Potential fix for wheel bug, take 2.

[GoSlash27]

All,

 This adjustment to the .cfg file seems to eliminate the skittering problem with the stock LY-01 gear. Please download it and temporarily replace the existing .cfg file to see if it works for you.

Rename your stock .cfg file, but do not delete it!

http://wikisend.com/download/102902/GearFixed.cfg

Please report your findings back to this thread so we can see if we're making progress.

Best,
-Slashy

 

[Gaarst]

What does this cfg do exactly ? (Haven't tried, just curious)

[GoSlash27]

9 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

What does this cfg do exactly ? (Haven't tried, just curious)

It lowers the damper ratio to .3, reduces the spring ratio to 20, and increases the suspension travel to .2m.

Best,
-Slashy

Edited April 23, 2016 by GoSlash27

[Gaarst]

What are the wheels not supposed to do again ?

Because if it's making your plane/vehicle zigzag past 40m/s then I'm afraid your config doesn't work. Other than that the wheels seem to work fine at lower speeds, at least on the runway.

EDIT: .craft file here and screenshots:

Wheels are placed using angle snap, perfectly straight and at 90° on the plane

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Gaarst

[GoSlash27]

21 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

What are the wheels not supposed to do again ?

Because if it's making your plane/vehicle zigzag past 40m/s then I'm afraid your config doesn't work. Other than that the wheels seem to work fine at lower speeds, at least on the runway.

EDIT: .craft file here and screenshots:

Wheels are placed using angle snap, perfectly straight and at 90° on the plane

 

There seems to be 2 completely different bugs at work. The one I'm talking about is different.

 The "skittering" problem I'm talking about is where the vehicle spawns, the wheels vibrate, and the craft drifts around on the surface/ bounces/ flips/ explodes before you even get it moving.

Best,
-Slashy

 

[Gaarst]

Just now, GoSlash27 said:

There seems to be 2 completely different bugs at work. The one I'm talking about is different.

 The "skittering" problem I'm talking about is where the vehicle spawns, the wheels vibrate, and the craft drifts around on the surface/ bounces/ flips/ explodes before you even get it moving.

Best,
-Slashy

 

Well, it might be depending on the design, but this craft spawns normally and doesn't explode or other stuff, that is with your config. I'm going to see how this behaves without your config and maybe experience with a few other designs to see what happens.

[GoSlash27]

1 minute ago, Gaarst said:

Well, it might be depending on the design, but this craft spawns normally and doesn't explode or other stuff, that is with your config. I'm going to see how this behaves without your config and maybe experience with a few other designs to see what happens.

Gaarst,

 Thanks, but I'm thinking this may be a bug that doesn't hit everybody. If you didn't see it right off the bat, you're probably immune.

 Still... I'm thankful for whatever help you can offer!

-Slashy

[Alshain]

31 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

What are the wheels not supposed to do again ?

Because if it's making your plane/vehicle zigzag past 40m/s then I'm afraid your config doesn't work. Other than that the wheels seem to work fine at lower speeds, at least on the runway.

EDIT: .craft file here and screenshots:

Wheels are placed using angle snap, perfectly straight and at 90° on the plane

Your issue sounds like another problem we have been discussing elsewhere. The workaround is to put some inward camber on the wheels (i.e. angle them in very slightly so the wheels make a V)

[Gaarst]

Off topic again, but the same design without your config can't get over 30m/s, as if the wheels had really high friction.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to find 15 wheels-related bugs before finding yours but I'll keep searching.

Also, some installs being immune to a bug on a purely stock install seems a bit strange to me (I don't know a lot about coding stuff though).

EDIT:

Thank you @Alshain, I haven't really been in the forums in 2 months so I might have missed a few discussions 

 

EDIT2: @GoSlash27

Sticking 10 of these wheels on a simple craft (more wheels = more bugs, right ?) has caused the issue you described to appear without your config, I'm looking to see what happens with it.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Gaarst

[GoSlash27]

2 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

Off topic again, but the same design without your config can't get over 30m/s, as if the wheels had really high friction.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to find 15 wheels-related bugs before finding yours but I'll keep searching.

Also, some installs being immune to a bug on a purely stock install seems a bit strange to me (I don't know a lot about coding stuff though).

