Is it true that most KSP players never go interplanetary?

[KerikBalm]

23 minutes ago, Sereneti said:

1) Docking
2) no autopilot
3) no info
4) waste a lot of time
5) no fun
6) riski for manned spaceflights -

1) Not really needed just to send probes, especially 1 way probes. Not really needed to visit Duna and return (but it helps).

2) Im not going to start the mechjeb debate again, but I don't see this as a problem.

3) So the transfer window planner, dV required, and vessel dV are what you want?

4) Timewarp? or you mean trial end error, and having to try timewarping to different points to try a transfer window - once you find the transfer window, save there, and you have a save where you can immediately launch missions to the desired planet

5) why is it no fun, but going to Mun or minmus is?

6) and unmanned?

 

12 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

But if i can encourage others who think about leaving Kerbin's SOI: going to Duna isn't more difficult as going to the mun, it doesn't take that much more dV (see the charts), but doing it the first time is of course much more rewarding. The game mechanics with maneuver-nodes and course-markers make these trips really easy.

Actually, getting to the *surface* of duna intact takes less dV than landing on the Mun thanks to its atmosphere... this is even true for minmus... direct aerocapture and landing saves the burn required to circularize/land at mun/minmus. A 1 way probe is quite easy as far as the dV requirements

 

7 minutes ago, Docsprock said:

I am one of those. I have been to Duna once, using infinite fuel, and Laythe once the same way.

 And there are a lot of reasons I wont attempt travelling outward again.

Going to Mun/Minmus doesnt take much, fuel wise, or planning wise. For anything further, I have to just eyeball the fuel and hope for the best. Not fun when you spend the better part of a day making a trip to Duna only to find out you do not have enough fuel.

Trial and error to reach the outer planets is not enjoyable for me. Playing a game, and having to use pen, paper and calculator, is not enjoyable either.

Plus, like others have posted, docking is a ridiculous chore, and I plan to never attempt it again. (Spent an entire weekend docking a ship to a station, only to have it blow up.) I dont have the patience or 'fine touch' everyone else seems to have.

Then there is modding. I have nothing really against modding in general, in fact I have several games that I have heavily modded. Just not this one. When this game is complete, I will consider modding. I will not mod the game because I 'must' to have fun.

So, I just sit on Kerbin and make my planes and rovers.

"Going to Mun/Minmus doesnt take much, fuel wise, or planning wise. For anything further, I have to just eyeball the fuel and hope for the best" - If you could land it on Mun, you could land it on Duna (with appropriate aerodynamics and maybe just a little heat shielding)... for a 1 way mission.

"docking is a ridiculous chore, and I plan to never attempt it again." - as my response to 2) at the top... its not needed for 1 way trips, or trips to duna it definitely helps for return and the "Apollo style" efficiency gains... but thats not an issue for 1 way probes. Also... my eve ascent vehicle lacks docking ports completely due to aerodynamic considerations... its occupants will have to eva over to the return vehicle. You don't need to dock to get your kerbals back, just rendevous and EVA over.

"Playing a game, and having to use pen, paper and calculator, is not enjoyable either." - different strokes for different folks... look what I did when I didn't have access to my laptop due to an evacuation due to a chemical spill at my lab:

I generally only use two mods: KER for the faster dV readouts, and Hyperedit for tinkering in sandbox... HE is like using a "cheat" though, but it seems appropriate for a sandbox. (I also use planet mods and my own part mods, but thats nothing major).

 

*Would a planet/planetoid at L4/L5, such that you can transfer equally well at any time, help people make the jump to interplanetary flights?

Going there and back would take about the same dV as going to duna and back... I've added such a planet to my game... and I think its quite interesting... but its heavily ripping off real world data to make its geography interesting:

Like Laythe, its got O2 in the atmosphere (the atmosphere is thin though, less than 2x the density of Duna's) ... I'm wondering if it would make a good "trainer planet" for interplanetary voyages.

