The Grand KSP 1.1 Discussion Thread

[adsii1970]

2 hours ago, Majorjim said:

Really? Where does it say this?

My game crashes every time I play. Sometimes during un-docking of large part craft sometimes at random in the editor but it is every single time I play. NO mods, 64bit.

Just saying.

If I were to guess, it has to be some sort of stack overflow error. Last night I was playing KSP and "assisting" my five year old get Valentina into orbit. My daughter became frustrated after having three crashes. There were a couple of things that did cause the crash: 1) excessive vehicle editing in the VAB - it took my daughter nearly two hours to build the perfect rocket. 2) at least four reverts in a row and within a thirty minute period.

Her style of play had to generate a lot of garbage in Unity.  I bet that other users are having this issue, too!

[Majorjim!]

1 minute ago, adsii1970 said:

If I were to guess, it has to be some sort of stack overflow error. Last night I was playing KSP and "assisting" my five year old get Valentina into orbit. My daughter became frustrated after having three crashes. There were a couple of things that did cause the crash: 1) excessive vehicle editing in the VAB - it took my daughter nearly two hours to build the perfect rocket. 2) at least four reverts in a row and within a thirty minute period.

Her style of play had to generate a lot of garbage in Unity.  I bet that other users are having this issue, too!

There ain't nothing excessive about vehicle editing.  

 I do revert a lot during testing though. 

[steve_v]

7 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Well the most frequent is the undocking of two ships

5 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

There were a couple of things that did cause the crash: 1) excessive vehicle editing in the VAB - it took my daughter nearly two hours to build the perfect rocket. 2) at least four reverts in a row and within a thirty minute period.

Well, the most obvious commonality between scene-changes / reverts and docking / undocking would be... lots of threads to spawn / despawn. If this is a thread-safety issue in Unity, I'm not surprised it's hard to reproduce.

Edited May 7, 2016 by steve_v

[adsii1970]

2 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

There ain't nothing excessive about vehicle editing.  

 I do revert a lot during testing though. 

Try it with a 5 year old girl... I had to convince her she'd need to add moar boosters to achieve orbit. She would add parts, not like the look of it, and then remove a bunch of parts. Let's just say that what she ended up with launching into orbit had a part count of 172 parts and was so ugly that not even NASA or the ESA would want to use it as a model. It literally looked like a rocket powered Jeb's Junkyard Nightmare!

[smjjames]

8 hours ago, NathanKell said:

@smjjames for the record, we have left unfixed precisely _zero_ crashes we've been able to reliably reproduce. We are aware there are other more random-ish once, but thus far they have eluded reliable reproduction.

Ask @Agathorn how long we spent on fixing the OSX crash-on-load bug during the height of crunch (that one _was_ reliably reproducible, and therefore fixable).

Yeah, I was thinking of those random difficult-to-reproduce crashes.

[steve_v]

8 hours ago, NathanKell said:

For the record, we have left unfixed precisely _zero_ crashes we've been able to reliably reproduce. We are aware there are other more random-ish once, but thus far they have eluded reliable reproduction.

While I understand that elusive bugs are difficult to fix, this does not make them go away. There are enough user-reported unexplained crashes by now that "cannot reproduce" is beginning to sound rather lame.

If this is a memory-management or thread-safety issue in Unity/mono, you likely won't find any reliable reproduction steps. The best bet in this case would be to write a small project to intentionally thrash these systems, then take the results to the Unity devs. If they tell you (as I suspect they will, there are a lot of "crash" related notes in the changelog) that there has been progress on this in recent releases, then you need to port to 5.3 ASAP.

I'll ask again: Who is working on this, and what progress been made? Are you communicating with Unity, and what do they have to say about it?
I realise this is probably not going to be an easy fix, but a little clear communication would go a long way towards calming your customers.

[mcirish3]

3 minutes ago, steve_v said:

While I understand that elusive bugs are difficult to fix, this does not make them go away. There are enough user-reported unexplained crashes by now that "cannot reproduce" is beginning to sound rather lame.

