[1.3.0] Kerbalism v1.2.9

[raxo2222]

It seems like waste atmosphere is created waaay too fast. When I stop scrubbers in tiniest of stock crewed capsules CO2 percentage reaches 100% in less than minute.

Also there should something happen, if atmospheric pressure falls below lets say 40 kPa.

Shouldn't kerbals simply quickly roast while being outside in eva suits, when ambient temp is over 1000k regardless of electric charge?

 

[Gotmachine]

11 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

It seems like waste atmosphere is created waaay too fast. When I stop scrubbers in tiniest of stock crewed capsules CO2 percentage reaches 100% in less than minute.

I agree, the margin is super thin on that one.

14 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Also there should something happen, if atmospheric pressure falls below lets say 40 kPa.

This affects the stress factor. What happens is that kerbals need to put their EVA suits, leading to a huge decrease in quality of life.

25 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Shouldn't kerbals simply quickly roast while being outside in eva suits, when ambient temp is over 1000k regardless of electric charge?

Just tested, you have about 5 minutes of EVA EC autonomy at 1000K (15 minutes @ ~300K). You can increase the climatization EC consumption, but I suspect this will have the side effect of making reentries and aerobrakings too hard. Or perhaps the EVA suit "volume constant" could be increased a bit so more EC is needed.

[raxo2222]

8 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

Just tested, you have about 5 minutes of EVA EC autonomy at 1000K (15 minutes @ ~300K). You can increase the climatization EC consumption, but I suspect this will have the side effect of making reentries and aerobrakings too hard. Or perhaps the EVA suit "volume constant" could be increased a bit so more EC is needed.

I meant you should be fried in less than minute without EC during EVA, when ambient temperature is around 1000 K.

[ShotgunNinja]

6 hours ago, ThRodrigues said:

I tested with the file 'None' and 'RealismNoLS' ...

All the extra profiles in the OP were made for the version you find in the OP, not the experimental one.

 

6 hours ago, ThRodrigues said:

I could see that both remove other Functions like Stress, Habitat, Radiation among other related things and that's not what I wanted

'None' is an empty profile, it remove everything. You can create your own profile, look at both Default.cfg and Classic.cfg to see how it is done. Some documentation is coming in a few days.

 

6 hours ago, ThRodrigues said:

Using the full mod I had a doubt, I realized that it is added to any vessel storage of oxygen, water, food, nitrogen and shielding, but had no carbon dioxide and waste, this does not make recycling impossible by converters or is not Even needed?

The Scrubber sequester CO2 from the internal atmosphere. If then there is no storage for it, it is dumped. You can configure the pressurized tanks to store it. Similar thing for Waste.

 

6 hours ago, BrutalRIP said:

An issue I've seen though I'm not sure it's from this mod is when launching with mechjeb if I have say a goo container on a lower stage and run the experiment a warning sign comes up saying it will become inoperable (think is a message from kerbalism) well if mechjeb stages and drops the goo container before I press an option then I cannot get rid of the message or use any right click option on my ship ie mission over revert to launch...

Mmm okay. I'll see what I can do.

 

5 hours ago, nightstalker101s said:

I have Strategia and SEP(maybe some more) which adjust or change some science. I will select Local Science from Strategia, escape the atmosphere, collect some science, and come back to 2,000 science 5 minutes after starting the game. I dont know how to figure out which mod is doing what. I was hoping you might know how to find out which mod is interacting eith kerbalism and doing whatever triggers that action. Also I have the gameplay settings on career mode and hard.

See answer to @Gotmachine below.

 

5 hours ago, nightstalker101s said:

Side note, is it possible to report to [X]Science that research has already been completed? It will track next mission that X, Y, and Z are complete, but on the same mission it doesnt register. I end up clicking a few experiments multiple times due to uncertainty. [I just realized this question was already posed, but not sure what the proper etiquette is for questions so Im deciding to leave it here]

That is because those 'science alert' mods scan the vessel for stock ScienceData, to remove the experiments you did already (but still have not recovered/transmitted). With kerbalism Science, there is no ScienceData on the vessel, so these mods will never detect that you already have the experiment results on the vessel. There is no fix for this. If the alerts are important to you, maybe it is worth to just set Science to false.