[eddiew]

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

#2) For the remaining portion: what prevented them from going on interplanetary missions next?

I went interplanetary only after I had MechJeb to plot the burn and give me some delta-v readouts    

But I made it my business to go out and find MechJeb and then KER, because I like the game. I really do feel this is a stumbling block for a lot of folks however... Particularly the absence of launch windows is hard to handle. How many hundred days should you fast forward before setting another manoeuvre node? Did you jump 50 days ahead and miss your window? There's a lot of trial and error there and none of it is friendly to a player who just wants to get things done ^^;

[RizzoTheRat]

I can well believe it's true.

Can't remember what version I started on (before career mode existed) but I've been playing on and off for a few years and have only been to Duna and Ike once.

Usually I either start to get bored, real life gets in the way, or they release a new version and I start a new career save.  On my 1.05 game I got distracted building mining stations on both moons and never got further than sending ScanSat/RemoteTech probes out to other planets.  This time I plan to head to Duna/Ike once my current team get back from their Minmus/Mun science expedition...but might well get distracted again, I do tend to have the attention span of a 

 

 

 

ETA:

Reading some of the reasons others have mentioned I agree that have some valid points.

I use KER to get dV readouts, not having that would be a chore.

I use RemoteTech as I feel it ads an extra challenge and a bit of realism, but one other thing it does is adds the flight computer.  I set up nodes manually and then get the computer to do the burn, otherwise I've forever missing the point I've should have started thrusting, and it just becomes a pain

For interplanetary stuff I look online for phase angle timings as I can't be bothered to work it for myself, and use Kerbal Alarm Clock to remind me when they get there.

Playing the vanilla game wouldn't necessarily make going interplanetary harder, but it would make it a lot more hassle, and there are a lot of people who don't use mods for various reasons.

Edited May 17, 2016 by RizzoTheRat

[SalehRam]

I have been playing KSP since 0.23, and I only gone out to Eve and Duna, and last planet was Moho after I was about to lose my brain...

Moho was the most painful to get there, I only did it briefly on sandbox not career, so now I am preparing my career to do interplanetary trips again.

[Warzouz]

5 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Made this meme a year and a half ago, sadly still relevant:

I really think it's the lack of planning tools that makes interplanetary travel challenging. After the first initial difficulty hump of getting to orbit, followed by getting to Mun/Minmus, the next step desired is interplanetary. But the game doesn't tell you anything about transfer windows or delta-V (aside from some passing mention in the new KSPedia), and the player time investment to get somewhere by trial and error is prohibitive. 

It is certainly possible to go interplanetary in stock, but it is very challenging for an inexperienced player, especially if they don't know to consult external tools/websites that show phase angle and all that. Trying to go at the "wrong" time can mean many times more fuel is required (tyranny of the rocket equation, etc).

The stock game really needs a delta-V meter and some way to show requirements and transfer window timing, these are the basic tools of interplanetary flight.

I 100% agree with that. It's near impossible for new player to go, even to Duna with stock features without using any external tools (maybe those 0.01% who studies orbital mechanics...). At least the game could warn us when Kerbin matches phase angles ! That would help a lot.

And again, without dV (and dV-map) and TWR it's very hard to design a working ship.

If you miss design a Mun ship, you can test rescue ship. It's quite fun to do. As for interplanetary, If you fail you ship, sending a rescue ship is much harder and you have to wait for the next transfer window.

• The round trip to Mun is 2 days.
• The round trip to Duna is up to 2 years (2x 6 month trip + wait for return window)

I also remember doing a Jool mission. I planned and played it for 3 weeks. This was a very nice experience but took a long time.

As for my present career game, I've finished my Duna mission and wait for the return window. But as I recover 2 more Kerbals and my return vehicle has only 3 seats I'm not too happy.

I've prepared from my second Jool mission (6 scan sat probes + Jool monolith vehicle from anomaly surveyor contract pack) even my first one (a school bus mission) is not in Jool SOI yet. I think I'll send several space stations on next window.