If this is a memory-management or thread-safety issue in Unity/mono, you likely won't find any reliable reproduction steps. The best bet in this case would be to write a small project to intentionally thrash these systems, then take the results to the Unity devs. If they tell you (as I suspect they will, there are a lot of "crash" related notes in the changelog) that there has been progress on this in recent releases, then you need to port to 5.3 ASAP.

I'll ask again: Who is working on this, and what progress been made? Are you communicating with Unity, and what do they have to say about it?
I realise this is probably not going to be an easy fix, but a little clear communication would go a long way towards calming your customers.

One of the problems with this kind of issue, is that often the non reproducible ones, are caused by a very precise set of circumstances meeting at the crossroads of very specific hardware and software configurations.  Sometimes the circumstances are particular to the hardware.   Hardware issue are particularly hard to resolve since squad literally CANNOT test all configurations and often the cause is not reported in the error log.

[Alexoff]

As I understand, in 1.12 it's impossible to use rovers on Eve? I put two types of rovers to Eve, motors cannot roll rovers, everytime I just roll down hill. Another guy said that rovers cannot work in RSS at all.

[mcirish3]

8 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

As I understand, in 1.12 it's impossible to use rovers on Eve? I put two types of rovers to Eve, motors cannot roll rovers, everytime I just roll down hill. Another guy said that rovers cannot work in RSS at all.

Turn the traction control off.  The current setup of traction control only is useful on flat ground.

[steve_v]

25 minutes ago, mcirish3 said:

One of the problems with this kind of issue, is that often the non reproducible ones, are caused by a very precise set of circumstances meeting at the crossroads of very specific hardware and software configurations.  Sometimes the circumstances are particular to the hardware.   Hardware issue are particularly hard to resolve since squad literally CANNOT test all configurations and often the cause is not reported in the error log.

No kidding.
However: This issue has been reported by many different people, on a range of hardware configurations and operating systems. Assuming this is all the same bug (and from the stack traces I suspect it is) I seriously doubt that a) Squad has never seen this in their test environment, and b) it's as hardware specific as you claim - do you have any data to back up that claim?

Again, communication from Squad would clear this right up.

----

9 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

As I understand, in 1.12 it's impossible to use rovers on Eve? I put two types of rovers to Eve, motors cannot roll rovers, everytime I just roll down hill. Another guy said that rovers cannot work in RSS at all.

Having tested a "rover on eve" save posted (yours maybe?), I can say: IME, yes. Rovers are indeed a non-starter on Eve, or any high gravity body. That likely includes RSS.

Edited May 7, 2016 by steve_v

[mcirish3]

1 minute ago, steve_v said:

do you have any data to back up that claim?

No, KSP runs great on my PC.  Just speaking from general experience.

[_Astra_]

 

The fuel management became extremely inaccurate in 1.1 compared to 1.0.5.

 

Cannot fine-tune the mass anymore because the minimum mass change now is fixed to ten capacity percent  (10% of tank).

 

For a 7500 capacity it means roughly four ton. Loading a small vessel in four ton units.... unbelievable.

[steve_v]

7 minutes ago, _Astra_ said:

Cannot fine-tune the mass anymore because the minimum mass change now is fixed to ten capacity percent  (10% of tank).

As someone who rather likes building atmospheric VTOLs, this is indeed irritating. It's also somewhat counter-intuitive as the slider can be moved to intermediate positions without a corresponding change in fuel quantity.
But for me, as far as whining goes, bugs>stupid "features". So I'll stay quiet on this one... for now.

Edited May 7, 2016 by steve_v

[Arsonide]

59 minutes ago, steve_v said:

While I understand that elusive bugs are difficult to fix, this does not make them go away. There are enough user-reported unexplained crashes by now that "cannot reproduce" is beginning to sound rather lame.

If this is a memory-management or thread-safety issue in Unity/mono, you likely won't find any reliable reproduction steps. The best bet in this case would be to write a small project to intentionally thrash these systems, then take the results to the Unity devs. If they tell you (as I suspect they will, there are a lot of "crash" related notes in the changelog) that there has been progress on this in recent releases, then you need to port to 5.3 ASAP.