 

4 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

I also confirm the issue with strategia, the bonuses from the "local science" strategies are out of control. To expand on the context, those are strategy bonus (ranging from 20 to 150 %) applied to science yelds of experiments made in the KSC biomes (level 1) and at kerbin (level 2-3), they are applied upon craft recovery. Doing a bit of testing, I noted that the temperature scan is affected hugely (82.4 science point for a non-bonus yeld of 2.4, should have been 2.9 (+20%)) but the crew report not so much (3.0 science point for a non-bonus yeld of 1.8, should have been 2.2 (+20%)). Transmitting or recovering the data yeld the same results.

Thanks for the detailed info. I am going to guess that the bigger data sizes of the experiments are making Strategia do the wrong things. But they shouldn't: what I'm doing with the data is simply to scale its size using the stock 'dataScale' property.

 

4 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

Situation : orbit around the mun with a crewed vessel carrying 3 small lander probes. I have some data onboard (samples and transmissible data). I detach one of the probes to do a landing, and do a telemetry with it (so I have some data on the probe). So far so good, I begin my descent burn. If I switch between each ship with the hotkey, no problem. Focused on the probe, as soon as the main ship gets out of the physics bubble (the switch hotkey is disabled and I use the map view switching) the data on the main ship disappear. If I reload the save, do my burn with the probe, switch to the main vessel, wait for the probe to get out of physics bubble, switch to the probe via the map view, the data is now lost on the probe.

I may have a clue why this is happening. And thanks again for the detailed report, these are useful.

 

3 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

It seems like waste atmosphere is created waaay too fast. When I stop scrubbers in tiniest of stock crewed capsules CO2 percentage reaches 100% in less than minute

I was surprised too, but that is based on real data. A man breathing in a 1.5m^3 volume will cause the CO2 level in that volume to rise with the speed you see in game.

Compare with how slow it goes up in a 100m^3 volume (eg: the big orange tank as a wet workshop).

 

3 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

Also there should something happen, if atmospheric pressure falls below lets say 40 kPa.

It does. As soon as it is below 91 kPa (or something like that, don't remember the exact value) the crew suit up, diapers included.

[aluc24]

@ShotgunNinja , could you please tell me if there is a way to disable water requirement in Realism profile (along with filtering system and water containers), while leaving everything else the same and balanced? Water alone isn't bad, but along with filtration, it becomes just a bit too complicated to plan flights than I'd like. Or maybe just disable water filters as a resource, and rather make them akin to scrubbers?

[raxo2222]

1 hour ago, ShotgunNinja said:

I was surprised too, but that is based on real data. A man breathing in a 1.5m^3 volume will cause the CO2 level in that volume to rise with the speed you see in game.

 

So oxygen level goes from 21% to 0% of total atmospheric volume in less than minute in tiniest capsule?

I interpret 100% co2 level as effectively whole oxygen in atmosphere was used up.

So minutes later we have 21% co2 79% nitrogen atmosphere it seems.

Even if there is only air in lungs - lets say you are holding breath for minute - you don't fell sudden urge to breathe, that happens when co2 is at few percent of total air concentration.

Edited December 7, 2016 by raxo2222

[ShotgunNinja]

@raxo2222 Well I had to make some simplifications in the internal atmosphere simulation:

• Each habitat has a capacity of WasteAtmosphere (determined by its volume, and the density of CO2 at STP)
• Kerbals consume Oxygen directly from the oxygen tanks (eg: it is not stored in the internal atmosphere)
• Kerbals however produce WasteAtmosphere (at a realistic rate, for overall mass conservation)
• at any moment the co2 level is the amount of WasteAtmosphere, divided by the WasteAtmosphere capacity

[bpilgrim]