Sadly there is not much to do to improve interplanetary gameplay (there is room for stock too though). Interplanetary travel is more waiting than exploring...

[CaelumEtAstra]

I didn't go interplanetary until just recently, and even then they were just simple flyby probes. It's fun, but takes a lot of planning, effort, and then waiting. It's often easier and more satisfying to launch a station into LKO or build a communications network in KEO.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Mrsupersonic8
Wording, phrasing, clarifying.

[pxi]

It'd surprise me if most players never go interplanetary.  If most players generally stayed within Kerbin's SOI, that'd surprise me much less.

It's not all that difficult to do it either.  Fling a spacecraft into solar orbit, and then fish about with manoeuvre planning to find an intercept.  The only challenge in stock is having enough delta-v.

I wonder sometimes if there is so much focus on doing things in the most efficient way, that the simpler brute-force methods are overlooked.

[Jhawk1099]

5 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

I've heard it stated on these forums that many if not most of the KSP players haven't visited a body farther than minmus (and even fewer do more than land on eve/duna, and fewer still return from duna).

Is this true? If so why?

I have around 300 hours into the game. The places I have visited include the Eve, Duna, and Kerbin systems. I have landed and returned from all of these places except for Eve itself. I do plan a rather large mission to the Jool system over the summer though. I play with life support so yeah... its rough making it all the way out there

[suicidejunkie]

I've sent a probe to Duna.  It never actually arrived because I kept busy building sand castles in Kerbin's SOI, and then 1.0.5 dropped.

Currently, I'm starting to feel the desire to send out a long range probe, while busy building things like TACLS-based portapotties on Minmus, but 1.1 is available...

 

I do think that an L4/L5 body would be a great psychological stepping stone to tease players into the deep black, even if it doesn't save any actual dV.

[N_Danger]

 I've only gone to Duna. In fact I don't farm Minmus or the Mun for science, I farm Duna for science. The game then gets updated so I start over before getting any where else. 

I will say that with out a d/v map found out of game or mech jeb for a d/v readout in the VAB and the node editor I would have never tried.

Edited May 17, 2016 by N_Danger

[Hrv123]

Playing RO+RSS only, for year or two.  Early game is fun, LO stuff and going to Moon, and back, is fun. But after Moon, IRL time and effort needed to plan, build and execute missions to other planets are considerable larger, to do orbital randezvous to build larger spaceships is pain for me, to do space station logistic even larger. To collect more science for better ship parts to collect more science is kinda, well, lacking higher goal? Only once start building something that should be LO space station.

What is making everything a pain for me is that at one want point VAB exe stop working and/or bugs kill it, not fun to for hours fight game itself to make your 1000+ tons rocket work as it should at all, pass launching first step.  So usually around Moon missions and kerbals on it, and back, I stop current game and wait for next bunch of updates and then repeat the cycle.     Missions have some load game but VAB, I hate wasting IRL time in VAB from bugs. 

Atm I should do multiplying launching boosters made from engines, fuel tanks and parachutes, 100 tons and more, nothing fancy, and Im trying NOT to do them as long I can as I know what pain it will be to simply try to make that work and dont kill the exe in VAB.

 

EDIT: KSP vanilla is sooooooo easy, so little delta v needed to move around that is to easy and then boring, you can send rockets with starting first couple tech one way to Duna easy. Dont anybody educate them self with Scot Manley videos So I cant really understand people who cant go interplanetary in vanilla O_o

Edited May 17, 2016 by Hrv123

[Red Shirt]

39 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

I've added such a planet to my game... and I think its quite interesting.

Where did you find the giant orange? My game wants needs this!

[Superfluous J]

46 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

*Would a planet/planetoid at L4/L5, such that you can transfer equally well at any time, help people make the jump to interplanetary flights?

I think that's a great idea, though I think it should be a small planet. Maybe even a Pol/Bop type with a Gilly type moon. That would be a great stepping stone because you could ALWAYS go to it in the exact same, describable way without ever waiting for a transfer window.

