Request for a 1.1 Related Subsection

[ZooNamedGames]

I feel that the KSP General Discussions section has been recently overflown with constant negative threads about 1.1.2, whether they contain rants of their problems or people ranting of others ranting, regardless I feel that it needs a better place. It's constant negativity I'd rather not look at and it also steals from other legitiment KSP GD threads not about 1.1. 

I feel that reviving the 1.1 support section would do perfectly. As it gets their problems proper support and also a better place for them.

[Red Iron Crown]

Er, 1.1 is the current version now. The regular support forums are the place to get support, and honestly I don't think support is what most of the negative people are after. The prerelease forum was specifically to concentrate discussion of the version in testing (and allow those who didn't have access an easy way to avoid it), none of that applies anymore.

Some people are negative, it's true, but that's not against the rules in and of itself. Maybe you could start a thread about the positive things in 1.1 if you'd like a more pleasant read.

[ZooNamedGames]

4 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Er, 1.1 is the current version now. The regular support forums are the place to get support, and honestly I don't think support is what most of the negative people are after. The prerelease forum was specifically to concentrate discussion of the version in testing (and allow those who didn't have access an easy way to avoid it), none of that applies anymore.

Some people are negative, it's true, but that's not against the rules in and of itself. Maybe you could start a thread about the positive things in 1.1 if you'd like a more pleasant read.

Well they need a dedicated place for bug reports and tbh many need to be moved there. Or at least a better place.

Issue is I've tried that and everything becomes negative. The entire section has become very very negative, which is not pleasant to see and read.

[Deddly]

@ZooNamedGames, I think the problem is that most users who are being negative have a legitimate reason to be upset, because the part of the game that they are experiencing trouble with is - for them - gamebreaking. Judging by the number of hours a lot of people claim to have played and for how many years they have been playing, it would seem that KSP is an important part of their lives. They were extremely excited about the prospect of the performance increase in 1.1, only to be disappointed because of their personal experience now that they have it. 

So what to do? Of course, they want to voice their complaints and they want others to add their voices in support of their complaints. I don't like the negativity either, and most of the complaints could be still voiced but in a constructive way, but I think it is only fair that we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it is just frustration that is driving their words. Who can deny that the bugs they are facing must be frustrating? We can look past that, it will hopefully soon pass when the big issues are fixed.

Your suggestion sounds like you would like something along the lines of a "complaints" or "Issues" section on the forum, which would overlap with the existing support sections, and I'm not sure that would encourage people to be more positive.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Deddly

[ZooNamedGames]

6 hours ago, Deddly said:

@ZooNamedGames, I think the problem is that most users who are being negative have a legitimate reason to be upset, because the part of the game that they are experiencing trouble with is - for them - gamebreaking. Judging by the number of hours a lot of people claim to have played and for how many years they have been playing, it would seem that KSP is an important part of their lives. They were extremely excited about the prospect of the performance increase in 1.1, only to be disappointed because of their personal experience now that they have it. 

So what to do? Of course, they want to voice their complaints and they want others to add their voices in support of their complaints. I don't like the negativity either, and most of the complaints could be still voiced but in a constructive way, but I think it is only fair that we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it is just frustration that is driving their words. Who can deny that the bugs they are facing must be frustrating? We can look past that, it will hopefully soon pass when the big issues are fixed.

Your suggestion sounds like you would like something along the lines of a "complaints" or "Issues" section on the forum, which would overlap with the existing support sections, and I'm not sure that would encourage people to be more positive.

If they belong under support them move them there. But they don't want to help, they want to complain so they DONT belong there. So they need someplace else other than the GD section. It belongs someplace else since I do not want to see constant complaint and negativity every day, my life sucks enough as is and the forum is a place for me to retreat from the negativity of life.