12 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@raxo2222 Well I had to make some simplifications in the internal atmosphere simulation:

• Each habitat has a capacity of WasteAtmosphere (determined by its volume, and the density of CO2 at STP)
• Kerbals consume Oxygen directly from the oxygen tanks (eg: it is not stored in the internal atmosphere)
• Kerbals however produce WasteAtmosphere (at a realistic rate, for overall mass conservation)
• at any moment the co2 level is the amount of WasteAtmosphere, divided by the WasteAtmosphere capacity

Ah, that last point I think is where the confusion lies. C02 level is not the actual percent of the atmosphere; it is how much of the waste storage capacity is used up, and the small capsule has very little capacity. That makes more sense to me.

I recall from the Apollo 13 flight that they were worried when atmospheric C02 reached 15%, so I was confused at the values I was seeing.

[ShotgunNinja]

39 minutes ago, bpilgrim said:

C02 level is not the actual percent of the atmosphere; it is how much of the waste storage capacity is used up

Yes, but the latter was meant to reproduce the former. And in doing so, working when the habitat is not pressurized (so the crew is suited, but you still need to scrub the CO2 they produce).

I also tried a more complex internal atmosphere model before this one: Kerbals were breathing Atmosphere directly, that was composed of Oxygen and Nitrogen (the CO2 was on another 'layer' like now). This worked, and was a bit more realistic. But it had some issues: (1) it was not intuitive for the player how the Oxygen estimate was separed from the Atmosphere and (2) kerbals were not able to breath inside a non-pressurized vessel (while in reality they would suit up).

(1) I tried to solve it by improving the algorithms that deal with resources (and those efforts ended up in the new order-less chain algorithm)

(2) could not be solved without some inelegant hacks in the rule system (to allow kerbals to consume either Atmosphere or Oxygen), and the efforts here evolved in the current concept that pressurization only influence quality of life (that make sense actually).

 

An idea I had, and didn't really explore, was to simulate the Kerbals suits directly, even when they are inside a vessel.

[AVaughan]

I was testing playing Kerbalism 1.1.5-pre1 in a clean 1.2.2 KSP install last night.  (I know that 1.1.5-pre1 was built for 1.2.1, but I wanted to try 1.2.2 ).  This is my first time playing with this mod and I really like a lot of what you have done.

Two minor issues, (which could easily be stock KSP bugs I haven't noticed before) and one issue which looks like a Kerbalism bug. 

First the minor issues. Twice kerbals on eva seemed stuck in ragdoll mode, even whilst maneuvering with the suit jetpack.  (And they use tons of mono-propellant as they flop around almost uncontrollably).

Secondly, under some circumstances the game seems to use the command pod's EC before starting on the other batteries available.  This can be a problem if you decouple the command pod for re-entry and discover you don't have sufficient charge to survive re-entry.

Lastly wetworkshop tanks magically gain fuel after a revert, or loading a saved design, or even leaving and re-entering the VAB.

 

Reproduction steps.  (Bugs seen in a career mode save in KSP 1.2.2, and reproduced in sandbox).

Firstly the battery priority.  Build the following ship.  Mk1 command pod.  TR-18A stack decoupler.  PPD-10 hitchhiker storage container.  Add two Z-100 batteries to the hitchhiker container.  Launch with 1 kerbal crew and use Alt-F12 to cheat it into kerbal orbit.  The game will use command pods EC before touching the Z-100s.

Secondly the magical wetworkshop tanks.  Build the following.  Mk1 command pod.  Rockomax X200-32 fueltank.  Note the weight 18888 kg.  Deploy to the launchpad, and revert to the VAB.  (Alternatively you can trigger the bug by simply leaving and re-entering the VAB, or by saving and then loading the design). The same ship now weighs 34891 kg.  The command pod has gained 3kg weight, and the fueltank has gained 16000 kg.  (Dry mass is the same.  It has gained an extra 16000kg of liquidfuel and oxidiser).   The FL-T800 and the Rockomax Jumbo-64 tank also have the same issue.