Forget Gas Giant 2, I want a Kerbal Trojan!

[katateochi]

While I have visited each planet and moon, for most of them it's only been once and since 1.0 I've not left Kerbin's SOI. Mostly this is because I get the most enjoyment out of tinkering with designs and most of them can be well tested without leaving Kerbin's SOI, time is also a factor which limits how much I can be bothered with doing interplanetary transfers.  Another reason is I caught the terrible SSTO-obsession infection and my designs aren't good enough (yet) to do interplanetary missions without refueling. 

I'm sort of saving Jool and it's moons for when the game is more "complete" (although I've been a few times, I'm now not going back there).  I've also not been back to Duna since it got flattened by a steamroller! (although maybe with some visual enhancement mods it might have appeal again).

[theTyke]

2 hours ago, Kertech said:

I feel it's docking that holds people back, you could build an interplanetary vessel as soon as you have docking ports in career mode! Docking is a pain to learn and needs patience so a lot of people don't bother ( I know I didn't for a year! soon as I learnt I conquered the solar system!)

I don't think the docking process in itself is the pain to learn. It's trying to get the rendezvous with the not-so-nimble stock maneuver node system (especially if the target sits in a high orbit).

The maneuver system might also be part of the issue why people don't do interplanetary travel (combined with the pain of learning when the transfer window to a certain body is open and learning about the deltaV needs of a trip).

[Clubbavich]

I've wanted to go interplanetary in my current game, but Maneuver nodes aren't working properly for me for interplanetary maneuvers. They frequently disappear and delete themselves, or "drift". I've given up on it until those issues are fixed.

[KerikBalm]

17 minutes ago, Red Shirt said:

Where did you find the giant orange? My game wants needs this!

The giant orange is mars   to which I added an appropriate height offset, then an ocean. Then I played with the heightmap to identify the area near the coast (excluding everything more or less intense than a certain value)... to get a map of the "coasts", then I merged this map with the green channel in the color map to add the green-ish hue around the coasts.. to indicate primitive photosynthetic life.

I can send you the files if you want, but you need the kopernicus mod first.

10 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I think that's a great idea, though I think it should be a small planet. Maybe even a Pol/Bop type with a Gilly type moon. That would be a great stepping stone because you could ALWAYS go to it in the exact same, describable way without ever waiting for a transfer window.

Forget Gas Giant 2, I want a Kerbal Trojan!

Yea, to be stable, it should be a small planet... but I didn't start by wanted to add a trojan... I started by wanting to add a version of duna with seas... but then realized that I kind of liked duna as it was too... and I needed to find another place to put a new planet, where liquid water would make sense.... then I thought about the gameplay implications.

A dres class planetoid or smaller would be more realistic... A planet with an atmosphere would be good for gameplay because:

* It dramatically lowers dV requirements to go there

* its more interesting, and I've seen people ask for moons with atmospheres, because going interplanetary to play in another atmosphere was hard for them.

* O2 in the atmosphere is just plain fun its easier to reach than laythe. Also for those people calling turbofans and the juno useless... its one more destination to use them (I've seen people that didn't know they worked on laythe, I've also seen people that didn't know they wouldn't work on duna/eve)

I chose roughly 1/10th scale mars because:

* its well mapped, and the terrain is darn interesting (too me a least), with oceans and evidence of life... that should make it a more interesting destination to lure people out of kerbin's SOI

* its still a "small" planet at less than 1/10th kerbin's mass- but realistically its still too big to be stable for billions of years (100 million on the other hand... thats just fine). If we had L4 and L5 occupied, it would sort of raise the question of where the impactor that made the Mun came from (presuming thats the best explanation for Mun)

http://imgur.com/y0yNitv

http://imgur.com/8NeGgo9

http://i.imgur.com/2ISQFQz.png

[JoeNapalm]

 

There's so much to do -- sending manned missions to every planet may be one goal, but it's only one of many.

