[1.3.0] Kerbalism v1.2.9

[APlayer]

@ShotgunNinja, if I may ask, what's your general plans for Kerbalism in the distant future? A complete stock overhaul for realism, something midrange between RO and stock? Or more like just a few mechanics you like to use (I presume) which is how it is now? Or something else entirely?

[Yemo]

47 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@Yemo Here are the new consumption rates in the 'default' profile.

Food: 1.77 Kg/day (6.29 units/day)
Water: 2.42 Kg/day (2.42 units/day)
Oxygen: 0.84 Kg/day (595.74 units/day)

I'm using the same resource definitions as CRP.

These are the TAC life support values (entries for humans for reference and kerbals for ingame application):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DkWf210viRSNcV8tvDv30vZ_iACj6GeY1Lf_4JdZYds/edit#gid=0

 

Note that nearly all 3rd party containers and converters regarding these three resources were balanced with those tac values and ratios in mind. Containers holding all three resources have them in amounts giving the same endurance (eg enough food, water, oxygen for 100 days) for those ratios. Many converters were balanced to support multiples of 1 kerbal (or 1.02 to be exact). Those configs have been around for years.

Question to you: Is it more important for you to have nearly out of the box compatibility with a multitude of mods, or are your specific values more important to you, breaking other mods values in the process?

From what I can see, your values are not too far off from TAC spreadsheat values for humans, except for the water consumption.

	TAC (human reference per earth day)	TAC kerbals per kerbin day	Kerbalism
Food	1.644	0.10275125	1.77
Water	3.8666	0.2416625	2.42
Oxygen	0.835	0.0521875	0.84

 

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Yemo

[Drew Kerman]

24 minutes ago, APlayer said:

@ShotgunNinja, if I may ask, what's your general plans for Kerbalism in the distant future? A complete stock overhaul for realism, something midrange between RO and stock? Or more like just a few mechanics you like to use (I presume) which is how it is now? Or something else entirely?

 

[APlayer]

41 minutes ago, Drew Kerman said:

 

Not quite what I meant...

Not features to add. That is mid-term for me. I mean the general idea and purpose of the mod, what is it supposed to be, generally?

[Gotmachine]

4 hours ago, Yemo said:

Note that nearly all 3rd party containers and converters regarding these three resources were balanced with those tac values and ratios in mind. Containers holding all three resources have them in amounts giving the same endurance (eg enough food, water, oxygen for 100 days) for those ratios. Many converters were balanced to support multiples of 1 kerbal (or 1.02 to be exact). Those configs have been around for years.

Question to you: Is it more important for you to have nearly out of the box compatibility with a multitude of mods, or are your specific values more important to you, breaking other mods values in the process?

From my Kerbalism player point of view, I think the most important is to have balanced values for gameplay. There is a major difference between kerbalism and TAC-LS : oxygen (and water ?) is recycled continuously (thanks to the background simulation) and the greenhouse is used to produce food in space. There is probably some balancing to be done, seems to me that the proposed values for the next Kerbalism release are way too high but with the TAC-LS values, recycling and growing food isn't worth the extra greenhouse mass & EC consumption. Looking at the end of the TAC-LS spreadsheet, 6.5 tons of supplies for 6 kerbals for 3000 days is next to nothing compared to what is right for Kerbalism.

About the "multitude of mods", I would like to ask which ones ? I know that Kerbal Planetary Base Systems has support for the Kerbalism greenhouse partmodule. About storage mods, since consumption ratios aren't fixed in kerbalism (due to recyclers), I think multi-resource containers can have arbitrary ratios. In any case, all this can be fixed with a few MM patch, I don't see why such mods wouldn't support the specifics of Kerbalism LS the same way they already support TAC, USI, IFI or Snacks.

But anyway, since a lot of things are going to change with next release, I think it's time to wait until we can playtest the new balance of things.

 

4 hours ago, APlayer said:

@ShotgunNinja, if I may ask, what's your general plans for Kerbalism in the distant future? A complete stock overhaul for realism, something midrange between RO and stock? Or more like just a few mechanics you like to use (I presume) which is how it is now? Or something else entirely?

From what I've heard and seen, seems to me that the main purpose of this mod is to extend the stock gameplay, globally increasing the parameters you should worry about and making time a critical factor in most missions. And doing so by fixing / refining stock mechanics (like the background consumption, signal,  transmission & science) or introducing new mechanics based on real space things like life support, quality of life, malfunctions or radiations.

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Gotmachine

[The-Doctor]

@ShotgunNinja sorry if I asked this before, but would my kerbals go mad on a multi-year mission to an outer gas giant in Galileo's planets pack? Or would having a massive ship reduce time to instability, I want to avoid deep freeze. To add to that, would kerbals also go mad in a colony? Because I want to colonize and now that I think of it, my Kerbals may go insane and die

[Gotmachine]

@The-Doctor Adding a lot of habitat space and entertainment part can give you something like 12 kerbin years before instability (but this require a really large ship). There is a "on ground" bonus for planetary bases. However, something to take into account is that "instability points" are accumulated very quickly when kerbals are in a restricted space, typically when you put them in a lander, a rover or in a transfer vessel. There is also a variance of something like +/- 25 % for each individual. I recommend to plan for 50 % more than your estimated mission duration, and more if you plan to have kerbals out of the "main habitat" for some time.