 

Installed mods:  Kerbalism 1.1.5-pre1;  Kerbal Engineer 1.1.2.8; Module Manager 2.7.5; Kerbal Alarm Clock v3.8.1.0; Transfer Window planner v1.6.0.0; TriggerAu's flag pack;  KSP 1.2.2.1622 64bit.

Edited December 7, 2016 by AVaughan

[SavageAngel]

@ShotgunNinja I have continued attempting to get the radiation belts to display with no success. I also noticed that everyone else having this issue is using an Nvidia gpu. Not sure if that's just a coincidence or not. Let me know if a full log or any other information would be helpful. 

Also, the rest of the update is amazing I have been waiting for the Kerbalism update to start playing KSP again and its been worth it. Thank you for putting in the time to create this.

[ShotgunNinja]

@AVaughan Thanks for the detailed report.

 

30 minutes ago, AVaughan said:

First the minor issues. Twice kerbals on eva seemed stuck in ragdoll mode, even whilst maneuvering with the suit jetpack.  (And they use tons of mono-propellant as they flop around almost uncontrollably).

No idea on this one. Maybe unrelated with this mod, albeit I am setting a 'frozen state' on EVA kerbal deaths.

 

30 minutes ago, AVaughan said:

Secondly, under some circumstances the game seems to use the command pod's EC before starting on the other batteries available.  This can be a problem if you decouple the command pod for re-entry and discover you don't have sufficient charge to survive re-entry.

This is a limitation of my background consumption algorithm, that I plan to address in the near future.

 

30 minutes ago, AVaughan said:

Lastly wetworkshop tanks magically gain fuel after a revert, or loading a saved design, or even leaving and re-entering the VAB.

I was able to replicate this. Don't know how it went unnoticed from my side...

 

@SavageAngel My pleasure

And you are right, the fields not rendering must be (yet another) Nvidia/Unity issue. I will fix it in a way or another before releasing a stable version.

Two things you can try right now to help me:

• enable Signal, launch a vessel with an antenna in LKO and check if the signal lines are rendered correctly
• set LowQualityRendering to true in Settings.cfg, and try to see if the radiation fields are rendered

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by ShotgunNinja
typo

[SavageAngel]

16 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

Two things you can try right now to help me:

• enable Signal, launch a vessel with an antenna in LKO and check if the signal lines are rendered correctly
• set LowQualityRendering to true in Settings.cfg, and try to see if the radiation fields are rendered

 

http://imgur.com/a/Gj7ah

http://imgur.com/a/2dVsN

I assume the signals lines are correct not really sure what they are suppose to look like.

I'll attempt that second part in a minute.

[aluc24]

@ShotgunNinja , sorry to report an old bug... But it still seems persistent in the  1.1.4 version when run on KSP 1.1.3. The bug is that during time acceleration in KSC and a manned vessel in low Kerbin orbit, I get a message that electricity has run out, and the Kerbal is dying. When I switch to vessel, all is good, though there are messages like "Bob Kerman is hugging the climatizer". Vessel has enough batteries and solar panels to survive dark part of the orbit. Batteries never go anywhere near empty when vessel is active. Only from KSC. I suppose time acceleration might accidentally kill kerbals - I don't want to try it.

I tried disabling all other mods, but this behavior still persists. Seems random. Sorry I can't be of much more help...

[AVaughan]

16 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

Thanks for the detailed report.

Your welcome.  And thanks for the fast reply.

18 minutes ago, ShotgunNinja said:

47 minutes ago, AVaughan said:

First the minor issues. Twice kerbals on eva seemed stuck in ragdoll mode, even whilst maneuvering with the suit jetpack.  (And they use tons of mono-propellant as they flop around almost uncontrollably).

No idea on this one. Maybe unrelated with this mod, albeit I am setting a 'frozen state' on EVA kerbal deaths.