You can spend hundreds of hours happily doing those other things, and once you've been to a couple of planets, it's not that different a project to go to the next.

-Jn-

[Biff Space]

I have landed on all the solid bodies, and returned from all except Eve, but most of the missions I do are within Kerbins SOI. There are a few reasons for this:

I don't like time-warping through interplanetary flight. It feels less like a space program and more like a sequence of unrelated missions if I warp.

I keep checking the contracts offered, and take tempting ones in the Kerbin system to make funds.

I prefer to rotate crews on bases and orbital stations, for role-play reasons.

I like going back to finish a mission which I might have started weeks ago, because it gives a sense of years passing to cross great distances, which also helps the feeling of realism/immersion.

It also varies with what mods I am using. In 1.0.5 I started using KIS (awesome!), which meant that I was able to do new stuff on familiar moons, so I concentrated more on Minmus, where it is fun to EVA. I then did another 1.0.5 career game with the Outer Planets mod (awesome!), and just did some long range exploring - this time I did warp through long periods of time (which confirmed to me that I don't like doing it.)

Just recently I have started using the Planetary Base parts pack (awesome!), so again the focus has been back to Mun/Minmus.

But the lack of stock support was a barrier to interplanetary travel when I first started. (I was OK with googling for tutorials and transfer window calculators, so it wasn't a major problem, but I do think it is odd that there is so little support for it in the stock game. KER, KAC, and the transfer window planner make interplanetary missions fun IMHO.)

[Docsprock]

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

44 minutes ago, Hrv123 said:

 

EDIT: KSP vanilla is sooooooo easy, so little delta v needed to move around that is to easy and then boring, you can send rockets with starting first couple tech one way to Duna easy. Dont anybody educate them self with Scot Manley videos So I cant really understand people who cant go interplanetary in vanilla O_o

 

Im very impressed that all of KSP is so easy for you. I do not believe I have ever watched a Scott Manley video. I did not know it was required to enjoy this game. Besides, I never said I 'cant' go interplanetary, it is extremely difficult without the use of mods or math. And there is no payoff. So, it is more of a lack of desire than anything.

I also have no idea how KerikBalms post is nested in there?

[Jovus]

I have played this game since 0.23 (Not as long as many, but long enough.) I have landed probes on Duna (and Ike) once, and done nothing else interplanetary unless a quick jaunt out for solar science counts.

I play with KER and KAC, so finding and utilizing transfer windows is no trouble for me.

Why haven't I gone further, done more?

First, I semi-like playing in career mode. I like the progressive unlocks, and I like being constrained by money. At the same time, I generally find the contract system to be a grind (though I haven't experienced it much past 0.90).

Second, I always have grand plans. I want an orbital station with regular resupply runs (using TAC-LS) from my spaceplane of choice. I want a Mun fuel refinery and orbital station (also with resupply runs). I play with RemoteTech a lot, so I also want strong com systems in the Kerbin system and also around Duna, Eve, and Jool. I want to transition to primarily using spaceplanes, with rockets only for putting up massive payloads that won't easily fit in cargo bays. You get the idea.

Third, I tend to play KSP off-and-on. I play a lot of KSP, but I get tired of it and do other things/play other games.

Fourth, I like mod-sets. One run I've had was with KSP Interstellar. Then one on RSS (which I'll go back to when I get my real computer back). So on and so forth.

So, as a whole, I tend to get bogged down a bit in the home system, then take a small break after my fifth or tenth or fiftieth orbital rendezvous, and then SQUAD comes out with a new release and I just chuck it all and start over again.

If we didn't have another feature-rich release for about a year or so, I'd probably actually finish some of my plans. As it is, I'll be restarting everything for 1.2, of course, because Antennae! etc.