I suggested to @ShotgunNinja a change so a large enough QOL factor can remove accumulated "instability points". In conjunction with the radiation shield, this would give a (very hard) way of having kerbals for extended times out of the kerbin SOI.

[ShotgunNinja]

@The-Doctor Balance-wise the stress now work along these lines: kerbals break down after 10 thousand days (24 years), in the best conditions. These conditions are determined by:

• living space (volume per-capita, against an idealized living space of 40 m^3)
• comforts (a set of 5 different factors, that are provided by environment conditions and/or by parts)
• pressurized habitat (that is maintained by consuming Nitrogen)

Each one of these 3 factors increase the time to breakdown by an order of magnitude. So with none of these, kerbals break down after 10 days.

Here are the comforts:

Comfort	Environment condition	Parts that provide it	How much does it contribute
firm-ground	landed on a body	gravity ring	0.4
exercise	none	hitchiker treadmill	0.2
not alone	more than 1 crew	...	0.1
call home	vessel can communicate with mission control	none	0.1
panorama	none	cupola	0.1

All of the above can be configured, this is just what the default profile is using.

[ShotgunNinja]

At last.

This is an experimental version, potentially unstable and unbalanced.
Report any undesired behaviour you encounter. 

Version: v1.1.5-pre1
Require: KSP 1.2.1, ModuleManager 2.7.5
Download: github

 

 

 

Changelog:

Spoiler

  * this is a summary of the changes  
  Rule framework
    - multiple profiles can cohexist in the same installation, only one is enabled from user settings
    - Process: vessel-wide resource consumer/producers driven by modifiers        
    - split Supply out of Rule, for additional flexibility
    - can use resource amount as a modifier
    - many new modifiers, to leverage the information provided by habitat
  Features framework
    - user specified features are set by a flag in settings
    - other features are detected automatically from the modifiers used in the active profile    
    - inject MM patches during loading screen, before MM is executed
    - third parties can check for specific features or profiles by using NEEDS[]
    - parts are enabled/disabled automatically depending on features used    
  Resource cache
    - new 'exact, order-agnostic' algorithm for consumption/production chains at arbitrary timesteps
    - consider interval-based outputs in depletion estimates    
  Configure
    - new module Configure: can select between setups in the VAB or in flight
    - setups can specify resources and/or modules
    - setups can include extra cost and mass
    - setups can be unlocked with technologies
    - configuration UI, that show info on modules and resources for a setup    
  Habitat
    - new module Habitat: replace CLS internal spaces
    - used to calculate internal volume in m^3, and surface in m^2    
    - can be disabled/enabled even in flight to configure the internal space as required
    - support inflatable habitats
    - can be pressurized/depressurized
    - can keep track of level of CO2 in the internal atmosphere
    - can be added to parts with no crew capacity
  Greenhouse
    - improved module: Greenhouse
    - lamps intensity is determined automatically, and is expressed in W/m^2
    - can have radiation and pressure thresholds for growth
    - can require an arbitrary set of input resources
    - can produce an arbitrary set of by-product resources
    - growth will degenerate if lighting/radiation/pressure conditions aren't met      
  ISRU
    - planetary resource definitions based on real data
    - new module Harvester: for crustal/atmospheric resource extraction, use abundance/pressure thresholds    
  Wet workshops
    - some stock tanks can now be configured as either fuel tanks or habitats, even in flight    
  QualityOfLife
    - new module Comfort: replace Entertainment and provide a specific bonus, added to some stock parts
    - modified module GravityRing: now provide firm-ground bonus
    - living space is calculated from volume per-capita    
  Radiation
    - shielding required is now determined by habitat surface, and map to millimeters of Pb
    - rtg emit a small amount of ratiation
  Planner
    - single page layout, with panel selection
    - show consumers/producers of a resource in tooltip
    - improved/redesigned most panels
    - redundancy analysis for Reliability panel    
  Reliability
    - improved subsystem: Reliability
    - support arbitrary third party modules
    - components are now disabled when they fail
    - two types of failures: malfunctions (can be repaired) and critical failures (can't be repaired)
    - safemode: there is a chance of remote repairs for unmanned vessels
    - components can be assigned to redundancy groups
    - an optional redundancy incentive is provided: when a component fail, all others in the same redundancy group delay their next failure
    - removed 'manufacturing quality'
    - can select quality per-component in the vab, high quality means higher cost and/or mass but longer MTBF    
  Signal
    - improved: focus on data transmission rates and differences between low-gain and high-gain antennas    
    - high-gain antennas: can communicate only with DSN
    - low-gain antennas: can communicate with DSN and with other vessels
    - low-gain antennas: can be flagged as 'relay' to receive data from other vessels
    - can choose what level of control to lose without a connection:
      . 'none' (lose all control),
      . 'limited' (same as CommNet limited control) and
      . 'full' (only disable data transmission)
    - easy parameters for antenna definitions
    - simple data rate attenuation model
    - render data transmission particles during data transmission
    - disable CommNet automatically when enabled
    - connection status is obtained by CommNet or RemoteTech when signal is disabled
    - new signal panel in vessel info window, show data rates, destination and file being transmitted    
  Science
    - new subsystem: Science, improve on data storage, transmission and analysis
    - transmit data over time, even in background
    - analyze data over time, even in background
    - the background data transmission work with Signal, CommNet or RemoteTech.
    - new module: HardDrive, replace stock data container, can flag files for transmission and lab analysis
    - new module: Laboratory, can analyze samples and produce transmissible data    
    - work with all science experiment modules, both stock and third-party, by hijacking the science result dialog
    - data storage: can store multiple results of same experiment type, can transfer to other parts without requiring EVA
    - data storage: can still be stored on EVA kerbals, and EVA kerbals can take/store data from/to pods
    - data UI: show files and samples per-vessel, can flag for transmission or analysis, can delete files or samples
    - properly credit the science over time
    - do not break science collection contracts       
  Automation
    - removed the Console and command interpreter    
    - new scripting system: not text-based anymore
    - new component control and script editing UI
    - script editor UI highlight parts for ease of use    
  Misc
    - ported to KSP 1.2.1    
    - consistent part naming scheme
    - rebalanced mass/cost of all parts
    - improved part descriptions
    - do not change stock EC producers/consumers anymore
    - adapted all support patches, removed the ones not necessary anymore    
    - shaders are loaded from asset bundle
    - removed workarounds for old SCANsat versions
    - some Settings added, others removed
    - action group support for all modules
    - properly support multiple modules of the same type in the same part
    - optimized how animations in modules are managed
    - can optionally use the stock message system instead of our own
    - can optionally simulate the effect of tracking pivots on solar panels orientability
    - removed helmet handling for EVA kerbals
    - doesn't require CRP anymore, but it will still work along it
    - improved how crew requirements are specified in modules
    - show limited body info window when Sun is selected, instead of nothing
    - new contract: analyze sample in space
    - new contract: cross the heliopause
    - rebalanced ec consumers/producers    
    - show tooltips in vessel info
    - use common style for all part info tooltips    
    - AtomicAge engines emit radiation (ThePsion5)  
    - more love for VenStockRevamp patch (YaarPodshipnik)        
  Profile: 'Default'
    - rewritten from scratch
    - balanced consumption rates from real data
    - balanced container capacity from real data
    - water
    - co2 poisoning
    - pressurization: influence quality of life
    - configurable ECLSS in pods: scrubber, water recycler, pressure control, waste processing
    - configurable supply containers: can store Food, Water, Waste
    - configurable pressurized tanks: can store Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Ammonia
    - greenhouse: require Ammonia and Water, produce Oxygen and WasteWater as by-product, need to be pressurized, has radiation threshold    
    - stock ISRU plants can be configured with one among a set of reality-inspired chemical processes
    - stock drills can be configured with a specific resource harvester
    - stock atmo experiment is also used as configurable atmospheric harvester
    - stock fuel cells act like real fuel cells
    - new part: Chemical Plant, can execute reality-inspired chemical processes, unlocked early in the tech tree    
  Profile: 'Classic'
    - this profile mimick the old default profile, without the new stuff  
  Profile: 'None'
    - choose this if you want to play with third-party life support mods
  Bugs fixed
    - fix: nasty problem with interaction between cache and analytical sunlight estimation        
    - fix: radiation body definitions were not loaded in some cases    
    - fix: planner, stock laboratory EC consumption wasn't considered
    - fix: planner, solar panel flux estimation was considering atmo factor even in space
    - fix: planner, correctly skip disabled modules    
    - fix: spurious signal loss message when undocking    
    - fix: maintain notes and scripts even after docking/undocking    
    - fix: highlighting of malfunction components in pods
    - fix: in monitor UI signal icon, show all relays in the chain
    - fix: bug with killing eva kerbals while iterating the list of crew    
    - fix: exception when loading dead eva kerbals
    - fix: module index mismatch when loading dead eva kerbals

 

[SavageAngel]

You would release the update during my finals week. So much for studying.

Edited December 6, 2016 by SavageAngel

[The-Doctor]

3 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

At last.

This is an experimental version, potentially unstable and unbalanced.
Report any undesired behaviour you encounter. 