I wouldn't have expected these kerbals to have died.  One was a rescue kerbal who went ragdoll mode when he released his grip on his mk1 pod.  (Or possibly was already ragdoll.  I wouldn't have noticed until he started manoeuvring with his jetpack).  He just flopped around jetting rcs fuel in all directions and and never seemed to orient to any one facing.  I the end I needed to reset him by switching to another vessel.  I think I might have seen the same behaviour months ago with another kerbal.  

The second was a kerbel who didn't really leave ragdoll mode when he stood up after dropping to the surface of the mun.  Again he refused to properly orient when I tried to use his jetpack to get him back in his capsule.  Eventually he knocked his head on something and fell to the surface again, and was then fine when he stood up again.

These could easily be a stock bug, or possibly a rare stock bug that is occurs more often after you make the changes for eva life support.  Probably not worth spending time trying to track down, unless other people also start reporting similar issues.

3 minutes ago, aluc24 said:

@ShotgunNinja , sorry to report an old bug... But it still seems persistent in the  1.1.4 version when run on KSP 1.1.3. The bug is that during time acceleration in KSC and a manned vessel in low Kerbin orbit, I get a message that electricity has run out, and the Kerbal is dying. When I switch to vessel, all is good, though there are messages like "Bob Kerman is hugging the climatizer". Vessel has enough batteries and solar panels to survive dark part of the orbit. Batteries never go anywhere near empty when vessel is active. Only from KSC. I suppose time acceleration might accidentally kill kerbals - I don't want to try it.

I tried disabling all other mods, but this behavior still persists. Seems random. Sorry I can't be of much more help...

Any possibility the ship was eclipsed by the Mun for part of it's previous orbit(s)?  That can mean that you are in shadow more than you anticipate.

[aluc24]

9 minutes ago, AVaughan said:

Any possibility the ship was eclipsed by the Mun for part of it's previous orbit(s)?  That can mean that you are in shadow more than you anticipate.

I'm afraid not. Mun was on the far side of Kerbin at the time.

[ShotgunNinja]

@aluc24 To clarify, are you seeing this bug happening in version 1.1.5 pre1?

[aluc24]

Just now, ShotgunNinja said:

@aluc24 To clarify, are you seeing this bug happening in version 1.1.5 pre1?

Haven't tried experimental versions yet. Just the official 1.1.4 release. 

[ShotgunNinja]

@aluc24 Ah okay, I feel better already 

That nasty bug has been fixed in this new version (tm).

[aluc24]

Just now, ShotgunNinja said:

@aluc24 Ah okay, I feel better already 

That nasty bug has been fixed in this new version (tm).

I'm very glad to hear it. Looking forward to the official release. No pressure  Keep up the good work!

[AVaughan]

Oh.  One other issue I meant to comment about.  I like the colour coding for used/produced resources for converters, but that might cause problems for anyone who is red/green colour-blind.  

Edited December 8, 2016 by AVaughan
Spelling.

[kraden]

@AVaughan I've experienced that problem with ragdoll kerbals as well. I never associated it with Kerbalism, but now that I think about the time frame I was seeing it, it only happened when I was playing 1.1.3 with Kerbalism installed (haven't tested the experimental version).

[SavageAngel]

@ShotgunNinja Ok, well the signal lines seem to be rendering fine. However Setting LowQualityrendering to true did not fix the fields.

[AVaughan]

31 minutes ago, kraden said:

@AVaughan I've experienced that problem with ragdoll kerbals as well. I never associated it with Kerbalism, but now that I think about the time frame I was seeing it, it only happened when I was playing 1.1.3 with Kerbalism installed (haven't tested the experimental version).

Well I think I might have seen it once before, but I definitely didn't have kerbalism installed then.  I probably had KIS + KAS + Tac-life support, and maybe Interstellar Extended.  Lots of stuff that modifies what kerbals have and how they behave during EVAs.  They do similar things, so possibly they share similar code to Kerbalism.

[The-Doctor]

@ShotgunNinja could you set the scrubbers to be automatically on? Many people like myself will lose a lot of Kerbals due to this.