EDIT:

Thank you @Alshain, I haven't really been in the forums in 2 months so I might have missed a few discussions 

Gaarst,

 Yeah, it's definitely strange, but par for the course with so many different platforms.

 For me, the way to reproduce the failure is to simply spawn anything with the LY-01 gear, sit back, and watch the Kraken feast. Others have reported the same problem with the LY-05, but that works fine for me *shrug*. I have my doubts that you'll ever see this problem, but I have noticed that it gets worse with increasing weight on the gear.

 Maybe try ridiculously overloading the gear and see if silly things start happening?

Best,
-Slashy

 

[GoSlash27]

19 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

Sticking 10 of these wheels on a simple craft (more wheels = more bugs, right ?) has caused the issue you described to appear without your config, I'm looking to see what happens with it.

Woooow... O.O

I wouldn't have even guessed

 

[Gaarst]

11 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Gaarst,

 Yeah, it's definitely strange, but par for the course with so many different platforms.

 For me, the way to reproduce the failure is to simply spawn anything with the LY-01 gear, sit back, and watch the Kraken feast. Others have reported the same problem with the LY-05, but that works fine for me *shrug*. I have my doubts that you'll ever see this problem, but I have noticed that it gets worse with increasing weight on the gear.

 Maybe try ridiculously overloading the gear and see if silly things start happening?

Best,
-Slashy

 

I don't know if you have seen my previous edit, but I managed to get your issue by adding 10 wheels to a simple design (so lowering load on each wheels, but let's not mind this).

Don't mind the above, didn't see your second reply

I haven't had this problem anymore while using your config, for this design (the high friction issue seems to be gone also). The craft spawns normally, but the wheels are a bit "off" the gear (too low relative to their casing (don't know how to call this)) which I guess is a direct consequence of editing suspension values.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Gaarst

[GoSlash27]

5 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

I don't know if you have seen my previous edit, but I managed to get your issue by adding 10 wheels to a simple design (so lowering load on each wheels, but let's not mind this).

I haven't had this problem anymore while using your config, for this design (the high friction issue seems to be gone also). The craft spawns normally, but the wheels are a bit "off" the gear (too low relative to their casing (don't know how to call this)) which I guess is a direct consequence of editing suspension values.

Gaarst,

 I'm seriously puzzled by the fact that you reproduced the bug by "adding* wheels, but okay

The increased suspension travel was something I plugged in intentionally, so it rides a little high when unloaded or lightly- loaded. I may be able to tweak that out.

Thanks,
-Slashy

 

[Gaarst]

@GoSlash27 Nevermind what I said: removing the Goliath I stuck on the craft (please don't ask why), so lowering the load on each wheel, has made the bug appear, even with your config.

Heavy loads seem to damp the suspensions, preventing them from wobbling around. With close to no load the wobbling is stronger.

Now, emptying the fuel tank on the craft (reducing the load from ~500kg/wheel to 250) makes the wobbling disappear again. But emptying the tank also moves the CoM forward the craft (because of the heavy cockpit), so the uneven load on the wheels or slight tilt of the craft might play a role in this.

Pic of the craft used in spoiler.

Spoiler

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Gaarst

[GoSlash27]

2 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

removing the Goliath I stuck on the craft (please don't ask why),

I like your style!

 This runs me into a problem: Adding mass seems to have the opposite effect for me; lighter vehicles behave, while heavier vehicles tend to exhibit skittering.

 I'll go back to the lab and give you another .cfg to try.

Best,
-Slashy

[MaxPeck]

I'm having this issue with all of the landing gear.  It seems that if you load them heavy, as someone suggested, that they behave more or less.  If you have too much landing gear for a light aircraft, they jump around like an impatient toddler waiting for chocolate milk - as my toddler is doing right now.

[Jetski]

Posted about this here but realized probably better to post results here.  I installed your .cfg, and it did prevent the instant skittering and explosion that plagued me.  Didn't really make the wheels usable necessarily - any physics warp causes them to explode cheerfully, and steering seems locked?  Or just way more grip on the tarmac.  Some of this may be intended behavior by Squad, so hard to tell.  But the cfg does fix the bug I was experiencing.