Version: v1.1.5-pre1
Require: KSP 1.2.1, ModuleManager 2.7.5
Download: github

 

 

 

Changelog:

  Reveal hidden contents

  * this is a summary of the changes  
  Rule framework
    - multiple profiles can cohexist in the same installation, only one is enabled from user settings
    - Process: vessel-wide resource consumer/producers driven by modifiers        
    - split Supply out of Rule, for additional flexibility
    - can use resource amount as a modifier
    - many new modifiers, to leverage the information provided by habitat
  Features framework
    - user specified features are set by a flag in settings
    - other features are detected automatically from the modifiers used in the active profile    
    - inject MM patches during loading screen, before MM is executed
    - third parties can check for specific features or profiles by using NEEDS[]
    - parts are enabled/disabled automatically depending on features used    
  Resource cache
    - new 'exact, order-agnostic' algorithm for consumption/production chains at arbitrary timesteps
    - consider interval-based outputs in depletion estimates    
  Configure
    - new module Configure: can select between setups in the VAB or in flight
    - setups can specify resources and/or modules
    - setups can include extra cost and mass
    - setups can be unlocked with technologies
    - configuration UI, that show info on modules and resources for a setup    
  Habitat
    - new module Habitat: replace CLS internal spaces
    - used to calculate internal volume in m^3, and surface in m^2    
    - can be disabled/enabled even in flight to configure the internal space as required
    - support inflatable habitats
    - can be pressurized/depressurized
    - can keep track of level of CO2 in the internal atmosphere
    - can be added to parts with no crew capacity
  Greenhouse
    - improved module: Greenhouse
    - lamps intensity is determined automatically, and is expressed in W/m^2
    - can have radiation and pressure thresholds for growth
    - can require an arbitrary set of input resources
    - can produce an arbitrary set of by-product resources
    - growth will degenerate if lighting/radiation/pressure conditions aren't met      
  ISRU
    - planetary resource definitions based on real data
    - new module Harvester: for crustal/atmospheric resource extraction, use abundance/pressure thresholds    
  Wet workshops
    - some stock tanks can now be configured as either fuel tanks or habitats, even in flight    
  QualityOfLife
    - new module Comfort: replace Entertainment and provide a specific bonus, added to some stock parts
    - modified module GravityRing: now provide firm-ground bonus
    - living space is calculated from volume per-capita    
  Radiation
    - shielding required is now determined by habitat surface, and map to millimeters of Pb
    - rtg emit a small amount of ratiation
  Planner
    - single page layout, with panel selection
    - show consumers/producers of a resource in tooltip
    - improved/redesigned most panels
    - redundancy analysis for Reliability panel    
  Reliability
    - improved subsystem: Reliability
    - support arbitrary third party modules
    - components are now disabled when they fail
    - two types of failures: malfunctions (can be repaired) and critical failures (can't be repaired)
    - safemode: there is a chance of remote repairs for unmanned vessels
    - components can be assigned to redundancy groups
    - an optional redundancy incentive is provided: when a component fail, all others in the same redundancy group delay their next failure
    - removed 'manufacturing quality'
    - can select quality per-component in the vab, high quality means higher cost and/or mass but longer MTBF    
  Signal
    - improved: focus on data transmission rates and differences between low-gain and high-gain antennas    
    - high-gain antennas: can communicate only with DSN
    - low-gain antennas: can communicate with DSN and with other vessels
    - low-gain antennas: can be flagged as 'relay' to receive data from other vessels
    - can choose what level of control to lose without a connection:
      . 'none' (lose all control),
      . 'limited' (same as CommNet limited control) and
      . 'full' (only disable data transmission)
    - easy parameters for antenna definitions
    - simple data rate attenuation model
    - render data transmission particles during data transmission
    - disable CommNet automatically when enabled
    - connection status is obtained by CommNet or RemoteTech when signal is disabled
    - new signal panel in vessel info window, show data rates, destination and file being transmitted    
  Science
    - new subsystem: Science, improve on data storage, transmission and analysis
    - transmit data over time, even in background
    - analyze data over time, even in background
    - the background data transmission work with Signal, CommNet or RemoteTech.
    - new module: HardDrive, replace stock data container, can flag files for transmission and lab analysis
    - new module: Laboratory, can analyze samples and produce transmissible data    
    - work with all science experiment modules, both stock and third-party, by hijacking the science result dialog
    - data storage: can store multiple results of same experiment type, can transfer to other parts without requiring EVA
    - data storage: can still be stored on EVA kerbals, and EVA kerbals can take/store data from/to pods
    - data UI: show files and samples per-vessel, can flag for transmission or analysis, can delete files or samples
    - properly credit the science over time
    - do not break science collection contracts       
  Automation
    - removed the Console and command interpreter    
    - new scripting system: not text-based anymore
    - new component control and script editing UI
    - script editor UI highlight parts for ease of use    
  Misc
    - ported to KSP 1.2.1    
    - consistent part naming scheme
    - rebalanced mass/cost of all parts
    - improved part descriptions
    - do not change stock EC producers/consumers anymore
    - adapted all support patches, removed the ones not necessary anymore    
    - shaders are loaded from asset bundle
    - removed workarounds for old SCANsat versions
    - some Settings added, others removed
    - action group support for all modules
    - properly support multiple modules of the same type in the same part
    - optimized how animations in modules are managed
    - can optionally use the stock message system instead of our own
    - can optionally simulate the effect of tracking pivots on solar panels orientability
    - removed helmet handling for EVA kerbals
    - doesn't require CRP anymore, but it will still work along it
    - improved how crew requirements are specified in modules
    - show limited body info window when Sun is selected, instead of nothing
    - new contract: analyze sample in space
    - new contract: cross the heliopause
    - rebalanced ec consumers/producers    
    - show tooltips in vessel info
    - use common style for all part info tooltips    
    - AtomicAge engines emit radiation (ThePsion5)  
    - more love for VenStockRevamp patch (YaarPodshipnik)        
  Profile: 'Default'
    - rewritten from scratch
    - balanced consumption rates from real data
    - balanced container capacity from real data
    - water
    - co2 poisoning
    - pressurization: influence quality of life
    - configurable ECLSS in pods: scrubber, water recycler, pressure control, waste processing
    - configurable supply containers: can store Food, Water, Waste
    - configurable pressurized tanks: can store Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Ammonia
    - greenhouse: require Ammonia and Water, produce Oxygen and WasteWater as by-product, need to be pressurized, has radiation threshold    
    - stock ISRU plants can be configured with one among a set of reality-inspired chemical processes
    - stock drills can be configured with a specific resource harvester
    - stock atmo experiment is also used as configurable atmospheric harvester
    - stock fuel cells act like real fuel cells
    - new part: Chemical Plant, can execute reality-inspired chemical processes, unlocked early in the tech tree    
  Profile: 'Classic'
    - this profile mimick the old default profile, without the new stuff  
  Profile: 'None'
    - choose this if you want to play with third-party life support mods
  Bugs fixed
    - fix: nasty problem with interaction between cache and analytical sunlight estimation        
    - fix: radiation body definitions were not loaded in some cases    
    - fix: planner, stock laboratory EC consumption wasn't considered
    - fix: planner, solar panel flux estimation was considering atmo factor even in space
    - fix: planner, correctly skip disabled modules    
    - fix: spurious signal loss message when undocking    
    - fix: maintain notes and scripts even after docking/undocking    
    - fix: highlighting of malfunction components in pods
    - fix: in monitor UI signal icon, show all relays in the chain
    - fix: bug with killing eva kerbals while iterating the list of crew    
    - fix: exception when loading dead eva kerbals
    - fix: module index mismatch when loading dead eva kerbals