[Guest]

A true and wise leader is able to overcome negativity and respond with a clear and level head. It's not necessarily productive to be positive and cheerful all the time, nor is it productive to be overly negative. Often times when someone is frustrated and angry, they just want to vent, and they lose perspective. Most of the time the correct response to this type of behavior is no response. Even if you try to give a clear level headed response, you are not going to see immediate positive results. That's where patience, wisdom, and leadership come into play. The ability to see past the knee jerk negative reactions. It's kinda like planting a seed. Give it the right amount of light and water, and it'll grow in time. But if you keep drowning it, looking for it to grow right now, it ain't gonna work. I can speak from experience, because I still struggle with it every single day, and likely will until the day I die. Once my temper boils over, I lose all ability to control my mouth. So, in summary, yeah, maybe moving these types of posts to another subforum would help, maybe it wouldn't. But, ultimately, it's up to you to keep your own cool and either choose to ignore the negativity or do your best to plant a positive "seed" and have the patience to watch it grow.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 hour ago, Otis said:

A true and wise leader is able to overcome negativity and respond with a clear and level head. It's not necessarily productive to be positive and cheerful all the time, nor is it productive to be overly negative. Often times when someone is frustrated and angry, they just want to vent, and they lose perspective. Most of the time the correct response to this type of behavior is no response. Even if you try to give a clear level headed response, you are not going to see immediate positive results. That's where patience, wisdom, and leadership come into play. The ability to see past the knee jerk negative reactions. It's kinda like planting a seed. Give it the right amount of light and water, and it'll grow in time. But if you keep drowning it, looking for it to grow right now, it ain't gonna work. I can speak from experience, because I still struggle with it every single day, and likely will until the day I die. Once my temper boils over, I lose all ability to control my mouth. So, in summary, yeah, maybe moving these types of posts to another subforum would help, maybe it wouldn't. But, ultimately, it's up to you to keep your own cool and either choose to ignore the negativity or do your best to plant a positive "seed" and have the patience to watch it grow.

But I am no leader, and I am not attempting to create a community. I am looking for a place at the end of the day to talk about your adventures on a video game about little green men and I don't want to see others complaints and their negativity seep into one of my only true "happy" places.

Im ok with venting- just please put it somewhere where I don't often frequent.

[Deddly]

4 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Im ok with venting- just please put it somewhere where I don't often frequent.

Perhaps a "feedback" section might work? Otherwise, KSP Discussion really seems like the right place to post these messages, if they have to be posted at all. Perhaps I could suggest sticking to the other parts of the forum, like the mission report pages, until the big bugs have been dealt with, and KSP discussion will be back to normal again. Either that or try to avoid the temptation to open a thread if the title looks negative.

[ZooNamedGames]

17 minutes ago, Deddly said:

Perhaps a "feedback" section might work? Otherwise, KSP Discussion really seems like the right place to post these messages, if they have to be posted at all. Perhaps I could suggest sticking to the other parts of the forum, like the mission report pages, until the big bugs have been dealt with, and KSP discussion will be back to normal again. Either that or try to avoid the temptation to open a thread if the title looks negative.

That would work, as long as it is filled with both positive and negative since as another moderator mentioned having a "negative only" subsection would lead to no one viewing it and then they're hate being wasted since its for not (or worse, to get attention they post elsewhere) and the anger from that section leaks to others so that can't happen.

But if the subsection has both positive and negative threads and is worth viewing then that would work, I could simply not view the section and avoid being made "upset", they can speak their thoughts and get attention for them as well as vent (within the already pre-established forum rules) whilst cleaning the GD section!

The Feedback section would be more for experiences and or thoughts and comments, they wouldn't have any suggestions (not for Suggestions section) and also not after support (not for any of the technical support sections). They would include any rants, venting threads or anything else that does not fit under either of the two umbrellas already provided.

So I love that idea.

[Vanamonde]

People have the right to be negative, as long as it doesn't actually break forum rules. No one is obligated to read those threads and posts, though. 

[RA3236]

@ZooNamedGames at least this isn't the Minecraft Forums. There aren't many people breaking rules and purposely being rude here.

(BTW My opinion of the MC Forums is biased because of here)

[ZooNamedGames]

2 hours ago, RA3236 said:

@ZooNamedGames at least this isn't the Minecraft Forums. There aren't many people breaking rules and purposely being rude here.

(BTW My opinion of the MC Forums is biased because of here)

Fair point.

[adsii1970]

I, too, have noticed a change in the overall forum and I am not sure I like it. Yesterday I read both threads about the recent controversy surrounding CKAN and was horrified and at the same time, totally disgusted with what I was seeing. There were some modders that had the attitude that if you use CKAN, then somehow you are not smart enough to play KSP. Then there were those modders that insisted that many people are too dumb to understand how KSP works and that if they cannot figure out how to manually install mods, then they should either just play the game vanilla or don't play it at all. It was really disheartening and at the same time, a turn off about this forum for me.