[Van Disaster]

Been to most places once - there's not really enough difference between them and Kerbin to bother going back. I occasionally hyperedit a plane to Laythe just to fly around with Jool up there in the sky, but that's only a little diversion & not really enough to bother getting a plane there properly again. I actually like plotting transfers by hand ( I'll let MJ do the actual burn ) as long as I've got a decent window, which is not something I feel like calculating myself; I'll agree with needing a transfer window being a big damper on the "hey, I feel like building a spacecraft!" impulsiveness which going to things local to Kerbin can fulfill, even if as has been said you need less of a spacecraft to go some places.

What I should do is go to asteroids a bit more given how local they are to Kerbin, but I always forget about those things...

Rendesvous - I like planning those too, but only with the readout from MJ's planner, trying to see how close your intercept is from the stock orbit is just horrible. Docking I use SmartASS for, but that's usually because I find I haven't balanced my RCS properly & SAS isn't keeping my craft pointing where I want. SmartASS's ability to keep it oriented with a docking port is really lovely anyway.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Van Disaster

[Norcalplanner]

Going interplanetary requires a level of motivation and time investment that many people simply don't have for a game. Also, the forum suffers from self-selection bias and is therefore not a statistically valid sample of the KSP player base.

[JoeNapalm]

7 minutes ago, Norcalplanner said:

Going interplanetary requires a level of motivation and time investment that many people simply don't have for a game. Also, the forum suffers from self-selection bias and is therefore not a statistically valid sample of the KSP player base.

If we're going by the entire KSP player base, I'd wager that maybe half reach orbit.

Of those that do not, half of them own the game and never play it, the other half give up within a short period of trying to make stable orbit with the same rocket going straight up a few times.

-Jn-

[KerikBalm]

Whew... I thought you were mocking me with satire... but that was a real post, and my names inclusion was a mistake

I've watched scott manley videos, but just for entertainment, I've figured that stuff out on my own... well I may have watched his shuttle videos and had certain things in the back of my mind when I got around to making one in 1.0 (where I did much better on my first attempt that he did... my first attempt was more or less successfull, although at the limits of controlability).

It is true that its relatively easy to move around in vanilla... dV requirements are about 1/3 of that in RSS. Single stage to Eeloo and back with no refueling used to be a thing. Single stage to laythe and backis sort of a thing... definitely if you use ISRU. RSS seems like hard mode... because... well its about as hard as real life... more eccentric and inclined orbits, much more dV, only marginal performance increases (vanilla parts are pretty weak compared to real life, in most cases).

A dV readout like KER should be integrated. Maybe KSPpedia can at least have a table showing phase angles for hohmann transfers, and a simple dV map, without going full KAC (which I've never used).

Aside from KSPedia dV maps and transfer angle guides... and a dV readout... if you can land on Mun, you can land on Duna. Put a planet at L4/L5, and the transfer window concerns go away... and the dV is the same as what a player would already have done to go to Mun (if the planet has an atmosphere for aerobraking, or is sufficiently less massive than Mun).

 

My pseudo-mars training planet is pretty easy to get to and return from... althoug the transfers aren't very fast. Basically you set up a maneuver to eject retrograde from kerbin's orbit, so that your sun centric perapsis drops but PE stays the same... just add on a little more dV to lower Pe enough so that when you swing by apoapsis again, "Micromus" (I've named it that as it would appear smaller and fainter than Minimus to a kerbal observer) is there to greet you... -> you eject retrograde and drag the vector until you get an encounter.

As its 60 degrees ahead, such a transfer takes 300/360ths ->5/6ths of a kerbal year return(ejecting prograde instead of retrograde) would take 7/6ths of a kerbal year... not very fast, but no transfer windows. (faster but higher dV trajectories exist... lower dV and significantly longer trajectories exist as well)

Its super easy to return from with airbreathing engines due to the low orbital velocity... but such a close planet with atmospheric O2 may make laythe seem boring in comparison and not worth the effort to reach... which would be a shame... I love having a surface hab on a laythe beach with a SSTO parked nearby with massive Jool just hanging there in the sky... its just a warm feeling inside...