 

AWESOME!! Quick questions, 1) will it be on ckan? 2) does it get rid of the experimental storage unit?

[theJesuit]

5 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

This is an experimental version, potentially unstable and unbalanced.
Report any undesired behaviour you encounter. 

 

 

 

So, you'll want the logs?  I have reasonably heavy modded carrer, and the pre-release won't allow the save to load - it hangs, effectively crashing the game.  I have to Alt-F4 out of it.  This is undesired, but did you expect it?

I am looking forward to the full release!

Edit - 

Starting a new career, all is going well, except that there is obviously a conflict with the mod 'Stock No Contracts'.  I tend to play with this and not have rescues/recovery, part testing or surveying.

Peace.

Edited December 6, 2016 by theJesuit

[Peder]

Thank you for an amazing mod..;-)

I tested the new pre release and have a few bugs..:

- I am using standard antennas from stock ksp.

1). Kerbnet in top left corner of the screen dissaper so i cannot see connection type ( dont know if this is intentional.

2). When loading my savegame then all antennas on my sattelites in space is turned "off".   = all OLD propes/sattelites that is already in space without kerbals do not work.
Kerbalism show when i load the game that there are "no antenna" on the sattelites and no signal ( this is wrong ) ( in the kerbalism overview page that pop up if you press kerbalism icon at the space center. ).

3). When i complete a new contract with a new sattelite that i send into orbit after kerbalism was installed then even though the mission is a success and write this, then the mission do not end and I do not get paid.. It just show two green marks and all mission requirments are completed but contract never stop... ( dont know if this is a ksp bug or related to kerbalism ). 
( mission put sattelite with antenna who can generate power in polar orbit arround mum.   I did this also in the right direction and when in possition I get two green markers and the orbit path dissaper like mission complete ).

4). I can see that kerbnet was turned off in setting, dont know if this is kerbalism who did this.. but even when i turn it on, then I do not see the signal status in top left corner.
But no matter what if kerbnet is on/off then I was able to control my ships, but did not have any effect on the antenna problem. I could see connections on the world map with the green lines.

5). If i build a new rocket with stock antennas then I can see signals on the world map, and I can control propes and so on... BUT savegame ships made before kerbalism was installed do not work.
I even tried to remove kerbalism and extend the antennas on my sattelites, but when i install kerbalism again, then the antennas are turned off = i cannot control my "old" ships/sattelites.

