and just make it a passable part. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Rafael acevedo

[Samapico]

Not sure if this is a known issue, but when updating this mod with CKAN, it fails because of the "KPBS.backup" file, which CKAN did not install itself. It aborts with a message along the lines of "CKAN was about to wipe this stuff, but this did not come from CKAN, something's not right".

Manually removing the .backup file fixes the issue. I'm guessing the .backup file is created at some point during runtime. I don't know if there's a way to tell CKAN that this file is safe to delete or something like that.

[vossiewulf]

Any advice on this? I'm getting it every time I come in physics range whether loading a save that places me there or flying something in. Half a dozen narrow escapes have resulted only in the loss of 2 of 4 Gigantor XL solar panels, not a big deal as I have a S.A.F.E.R. reactor. But that's mostly luck, it'll wreck it soon enough. Is it possible to tie the damned things down to ground pylons?

[Ivy]

Pretty sure that's a stock bug that messes up structures as they're loaded, spawning them high in the air. One that is scheduled to be squashed in the 1.3.1 update

[vossiewulf]

1 minute ago, Ivy said:

Pretty sure that's a stock bug that messes up structures as they're loaded, spawning them high in the air. One that is scheduled to be squashed in the 1.3.1 update

I think this is the traditional kraken, it happens right after seeing physics easing.... and OFF SHE GOES launching into the air and trying to tumble, each time I've saved it by switching to it and turning on RCS and SAS and been lucky enough to stop the tumbles and get it back landed flat. But that's not going to last. 

[Ivy]

4 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

I think this is the traditional kraken, it happens right after seeing physics easing.... and OFF SHE GOES launching into the air and trying to tumble, each time I've saved it by switching to it and turning on RCS and SAS and been lucky enough to stop the tumbles and get it back landed flat. But that's not going to last. 

Yup I've got a somewhat smaller base on the mün that I've been scared to heck of this happening to but so far I've been lucky. Will be a nice relief when this bug gets removed.

[LatiMacciato]

If you are using MKS, attach any part that can toggle MKS' feature "ground tether" (maybe the 6k battery, square one) .. maybe that helps not having dancing bases

Regards

[vossiewulf]

3 hours ago, LatiMacciato said:

If you are using MKS, attach any part that can toggle MKS' feature "ground tether" (maybe the 6k battery, square one) .. maybe that helps not having dancing bases

Regards

Unfortunately not using MKS, but thanks and I think you're on the right track. I have a quite big Mun base (below) that was wiped out once like an F5 tornado came through... seriously when I loaded a previous save the closest base objects were 1k up and appeared to have near escape velocity. Only thing left was a little Packrat that had never moved going HOLY####HOLY####WTH JUST HAPPENED. But since then no prob, and I realized that I had screwed several munkrete slabes to the ground and connected them to the base via KAS, routing them to various places. And I think those objects nailed to the ground with the rigid KAS pipe connection are what have been holding it down.

So I'm loading up a ship with ground pylon things and yet more KAS connectors, and since I finally figured out how to make MJ autoland I can try to switch to the base while he's landing and at least be at the wheel if it goes off the rails again. Which it probably will, so I have to figure out how to save it and get it down one more time and then I think my engineers can sort this out.

The fun part was getting those massive LH2 tanks/light towers off that tiny little EL launchpad. Minmus base will be testing structural enhancements for easier delivery of large vehicles.

Edited September 14, 2017 by vossiewulf

[dboi88]

@vossiewulf Turn up your terrain settings. It should lessen the kraken.

[Nils277]

On 13.9.2017 at 6:42 AM, Rodger said:

Request for a weird part, totally understand if you don't want to make one, but would some kinda procedural length structural part be possible, to make up differences in part length between different modules? Even if not procedural but just mesh switching for different lengths designed to even up differences in parts?

Hmm, a switching one might be good. Or a flexible corridor for KAS in the Base Profile...will think about that.

8 hours ago, Samapico said:

Not sure if this is a known issue, but when updating this mod with CKAN, it fails because of the "KPBS.backup" file, which CKAN did not install itself. It aborts with a message along the lines of "CKAN was about to wipe this stuff, but this did not come from CKAN, something's not right".

Manually removing the .backup file fixes the issue. I'm guessing the .backup file is created at some point during runtime. I don't know if there's a way to tell CKAN that this file is safe to delete or something like that.

Man, CKAN can sometimes be really annoying...will ask if such a thing is possible. KPBS can't be the only mod that is creating files....

Edited September 14, 2017 by Nils277

[vossiewulf]

3 hours ago, dboi88 said:

@vossiewulf Turn up your terrain settings. It should lessen the kraken.

Ok, have not heard that one. And it makes no sense whatsoever but my kerbals will start sacrificing little kerbal chicken flying animal things if it works, so I'll give that a try.

[dboi88]

1 hour ago, vossiewulf said:

Ok, have not heard that one. And it makes no sense whatsoever but my kerbals will start sacrificing little kerbal chicken flying animal things if it works, so I'll give that a try.

This isn't completely correct but this diagram will give you a general idea as to why low terrains settings causes jumping basis. The base loads with a section under the terrain and then gives a big kick when the physics kicks in. The higher your terrain settings the less steps there are and so the less chance of the base loading under the terrain.

[vossiewulf]

3 hours ago, dboi88 said:

This isn't completely correct but this diagram will give you a general idea as to why low terrains settings causes jumping basis. The base loads with a section under the terrain and then gives a big kick when the physics kicks in. The higher your terrain settings the less steps there are and so the less chance of the base loading under the terrain.

And... it works. I was able to visit that base a couple times last night with no kraken leap, not even a baby kraken wiggle. So THANK YOU that was hugely helpful.

[vossiewulf]

I'm trying to deliver a couple extra pieces via my EL pad, it acts fine launching it at KSC, where I can put its gear down and drive it around with no issues at all. But when I build it via the EL pad I get no "separate" button, it just appears as part of the base, apparently attached to the launchpad. The main pod is an OKTO2 in between the viewing cupola and the Meerkat. It also shows up with no fuel or EC. Any suggestions here?

 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Bluastrid]

53 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

I'm trying to deliver a couple extra pieces via my EL pad, it acts fine launching it at KSC, where I can put its gear down and drive it around with no issues at all. But when I build it via the EL pad I get no "separate" button, it just appears as part of the base, apparently attached to the launchpad. The main pod is an OKTO2 in between the viewing cupola and the Meerkat. It also shows up with no fuel or EC. Any suggestions here?

 

 

Build it with a decoupler on the bottom as its root part!