I'll ask again: Who is working on this, and what progress been made? Are you communicating with Unity, and what do they have to say about it?
I realise this is probably not going to be an easy fix, but a little clear communication would go a long way towards calming your customers.

You are requesting clear communication, which is what @NathanKell has provided you with despite being on vacation. We will continue to work on these issues internally when we get back from our break. If we have more information at that time, then it will be in our devnotes.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Arsonide

[_Astra_]

Steve_v, i suppose the intuitive way is to put an exact number of what do you want to get. By typing keys, not sliding.

But the 1.1 seems to "correct" the numbers itself.

 

I'm mostly a plane flyer so the mass balance is vital for me.

 

 

<i>as the slider can be moved to intermediate positions without a corresponding change in fuel quantity.</i>

 

It worked right in 1.0.5. With a corresponding change in very small increments.

Edited May 7, 2016 by _Astra_

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

Having tested a "rover on eve" save posted (yours maybe?), I can say: IME, yes. Rovers are indeed a non-starter on Eve, or any high gravity body. That likely includes RSS.

Yep, it's my bugpost. Bad news...

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

10 hours ago, Majorjim said:

Really? Where does it say this?

[...]

It looks like the forum ate my post, I hope this isn't a double post.

I was wrong about that, I though one of those settings said something about weird text, but they don't.

[Barefoot Friar]

1.1.2 has crashed more today (all the way down to my Ubuntu login screen) than all the previous versions have combined.  To say I'm a wee bit frustrated is a vast understatement.  Thing is I've done everything I can think of to fix it on my end with no luck.  I think I'm going back to 1.0.5 until this is actually playable.

[N_Molson]

Tried an unmodded install carreer game (x64). I must say I had no crashes so far. However, a few mods turn the game into a crash fest.

[Wragie]

Have to agree 100%, no mods, no crashes.

I went from every mod I could load down to nada and there is definitely a correlation. I was having the odd crash (but still many times more stable than 1.0.5) even with it running everything. The most annoying issues were not being able to dock and random gear leg explosions.

With no mods zero crashes, and the gear legs now explode only when it is the most annoying to do so. Actually they seem to explode on contact from certain directions. 

I have been slowly adding back in mods to see which ones to avoid.

[Belerafon]

Here's a problem I had:

The dirt kraken:

ðə dərt kraken

1. A kraken that renders the space center inutile by moving it several hundred meters into the ground.

2. A relatively small, but incredibly disruptive bug that defeats the purpose of KSP. 

3. A program glitch that prevents players from launching or flying any space-faring vehicle. 

Have fun fixin' it!

[smjjames]

17 hours ago, Belerafon said:

Here's a problem I had:

The dirt kraken:

ðə dərt kraken

1. A kraken that renders the space center inutile by moving it several hundred meters into the ground.

2. A relatively small, but incredibly disruptive bug that defeats the purpose of KSP. 

3. A program glitch that prevents players from launching or flying any space-faring vehicle. 

Have fun fixin' it!

They can't fix it if you don't report the bug in the bugtracker.....

Edited May 8, 2016 by smjjames

[Belerafon]

2 hours ago, smjjames said:

They can't fix it if you don't report the bug in the bugtracker.....

Someone already did

[Mike Mars]

On 5/7/2016 at 4:12 PM, Wragie said:

Have to agree 100%, no mods, no crashes.

I went from every mod I could load down to nada and there is definitely a correlation. I was having the odd crash (but still many times more stable than 1.0.5) even with it running everything. The most annoying issues were not being able to dock and random gear leg explosions.

With no mods zero crashes, and the gear legs now explode only when it is the most annoying to do so. Actually they seem to explode on contact from certain directions. 

I have been slowly adding back in mods to see which ones to avoid.

My experience as well.

Did a fresh install and have added mods slowly.

I only crash a couple of times a week now.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Mike Mars

[Death Engineering]

 

Has aero changed or perhaps drag on these parts changed? I used to be able to use this type of three-crew capsule in early career for tourism, etc. but it wont point shield-down in 1.1.x, but worked perfectly fine in 1.0.5