All mods are up to date..:

KSP: 1.2.1 (Win64) - Unity: 5.4.0p4 - OS: Windows 10  (10.0.0) 64bit
AtmosphereAutopilot - 1.5.8
Chatterer - 0.9.91.1586
Community Resource Pack - 0.6.3
RasterPropMonitor - 0.28
KAS - 0.6
Kerbal Engineer Redux - 1.1.2.8
KIS - 1.3.1
KSP-AVC Plugin - 1.1.6.2
Docking Port Alignment Indicator - 6.5.1
Final Frontier - 1.2.5.2906
SCANsat - 1.1.6.11
Kerbal Alarm Clock - 3.8

Module manager 2.7.5

Edited December 6, 2016 by Peder

[Gotmachine]

Yay, great news !

Starting a new career now to playtest. A few issues / remarks about the data/science system :

• There is an issue when you run the same experiment twice for the same situation/biome, you get the data twice and if you hit the "remove" button, all the data get removed. You have no way to manage/remove an instance of the experiment and I'm not sure how transmiting the data is managed at this point.
• Also an issue : when running multiple experiments in a row, if you click the "Keep experiment" button, all "opened" experiments are kept, not only the one in front. So you don't get a chance to keep/discard the other.
• I don't know if this is possible (I get the feeling that the "stock experiment" is lost at this point ?), but it would be nice if in the data panel, clicking on the experiment bring the stock experiment report.
• Also, I would personally prefer the situation/body/biome info as an undertext or another column. The tooltip method gets quickly annoying since you usually have a load of the same experiment in different situations onboard.

@Peder Need confirmation from ShotgunNinja, but I'm pretty sure that using Kerbalism with an existing save (a 1.2 non kerbalism save or even 1.1 kerbalism save) is unsupported and won't work correctly (Maybe this should be mentioned in the OP)

[Drew Kerman]

dat change log tho look forward to checking this out when I finally move up to v1.2

[ShotgunNinja]

6 hours ago, theJesuit said:

So, you'll want the logs?  I have reasonably heavy modded carrer, and the pre-release won't allow the save to load - it hangs, effectively crashing the game.  I have to Alt-F4 out of it.  This is undesired, but did you expect it?

In any case, the mod shouldn't CTD. So why not, send me the log.
I used undesired word, instead of unexpected, to include balance issues too.

 

6 hours ago, theJesuit said:

there is obviously a conflict with the mod 'Stock No Contracts'.

Can you expand on this?

 

2 hours ago, Peder said:

[1] Kerbnet in top left corner of the screen dissaper so i cannot see connection type ( dont know if this is intentional

Intentional. When Signal is enabled, CommNet get disabled automatically (what you call Kerbnet here...)

 

2 hours ago, Peder said:

[2] When loading my savegame then all antennas on my sattelites in space is turned "off".   = all OLD propes/sattelites that is already in space without kerbals do not work.
Kerbalism show when i load the game that there are "no antenna" on the sattelites and no signal ( this is wrong ) ( in the kerbalism overview page that pop up if you press kerbalism icon at the space center. ).

Antennas require to be extended in new Signal system, but this behaviour can be disabled in settings. I suggest you go in Settings.cfg and set 'ExtendedAntenna = false'.

 

2 hours ago, Peder said:

[3] When i complete a new contract with a new sattelite that i send into orbit after kerbalism was installed then even though the mission is a success and write this, then the mission do not end and I do not get paid.. It just show two green marks and all mission requirments are completed but contract never stop... ( dont know if this is a ksp bug or related to kerbalism ).

This is probably related to the antenna module changing. Anyway, this is a complex mod and adding it to an existing savegame may have complex consequences.

 

2 hours ago, Peder said:

[4] I can see that kerbnet was turned off in setting, dont know if this is kerbalism who did this.. but even when i turn it on, then I do not see the signal status in top left corner.
But no matter what if kerbnet is on/off then I was able to control my ships, but did not have any effect on the antenna problem. I could see connections on the world map with the green lines.

Intentional: CommNet (what you are calling KerbNet here...) is not only disabled automatically when Signal is on, it is also constantly re-disabled. So if you go in game settings and turn it on, I disable it automatically as soon as you change scene. The connection lines you see are from Signal (you may notice the proper antialiasing).

 

2 hours ago, Peder said:

[5] If i build a new rocket with stock antennas then I can see signals on the world map, and I can control propes and so on... BUT savegame ships made before kerbalism was installed do not work.
I even tried to remove kerbalism and extend the antennas on my sattelites, but when i install kerbalism again, then the antennas are turned off = i cannot control my "old" ships/sattelites.

This is the same problem as [2]. To elaborate on that: when you add this mod to an existing savegame, the old 'extended' state disappear because I'm using a different module to handle the antennas. So please see the answer to [2].

 

2 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

• There is an issue when you run the same experiment twice for the same situation/biome, you get the data twice and if you hit the "remove" button, all the data get removed. You have no way to manage/remove an instance of the experiment and I'm not sure how transmiting the data is managed at this point.

