New MPD Engine Design for Kerbodyne Plus 1.1

[Bonus Eventus]

• Version 1: Radial Small Tanks & Rounded Shroud - 4 Nozzles
  
   
• Version 2: Single Large Nozzle 
  
   
• Version 3: Cubic Shroud - 4 Nozzles
  
   
• Version 4: Cubic Shroud & Round Magnetic Chamber - 4 Nozzles
  
   
• Version :5 Rounded Shroud & Cubic Shrouds  - 4 Nozzles
  
   
• Version 6: Round to Cubic Shroud - 4 Nozzles
  
   
• Version 7: Superstructure & Cubic Shrouds  -  4 Nozzles
  
   
• Version 8: Tapered Rounded Shroud & Cubic Shrouds  - 12 Nozzles
  

 

Hello forum people! Please help me decide which of the above engine designs to choose for the new MPD in Kerbodyne Plus V1.1! Please keep in mind that picking a direction should be about the general idea and not about level of detail. The finalized model will receive more detail than even the most detailed sketch presented here.

Anyways, thanks to everyone who votes in this poll for helping me decide!

[VenomousRequiem]

Version 7 for sure. 

Keep up the good work, man!

[Siphonophore]

VERSION 7!!!!!

ALSO VERSION 2 AS A SEPARATE PART IN THE MOD

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by AJTheMighty
ADD THAT 2M ELECTRIC ENGINE AS WELL EVENTUS

[Stone Blue]

7 or 8

[Siphonophore]

@Bonus Eventus

Maybe you should go with both v2 and v7, and add a pair of those rocket gimbal-piston things to each of the four engines on v7

[Bonus Eventus]

@AJTheMighty we'll see. In the mean time I'm working on the large RCS block

[Siphonophore]

@Bonus Eventus ooh boy!!! I wanna see a WIP model on the dev thread and it could look like this:

A half-octagon with RCS thrusters on the 45-degree sides between the 90-degree main sides and two on each end, and one on the top

[FreeThinker]

Could you also create a Model that looks like a real MPD engine?
, they supposed to look something like this

Notice the inner cathode, which is the main feature of a real MPD

Edited March 10, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bonus Eventus]

6 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Could you also create a Model that looks like a real MPD engine?
, they supposed to look something like this

Notice the inner cathode, which is the main feature of a real MPD

some of the models actually have a cathode in the exhaust port, but since the cathode glows it's hard to see with the other glow effects.

The design isn't dependent on anything more than a tube with the proper means of creating the magnetic field to separate the plasma from the engine body, housing for the electrical connections (as I understand, isn't generated by the mpd device internally) and the simple cylindrical shape of the nozzle. 
 

As you can see in the second image (a scale mockup of the two engine cluster) The outer housing can take on any shape they wish for the most part. Even in the first image of the vasimr test platform, the structural frame takes the shape of something (from a design perspective) arbitrary, in this case a hexagon.

The only real point of realism then is the nozzles. Which could be justified in any number of ways, but I take your point.

 

I'll just say that I don't know that I would want to make a replica of such a plain looking engine.

[martinezfg11]

This is cool! Reminds me of the ION engine pack of ye' olde KSP days.

Version 7 is the best looking out of the bunch.

You using MODO for these models? Looks good!

[FreeThinker]

On 9-3-2016 at 7:06 PM, Bonus Eventus said:

some of the models actually have a cathode in the exhaust port, but since the cathode glows it's hard to see with the other glow effects.

 

I guess it's the 2th model, which has a realistically sized opening, the other models could only serve as either ion or resistojet engine.

On 9-3-2016 at 7:06 PM, Bonus Eventus said:

some of the models actually have a cathode in the exhaust port, but since the cathode glows it's hard to see with the other glow effects.

As you can see in the second image (a scale mockup of the two engine cluster) The outer housing can take on any shape they wish for the most part. Even in the first image of the vasimr test platform, the structural frame takes the shape of something (from a design perspective) arbitrary, in this case a hexagon.

The only real point of realism then is the nozzles. Which could be justified in any number of ways, but I take your point.

 

I'll just say that I don't know that I would want to make a replica of such a plain looking engine.

As correctly mentioned this is a Vasimr engines which operates on a completely different propulsion mechanism, and does not contain any cathode. It does however require a large opening for the magnetic fields to properly work.  Note that you have to take care the engines are not affect each other as the magnetic fields would therefore vision 3, 4, 5,6 are inadvisable,

Edited April 12, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bonus Eventus]

@FreeThinker I actually was wondering about that. The thought that the magnetic fields would affect each other adversely, had crossed my mind. I actually didn't know that the vasimr wasn't an MPD. I see on the Ad Astra page for the vasimr that it uses radio waves to superheat the plasma, so in a sense it works similarly to a chemical rocket and doesn't use the lorentz force like MPDs. The magnetic fields then are only to contain the plasma and don't act to accelerate it. However, just so you know, I wasn't showing the vasimr as an example of an mpd per say but as an example of construction methodology. Thanks for the info though!

