The Delta-V map in KSPedia

[Wjolcz]

I know the dV indicator is on the WNTS list, but once it becomes stock it would be great to include this into KSPedia. I think it's very informative and easy to understand even for a completely new player.

Props to whoever created it.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Veeltch

[Scientia1423]

Yes this should be in kspedia. AlsoI found another Delta V map: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/87463-105-swashs-delta-v-map-continued-22-nov-17th-opm-update/

 

[Rhomphaia]

I would really rather not, have such a map included.

DeltaV maps are not that useful and seem to be misleading to new players, if the number of threads like this I have seen over the years is anything to go by.

Better to leave it to mods to do something better than to include bad tools, Of course if after the stock DeltaV calculator Squad decided to include a stock porkchop plotter, that would be fine.

 

[Wjolcz]

3 hours ago, Rhomphaia said:

I would really rather not, have such a map included.

DeltaV maps are not that useful and seem to be misleading to new players, if the number of threads like this I have seen over the years is anything to go by.

Better to leave it to mods to do something better than to include bad tools, Of course if after the stock DeltaV calculator Squad decided to include a stock porkchop plotter, that would be fine.

 

How is that confusing? You just select your starting point and add things up. I seriously can not imagine any easier way of picturing it.

[pandaman]

I think it would be good to have that info in the KSPedia in some form, maybe the traditional 'underground map' format is not the most user friendly way, but better than nothing.

Perhaps it would work in the section giving details about each planet.  Either a small version of the map that shows just that body and Kerbin etc. Or a small chart that shows Dv to orbit, to and from Kerbin etc.  At least enough basic info to allow planning for flags and footprints missions.

Ultimately I think a full mission planner type function would be the best solution, but even that may be best as an 'advanced supplement' to some basic details elsewhere.

[Superfluous J]

17 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

How is that confusing? You just select your starting point and add things up. I seriously can not imagine any easier way of picturing it.

Because a new player will think he needs to burn 3300m/s to get into LKO (which he does) and then from there burn 950m/s to leave Kerbin's SOI (which will happen) and then once outside of Kerbin's SOI burn 130 to Duna (which is not even close to enough from there), and then he'll wonder why the chart is "broken."

That said, among the first "new for 1.1" mods I'll install is an entry in KSPedia for a dV map.

Another one, incidentally, will be to flip which part of the orbit is "thick" and which is "thin" in map mode, so your immediate future is the thickest part.

Edited March 28, 2016 by 5thHorseman

[Wjolcz]

Ok, I get it now. It was always obvious for me I guess. Maybe it would be good to have a simple note saying that performing a single burn while still in the SOI works best, or something.

[Pthigrivi]

Yeah I know its like a running joke at this point but really for the dV map to even be useful you'd need a stock dV calculator. I know the devs have been resistant for a bunch of reasons, but as things stand now unless players have played long enough to memorize this chart or have a bunch of mods installed they're minimizing KSP to open up their browsers, checking the dV map, checking ksp.olex.biz, plugging their wet/dry masses into calculators etc just to plot a basic Duna mission. Finding transfer windows by trial an error isn't really reasonable time wise, and leaving the game to do this kind of homework can't possibly be right. I don't think we need stock KER, but there really should be some basic mission planning tools that provide players with the information they need to play the game. In the past I've suggested a simple mission estimator with drop downs for players to select starting body and target body and be provided with:

Kerbin > Duna

 

Time until next Transfer window: x [Set Alarm]

Delta V to Orbit (100km): x

Delta V to Transfer: x

Time until Intercept: x [Set Alarm]

Delta V to Capture (100km): x

Delta V to Surface: x
 

With this, a deltaV calculator in the engineer's report, and a basic alarm clock in the Tracking Station players would have all they need to plan complex interplanetary missions. This could (and probably should) be staged in with building upgrades so early on players could get an intuitive sense of fuel/engine ratios, get a sense by trial and error of how transfers work during early mun and minmus missions, etc. But by the mid-late game it takes so much time to carefully construct an interplanetary vessel, often with some level of orbital construction, that requiring players to just wing it on interplanetary travel with no information seems pretty unreasonable.

Another thing to consider is if players aren't encouraged to optimize their fuel, especially on long missions, its going to lead them to build really, crazy overbuilt rockets, which in turn leads to increased part count, which in turn leads to game lag. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Pthigrivi

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I agree that there really should be a transfer window plotter in stock to plan interplanetary missions- the dV requirements vary so wildly depending on launch times.

[Temeter]

Also transfer windows. Really weird how the game always tries to hide how you actually do interplanetary stuff.

[Whirligig Girl]

40 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Also transfer windows. Really weird how the game always tries to hide how you actually do interplanetary stuff.

Transfer Window, or even just phase angles or a protractor, is far far more valuable than delta-v maps in my opinion.

 

Actually, they ought to put an option to overlay Jeb's Ultimate Protractor onto the screen. A mod maybe? I don't have any transparent paper.

[Temeter]

4 minutes ago, GregroxMun said:

Transfer Window, or even just phase angles or a protractor, is far far more valuable than delta-v maps in my opinion.

 

Actually, they ought to put an option to overlay Jeb's Ultimate Protractor onto the screen. A mod maybe? I don't have any transparent paper.

That's clever. Not always the most efficient window tho.