When you collect same experiment/biome/situation combination, more data is added to the same file. But when you transmit/recover it you do not get more science points credited. When you click the remove icon, you are simply deleting that file. Transmitting data is as simple as flagging a file for transmission, clicking on the '>>' icon next to it.

 

2 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

• Also an issue : when running multiple experiments in a row, if you click the "Keep experiment" button, all "opened" experiments are kept, not only the one in front. So you don't get a chance to keep/discard the other.

I'll check this.

 

2 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

I don't know if this is possible (I get the feeling that the "stock experiment" is lost at this point ?), but it would be nice if in the data panel, clicking on the experiment bring the stock experiment report.

You are right on the feeling. I am using the 'science report window' only to support stock/other mods experiment parts. But as soon as you click 'keep' or 'transmit' in that window, the collected science is then stored in my system. So long stock experiment report, you will (not) be missed.

 

2 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

• Also, I would personally prefer the situation/body/biome info as an undertext or another column. The tooltip method gets quickly annoying since you usually have a load of the same experiment in different situations onboard.

I agree with this, will try to make the situation/body/biome more visible.

[APlayer]

Sir, you made me worry how much I can be excited for KSP.

Thanks a lot for the release! Give me half an hour for school stuff and I'll be busy testing, and kraken help the one who dares to disturb me during that highly-focused process! 

[nightstalker101s]

Thank you ShotgunNinja for the quick response to the issues listed by everyone. My confidence has comoletely been restored before the end of my work day. My plan is to start a new career mode though to avoid adaptation issues. Thanks for all the hard work! (I suck at C# and realize the long hour spent making fine tuned adjustments to make your concepts a reality.)

Edited December 6, 2016 by nightstalker101s

[Gotmachine]

5 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

When you collect same experiment/biome/situation combination, more data is added to the same file. But when you transmit/recover it you do not get more science points credited. When you click the remove icon, you are simply deleting that file. Transmitting data is as simple as flagging a file for transmission, clicking on the '>>' icon next to it.

But there still the issue that you transmit twice (or more) the normal amount of data for no reason, it would be more consistent and if an already stored experiment can't be stored again, with a "experiment x already stored, deleting data" message, like the stock behaviour.

Other things :

• The "fuel flow" mode for the Kerbalism resources seems to be set to "one tank after another" which is a bit annoying because of uneven mass distribution when using radial setups. Also a bit tricky in early career because it tends to use the pod resources first. Discovered that using a fuel cell that sucked dry the oxygen in my pod and leaving plenty in the radial tanks I was forced to jettison during reentry, leading to Jeb dying 1 minute before his pod touched the ground (Note that you can't transfer resources until you have the level 2 science complex, and yes I know, I could have locked the pod resources, I did so for EC but not for the other resources).
• In the planner, if you have no stored resources or if they are locked, the "consumption" field become "none" even there is an active consumer. I see the logic behind this but it is a bit misleading.
• I experienced a strange issue in the VAB : long 3-5 sec lag spikes / freezes when switching symmetry amount using the hotkey with a radial resource tank "in hand" and hovering on the vessel. This doesn't happen every single time but still seems a pretty consistent behaviour. This doesn't happen when I change the symmetry amount when NOT hovering over the vessel. Nothing in the logs.

I did a playtrough until early-middle career progression (landed on the Mun, about to finish my classic "Minmus biome science farming" mission), overall the balance seems right, maybe data transmission is a bit too slow (but I need to see what happen further / with better antennas). The added resources and processes are well balanced, integrated together and give a realistic feel, and you did a wonderful job with the planner and the UI to help understand and calculate things right. But still, I find myself doing too much resource consumption/production planning and not enough craft building and flying, so I think I will switch to the "classic" profile soon. The default one just don't feel "Kerbal" enough to me, too real things, too much precision, not enough eyeballing

Edited December 6, 2016 by Gotmachine

[ShotgunNinja]

21 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

But there still the issue that you transmit twice (or more) the normal amount of data for no reason, it would be more consistent and if an already stored experiment can't be stored again, with a "experiment x already stored, deleting data" message, like the stock behaviour

I guess I could clamp the file size. Make sense actually.

 

22 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

The "fuel flow" mode for the Kerbalism resources seems to be set to "one tank after another" which is a bit annoying because of uneven mass distribution when using radial setups. Also a bit tricky in early career because it tends to use the pod resources first. Discovered that using a fuel cell that sucked dry the oxygen in my pod and leaving plenty in the radial tanks I was forced to jettison during reentry, leading to Jeb dying 1 minute before his pod touched the ground (Note that you can't transfer resources until you have the level 2 science complex, and yes I know, I could have locked the pod resources, I did so for EC but not for the other resources).

This was always like that. When resources are consumed in background, effectively I am using the equivalent of ALL_VESSEL. The pod is often the first part on the list so it get consumed first. Maybe I could try to use the equivalent of ALL_VESSEL_BALANCED and see how it goes. The performance cost should be low enough.