[FreeThinker]

Another thing you should take into consideration are the economics of MPG. A Magnetoplasma Dynamic engine become better the more power they receive. At KW levels, which you can generate with Solar Panels, they will be more terrible than resistojet. You need at least Megawatt power to make them effective. The more power you can provide a MPD, the higher Isp and thrust you can achieve. Although vision 7 looks realy cool and is magnetically feasible, it would be less efficient than Version 2 where all power can be used the achieve efficiency

Edited April 12, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Rushligh]

I can smell the KSPI-E from here.
 

8 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Another thing you should take into consideration are the economics of MPG. A Magnetoplasma Dynamic engine become better the more power they receive. At KW levels, which you can generate with Solar Panels, they will more terrible than rIsitojet. You need at least Megawatt power to power them. The more power you can provide a MPD, the higher Isp and thrust you can achieve. Although vision 7 looks realy cool and is magnetically feasible, it would be less efficient than Version 2 where all power can be used the achieve efficiency

what kind of things could possibly provide megawatts and kilowatts of power... how about Antimater reactors! or just big nuclear ones. Particularly KSP Interstellar extended reactors.

I have a feeling that your engines are gunna be used with this. (i already use the Kerbodyne hulls for getting massive antimatter reactors into orbit.)
on a side note; is there any chance of you adding Waste heat radiation to your solar panels? (for kspi)

[akron]

Where is the "All of the Above" option?

[Bonus Eventus]

8 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Another thing you should take into consideration are the economics of MPG. A Magnetoplasma Dynamic engine become better the more power they receive. At KW levels, which you can generate with Solar Panels, they will more terrible than rIsitojet. You need at least Megawatt power to power them. The more power you can provide a MPD, the higher Isp and thrust you can achieve. Although vision 7 looks realy cool and is magnetically feasible, it would be less efficient than Version 2 where all power can be used the achieve efficiency

You're spoiling me with all this great info—I really appreciate it!  If that's the case then maybe what I should do is make a single engine MPD and a quad engine Vasimr.

 

7 hours ago, Rushligh said:

I can smell the KSPI-E from here.
 

what kind of things could possibly provide megawatts and kilowatts of power... how about Antimater reactors! or just big nuclear ones. Particularly KSP Interstellar extended reactors.

I have a feeling that your engines are gunna be used with this. (i already use the Kerbodyne hulls for getting massive antimatter reactors into orbit.)
on a side note; is there any chance of you adding Waste heat radiation to your solar panels? (for kspi)

Well to be honest, I kind of intended that   

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/realdesigns.php

My goal is to have parts that will allow players to build ships like the Hope (MPD) as described at Atomic Rockets. However, I'm only including enough engines and generators to allow people to make a large interplanetary ship right out of the box. My hope would be that people mix and match other mods with mine to make some really unique and awesome spacecraft.

And yes I plan on adding waste heat for the solar panels and some of the other parts I have in the works, like the data server and fusion reactor.

7 hours ago, akron said:

Where is the "All of the Above" option?

Actually you can! Just check all the boxes, haha— Glad you like the designs

Edited March 11, 2016 by Bonus Eventus

[FreeThinker]

Notice that supposeded MPD engine, actualy looks most like a Electrodeless Lorentz Force Thruster, which is related to MPD, as they both use Lorenz force to propel ions, the big difference, it has no self field cathode. THe big advantage is that the engines does no suffer from erotion which makes it possible to propel anything you can ionise. The disadvantage however, is that the magnetic fields extends much further which rules out placing them together.

Edited March 11, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bonus Eventus]

10 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Notice that supposeded MPD engine, actualy looks most like a Electrodeless Lorentz Force Thruster, which is related to MPD, as they both use Lorenz force to propel ions, the big difference, it has no self field cathode. THe big advantage is that the engines does no suffer from erotion which makes it possible to propel anything you can ionise. The disadvantage however, is that the magnetic fields extends much further which rules out placing them together.

That was an interesting read. Seems like it would be really useful in that you can use more plentiful propellants.

[FreeThinker]

59 minutes ago, Bonus Eventus said:

That was an interesting read. Seems like it would be really useful in that you can use more plentiful propellants.

Well, the ultimate MPD would be a MPD T-Wave, this thruster can even use dirt as a propellant. In KSPI-E I allow the fully upgraded MPD to use Ore are a propellant, which can be useful when landed on a moon

 

[Rushligh]

all this is very arousing in an intellectual way. I love where this is going and can't wait for a full release.

Although i do love what KSPI has done, and i greatly appreciate it, i can't help but desire an Antimatter/Impulse engine system with albercurrie rails as apposed to the ring..
using bustard collectors for the exotic matter...