[Whirligig Girl]

Just now, Temeter said:

That's clever. Not always the most efficient window tho.

It gives you the Hohmann Transfer window though. That's the minimum energy maximum time transfer.

[Temeter]

Just now, GregroxMun said:

It gives you the Hohmann Transfer window though. That's the minimum energy maximum time transfer.

Yeah, but don't you get the most efficient Hohmann Transfer when the rendezvous is directly at your apoapsis around the sun?

Just be a small difference, tho.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

2 hours ago, GregroxMun said:

Transfer Window, or even just phase angles or a protractor, is far far more valuable than delta-v maps in my opinion.

 

Actually, they ought to put an option to overlay Jeb's Ultimate Protractor onto the screen. A mod maybe? I don't have any transparent paper.

Wow, that is a cool little tool, and it seems simple enough to conform to the philosophy of KSP.

Edit- apparently only good for circular orbits though, a proper porkchop plot would still make a lot of sense.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Waxing_Kibbous

[Superfluous J]

I still think a lot of "transfer window" problems would be resolved if you could place "Planning nodes" onto planet and moon orbits that were exactly like maneuver nodes with 3 differences:

1. They didn't attach to ships.
2. They couldn't be executed directly.
3. There was some way to "create a maneuver node for this ship to match the planning node." (this is the hard part, I suspect)

That way you could put a Planning Node onto Kerbin's orbit, draw a burn up to Duna's orbit, drag it around Kerbin's orbit until you got an encounter, tweaked the encounter until it looked nice, and then notice that it's actually 8 months before the window arrives. Then you time warp 7.5 months, launch your ship, right click the orbit, and "create a maneuver node to match the planning node" and bam, you've got your ejection burn.

[Alshain]

15 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Because a new player will think he needs to burn 3300m/s to get into LKO (which he does) and then from there burn 950m/s to leave Kerbin's SOI (which will happen) and then once outside of Kerbin's SOI burn 130 to Duna (which is not even close to enough from there), and then he'll wonder why the chart is "broken."

That said, among the first "new for 1.1" mods I'll install is an entry in KSPedia for a dV map.

Another one, incidentally, will be to flip which part of the orbit is "thick" and which is "thin" in map mode, so your immediate future is the thickest part.

I think the bigger problem is that the maps are not an exact science, depending on your skill level they could have you carrying way too much fuel or short change you quite a bit.  The maps themselves vary the amount of dV needed based on the person creating them.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Alshain

[Blaarkies]

21 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Because a new player will think he needs to burn 3300m/s to get into LKO (which he does) and then from there burn 950m/s to leave Kerbin's SOI (which will happen) and then once outside of Kerbin's SOI burn 130 to Duna (which is not even close to enough from there), and then he'll wonder why the chart is "broken."

That said, among the first "new for 1.1" mods I'll install is an entry in KSPedia for a dV map.

Another one, incidentally, will be to flip which part of the orbit is "thick" and which is "thin" in map mode, so your immediate future is the thickest part.

That is true, most players probably did do the "get to Kerbol orbit and then rendezvous to the planet"...but what about a "skill" setting. So you choose you destination, the dv map gives the minimum dv needed for the mission and then you choose your skill:

-Beginner        -> adds 100% extra dv to that minimum figure

-Intermediate -> adds 50%...

-Pro                -> adds 5%...

-Manley          -> adds -30%...

After 2 failed attempts, a player will quickly learn their actual skill level. This is not a perfect solution by any means, it actually needs to teach Oberth to new players...gently

[Superfluous J]

I would much rather KSPedia have an entry on "Getting to Duna," one on "Getting to Eve," etc. Maybe it does. I won't know until someone tells me or 1.1 gets released in full.

I also agree that without a stock dV readout for ships, the listings of how much you need isn't all that important. If you care, you're already leaving the game to get the information. If you don't care, then the numbers won't matter to or help you.

[mattinoz]

13 hours ago, GregroxMun said:

Transfer Window, or even just phase angles or a protractor, is far far more valuable than delta-v maps in my opinion.

 

Actually, they ought to put an option to overlay Jeb's Ultimate Protractor onto the screen. A mod maybe? I don't have any transparent paper.

Is that a Fibonacci spiral?

Nope not really but it is beautiful none the less and just so freaking elegant. 

This would work even in the outside the SOI of a distinct body. This would be great for stock all the information the players needs without being handed the solution on a plater.

[Wjolcz]

On 28.03.2016 at 8:42 PM, GregroxMun said:

Transfer Window, or even just phase angles or a protractor, is far far more valuable than delta-v maps in my opinion.

 

Actually, they ought to put an option to overlay Jeb's Ultimate Protractor onto the screen. A mod maybe? I don't have any transparent paper.

This is genius.

 

On 29.03.2016 at 10:39 AM, Blaarkies said:

That is true, most players probably did do the "get to Kerbol orbit and then rendezvous to the planet"...but what about a "skill" setting. So you choose you destination, the dv map gives the minimum dv needed for the mission and then you choose your skill:

-Beginner        -> adds 100% extra dv to that minimum figure

-Intermediate -> adds 50%...

-Pro                -> adds 5%...

-Manley          -> adds -30%...

After 2 failed attempts, a player will quickly learn their actual skill level. This is not a perfect solution by any means, it actually needs to teach Oberth to new players...gently

This is ridiculous.