 

24 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

• In the planner, if you have no stored resources or if they are locked, the "consumption" field become "none" even there is an active consumer. I see the logic behind this but it is a bit misleading.

I am doing a full simulation of the resources in the planner, and that deal with a lot of issues and corner cases automatically. However this has the drawback you noticed. It can't detect that a resource was consumed because there was none to consume.

 

26 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

I experienced a strange issue in the VAB : long 3-5 sec lag spikes / freezes when switching symmetry amount using the hotkey with a radial resource tank "in hand" and hovering on the vessel. This doesn't happen every single time but still seems a pretty consistent behaviour. This doesn't happen when I change the symmetry amount when NOT hovering over the vessel. Nothing in the logs.

I am dealing with symmetry for the Configure module (that is used in the radial containers)... so there may be some weird things going on there. I'll take a look.

 

28 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

I did a playtrough until early-middle career progression (landed on the Mun, about to finish my classic "Minmus biome science farming" mission), overall the balance seems right. The added resources and processes are well balanced, integrated together and give a realistic feel, and you did a wonderful job with the planner and the UI to help understand and calculate things right. But still, I find myself doing too much resource consumption/production planning and not enough craft building and flying, so I think I will switch to the "classic" profile soon. The default one just don't feel "Kerbal" enough to me, too real things, too much precision, not enough eyeballing

Thanks for the feedback.

[SavageAngel]

I noticed two small issues.

1. When you change a part's quality it doesn't update the cost counter in bottom left of screen until you take the part off and reattach it. I think it still initially adjust the cost you just cant see it.

2. The inner and outer belts and the magnetopause are not rendering when turned to show. The only mods I have installed are Kerbalism, MM, and Scatterer. Which might be causing the problem if no one else is experiencing it.

Edit: V1.2.1 with new save

Edited December 6, 2016 by SavageAngel

[The-Doctor]

I've tested it with galileo's, whenever I choose to increase the number of parts, like, having the oxygen parts and clicking it to go more than 4x around a part, it causes the game to freeze. Then there's the co2 thing, even with the part to take in co2 the kerbals keep dying. I wonder, is that suppose to be default or meant to only be enabled with realism overhaul? Idk how I feel about the whole nitrogen, ammonia, co2 stuff, makes the life support more complex than I'm used to. Btw, why was the stock science container removed and is there a way to get it back? @ShotgunNinja

@ShotgunNinja also, with Kerbalism, Remotetech and Galileo's all installed, Remotetech's mission control is all the way on another planet

[ShotgunNinja]

@SavageAngel 

51 minutes ago, SavageAngel said:

When you change a part's quality it doesn't update the cost counter in bottom left of screen until you take the part off and reattach it. I think it still initially adjust the cost you just cant see it.

Unfortunately that is a stock issue. A module can add mass/cost, but for some reasons the VAB display is only updated on some circumstances. But you are right, the cost is applied even if you don't see the updated one.

 

52 minutes ago, SavageAngel said:

The inner and outer belts and the magnetopause are not rendering when turned to show. The only mods I have installed are Kerbalism, MM, and Scatterer. Which might be causing the problem if no one else is experiencing it.

I see them... could be Scatterer I don't know. Could you try without it and letting me know?

 

5 minutes ago, The-Doctor said:

whenever I choose to increase the number of parts, like, having the oxygen parts and clicking it to go more than 4x around a part, it causes the game to freeze

I'm looking into it.

 

6 minutes ago, The-Doctor said:

Then there's the co2 thing, even with the part to take in co2 the kerbals keep dying. I wonder, is that suppose to be default or meant to only be enabled with realism overhaul?

Can you be more clear on the issue? You need a scrubber enabled at all times to avoid co2 poisoning, that's all. There is zero interaction with Realism Overhaul in this mod.

 

8 minutes ago, The-Doctor said:

why was the stock science container removed and is there a way to get it back

It is removed because it has no reason to exist when Science is enabled, its original functionality is now available in all parts that can store data (like all pods or probe cores). If you want it back, you can set Science to false in settings.

[SavageAngel]

25 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

 

I see them... could be Scatterer I don't know. Could you try without it and letting me know?

Ya, had to go to class before I could test without it. Will try it without scatterer later and let you know.

[The-Doctor]

26 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@SavageAngel 

Unfortunately that is a stock issue. A module can add mass/cost, but for some reasons the VAB display is only updated on some circumstances. But you are right, the cost is applied even if you don't see the updated one.

 

I see them... could be Scatterer I don't know. Could you try without it and letting me know?

 

I'm looking into it.

 

Can you be more clear on the issue? You need a scrubber enabled at all times to avoid co2 poisoning, that's all. There is zero interaction with Realism Overhaul in this mod.

 

It is removed because it has no reason to exist when Science is enabled, its original functionality is now available in all parts that can store data (like all pods or probe cores). If you want it back, you can set Science to false in settings.

can you link me to the description of science and what it does? Also, please check my edited post again, I talked about remotetech and the issue I found with it