[GoSlash27]

7 hours ago, Jetski said:

Posted about this here but realized probably better to post results here.  I installed your .cfg, and it did prevent the instant skittering and explosion that plagued me.  Didn't really make the wheels usable necessarily - any physics warp causes them to explode cheerfully, and steering seems locked?  Or just way more grip on the tarmac.  Some of this may be intended behavior by Squad, so hard to tell.  But the cfg does fix the bug I was experiencing.

Thanks for the info. I'm still trying to puzzle out the behavior. I'm still hopeful that we can iron out this bug with a .cfg edit. I'll let you know when I come up with the next tweak.

Best,
-Slashy

[Majorjim!]

I have seen this exact behaviour with the LT-2 landing legs. They vibrate the craft across the ground like a vibrating mobile phone on a table. That is if they survive the physics loading in. I suspect it is also suspension related as the legs are now wheels..

[GoSlash27]

Majorjim,

Thanks, I'll put that on the list.

In the meantime, could you folks give this .cfg file a try for the LY-01?

http://wikisend.com/download/413568/GearFixed.cfg

I think that should do it...

Best,
-Slashy

[Gaarst]

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Majorjim,

Thanks, I'll put that on the list.

In the meantime, could you folks give this .cfg file a try for the LY-01?

http://wikisend.com/download/413568/GearFixed.cfg

I think that should do it...

Best,
-Slashy

Your second config seems to have solved the problem, at least for the design I used. The craft no longer jumps around upon spawning, under both very heavy and light loads (also seems to have solved the issue I described earlier where the craft would become uncontrollable around 40m/s.  Forget that last part, I just had the issue with a similar design.

More tests from other people could give more consistent results, but this seems to be a good start.

(Also, what does this cfg do ?)

Edited April 23, 2016 by Gaarst

[GoSlash27]

17 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

Your second config seems to have solved the problem, at least for the design I used. The craft no longer jumps around upon spawning, under both very heavy and light loads (also seems to have solved the issue I described earlier where the craft would become uncontrollable around 40m/s.  Forget that last part, I just had the issue with a similar design.

More tests from other people could give more consistent results, but this seems to be a good start.

(Also, what does this cfg do ?)

Good news!

 The uncontrollability problem looks to be a completely different issue. Perhaps a problem with friction sharpness or oscillations in the gear mounts. If it's the latter, I may not be able to find a cure. You might be able to eliminate it by adding a hair of toe-in and negative camber.

 This revision of the .cfg dropped the spring ratio to 15 and set the target position to .6. It seems that the cause of the jittering is excessive spring ratio and damper ratio. To make it live with a reduced spring ratio (oscillates more slowly, but with more distance), I have to find ways to give the gear room to travel without bottoming out, yet not look goofy.

Best,
-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Gaarst,

 I think I solved your swerving problem: You had the gear on backwards. I flipped them right way 'round and it tracked straight up to 125 m/sec.

http://wikisend.com/download/948718/Gaarst.craft

Best,
-Slashy

[Majorjim!]

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Good news!

 The uncontrollability problem looks to be a completely different issue. Perhaps a problem with friction sharpness or oscillations in the gear mounts. If it's the latter, I may not be able to find a cure. You might be able to eliminate it by adding a hair of toe-in and negative camber.

 This revision of the .cfg dropped the spring ratio to 15 and set the target position to .6. It seems that the cause of the jittering is excessive spring ratio and damper ratio. To make it live with a reduced spring ratio (oscillates more slowly, but with more distance), I have to find ways to give the gear room to travel without bottoming out, yet not look goofy.

Best,
-Slashy

Can you send this to a dev? It may help them with legs as well as wheels. 

[Gaarst]

4 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Gaarst,

 I think I solved your swerving problem: You had the gear on backwards. I flipped them right way 'round and it tracked straight up to 125 m/sec.

http://wikisend.com/download/948718/Gaarst.craft

Best,
-Slashy

Oh yes, it is backwards, never noticed, thank you.

Anyway, if I want my gear to go backwards at hundreds of m/s, I should be able to, I don't see why there are differences between backward and forward.

 

Back to topic: I also noticed that while stable when spawning thanks to your config, the "softer" suspensions causes the craft to roll left and right slowly when travelling above 50m/s, eventually causing the demise of the craft. Not sure it is linked to your config or not, but there are things to investigate there.