If you're not familiar that means a StarTrek style drive system. A central core using Antimatter and Dilithium crystals held in a magnetic field (which coincidentally also acts as containment and cooling) to generate exotic mater and Beta radiation that is magnetically converted into electric charge (Gigawatts). The reactors output is based on its draw (like the KSPI antimaters).
Both the Impulse drive (up to 1.0c ), and the warp drive (up to 11.3c ) require GW and exotic matter to run (warp engines constantly require a minimal electric power to maintain their magnetic cooling/shielding). should the warp drive require too much power, the reactor will begin to overheat (significantly gain waste-heat) and eventually catastrophically fail. warp engines, while they only prove faster-than-light thrust (and must be placed a certain distance from all other non-shielded parts, ie, everything but themselves and engine pylons) also act as mass radiators dispersing waste heat. having more/larger engines means you can go faster before having your reactor melt down. In order to support the mass amount of exotic mater used by warp engines, most are fitted with bustard collectors (the red things in front of the engine rail). they collect exotic matter when traveling faster than light speed (they operate at a curve, collecting optimal amounts at between 5c and 8c depending on how advanced the system.) Different levels of reactors can provide different levels of ExM and GW before going critical.
Impulse engines, while unable to provide drive thrust when at warp speeds, (they cannot translate an object over XYZ axis) when used in tandem can rotate a vessel at warp speed. Warp engines cannot gimbal. a more advanced ship would have impulse thrusters for maneuver at warp speed and docking maneuvers. Impulse engines CAN be used in atmosphere, but doing so generates a ton of waste heat. Impulse engines function like KSPI's warp drive by translation, not my mass/thrust ratios, however, larger masses will require more GW to translate.

I doubt ill ever see this anytime soon (I'd make it myself but lack the skill.) but i had to throw in my two cents.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Rushligh

[Bonus Eventus]

On 3/11/2016 at 8:04 PM, Rushligh said:

all this is very arousing in an intellectual way. I love where this is going and can't wait for a full release.

Although i do love what KSPI has done, and i greatly appreciate it, i can't help but desire an Antimatter/Impulse engine system with albercurrie rails as apposed to the ring..
using bustard collectors for the exotic matter...

If you're not familiar that means a StarTrek style drive system. A central core using Antimatter and Dilithium crystals held in a magnetic field (which coincidentally also acts as containment and cooling) to generate exotic mater and Beta radiation that is magnetically converted into electric charge (Gigawatts). The reactors output is based on its draw (like the KSPI antimaters).
Both the Impulse drive (up to 1.0c ), and the warp drive (up to 11.3c ) require GW and exotic matter to run (warp engines constantly require a minimal electric power to maintain their magnetic cooling/shielding). should the warp drive require too much power, the reactor will begin to overheat (significantly gain waste-heat) and eventually catastrophically fail. warp engines, while they only prove faster-than-light thrust (and must be placed a certain distance from all other non-shielded parts, ie, everything but themselves and engine pylons) also act as mass radiators dispersing waste heat. having more/larger engines means you can go faster before having your reactor melt down. In order to support the mass amount of exotic mater used by warp engines, most are fitted with bustard collectors (the red things in front of the engine rail). they collect exotic matter when traveling faster than light speed (they operate at a curve, collecting optimal amounts at between 5c and 8c depending on how advanced the system.) Different levels of reactors can provide different levels of ExM and GW before going critical.
Impulse engines, while unable to provide drive thrust when at warp speeds, (they cannot translate an object over XYZ axis) when used in tandem can rotate a vessel at warp speed. Warp engines cannot gimbal. a more advanced ship would have impulse thrusters for maneuver at warp speed and docking maneuvers. Impulse engines CAN be used in atmosphere, but doing so generates a ton of waste heat. Impulse engines function like KSPI's warp drive by translation, not my mass/thrust ratios, however, larger masses will require more GW to translate.

I doubt ill ever see this anytime soon (I'd make it myself but lack the skill.) but i had to throw in my two cents.

This video does a good job of describing my thoughts on the Alcubierre drive. 

 

[Bonus Eventus]

Thank you to everyone who gave feedback, especially @FreeThinker who pointed out many aspects of MPD design!

The clear winner, according to the poll is #7 with #8 about 9 points behind. However, after doing some more research I concluded that multiple nozzles were not going to get you much and with certain types of MPDs be impossible.

In the end I chose to make an ELFT (Electrodeless Lorentz Force Thruster) because they have achieved some of the highest thrust densities as well as having really awesome nozzles

I tried to take from #8 and #7 as much as possible to come up with something everyone would like. This design is still subject to change, however I feel it's time for some feedback.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Bonus Eventus

[FreeThinker]

It s looking great, when will it be released?

[Bonus Eventus]

Probably some time next week.

[VenomousRequiem]

ELFT... That's not a very clever acronym.