I have seen the same name-calling and assertions made about those who play with MechJeb and to be honest, I was very vocal about my feelings - Kerbal Space Program is a stand-alone game that is basically a big sandbox full of neat and shiny parts.  It is up to the individual user to define how they want to play the game, then simply do it. Mods, for whatever reasons, are more akin to tools. Sure, you do not absolutely need tools to have a garden but it sure makes it easier, or more rewarding, etc. So I am very careful on the forum to nurture and encourage the novice player as well as the seasoned player who simply enjoys their game a bit differently than I do. As that great painter on National Public Broadcasting used to say, "it's your world, and maybe here you see a happy tree..." so go with whatever vision you have for KSP and most of all, never, never tell someone that because they use this mod, they use that mod, or that if they do not understand how the program works, then somehow they are unworthy to even have the program downloaded on their computer.

On 6/14/2016 at 9:54 PM, Vanamonde said:

People have the right to be negative, as long as it doesn't actually break forum rules. No one is obligated to read those threads and posts, though. 

Yes, Vanamonde, they do have the right to be negative. However, they also should *ideally* not make broad comments as I have seen on the forum for the last six months. I read in one of the forum support threads (and I do not remember which one, to be honest with you), where someone actually said they hated newbies because they do not know how to ask questions. To keep from getting another infraction, I simply closed out Firefox (yeah, this preference has even been trashed on the forum), got up from my desk, and folded a basket of laundry. At some point or other, we were all newbies once. I think the point that @ZooNamedGames was making is that the level of hostility and abuse of the community by a few hot-headed and opinionated forum members is beginning to be over the top. With that assessment I will have to agree. About the only areas of the forum this happens in are the modded and unmodded support threads, the current threads about CKAN, and a few other support threads. I've been playing KSP now since .22 and I STILL find myself visiting the support forums to find answers to problems or ways to perform certain maneuvers manually. It is disheartening to find a thread that appears to be answering my question and as I read through the thread, find comments from "experienced" users that belittle the original poster or those who have genuinely offered advice to help. It seems to be a growing thing on the forum since the release of 1.1.  

On 6/14/2016 at 9:58 AM, Otis said:

A true and wise leader is able to overcome negativity and respond with a clear and level head. It's not necessarily productive to be positive and cheerful all the time, nor is it productive to be overly negative. Often times when someone is frustrated and angry, they just want to vent, and they lose perspective. Most of the time the correct response to this type of behavior is no response.

So, in summary, yeah, maybe moving these types of posts to another subforum would help, maybe it wouldn't. But, ultimately, it's up to you to keep your own cool and either choose to ignore the negativity or do your best to plant a positive "seed" and have the patience to watch it grow.

[edited by adsii1970 for content]

Yes, this is true. It is why when I was reading the CKAN Discussion Thread (continued) and after the dozen few pages, the insults began flying. As I mentioned, I did walk away from the forum. NO, it is not practical nor possible, and probably not even desirable to be cheerful all the time. However, there is enough hostility and rudeness in real life that I try to show a little bit of compassion and respect when dealing even with the most novice KSP forum/player. I think there has only been about five posts of mine that have been remotely rude, and one was aimed at a guy complaining about all the mods broken with the 1.0 (Beta than ever!) release. He was so critical, so rude, and well, my last post was that if he didn't want to wait for the developers to patch the game and address the bugs, Steam was having a sale on Goat Farmer Simulator (at that time, it was on sale).

Venting can be done in a number of ways. Making blanket statements that put other forum members down, that is demeaning, or whatever other form of veiled personal attack you wish to call it. Venting can be done in a way that is creative and therapeutic. 

I do not think moving them to a sub-forum will help. Stricter enforcement of forum rules won't work as it is a big forum and there are many different nationalities and many people simply do not understand the basics of the English language or chat room/messaging basics. What would make a difference is the average forum member treating others the way they'd want to be treated...even if it is only in the written word.

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

...the level of hostility and abuse of the community by a few hot-headed and opinionated forum members is beginning to be over the top.

Sounds bad, @adsii1970! You can make a real difference by doing two things. Firstly, report such posts by clicking on the little flag symbol. Secondly, keep being positive yourself and praising others who are saying kind things.

[adsii1970]

Just now, Deddly said:

Sounds bad, @adsii1970! You can make a real difference by doing two things. Firstly, report such posts by clicking on the little flag symbol. Secondly, keep being positive yourself and praising others who are saying kind things.

Please do not think what I am about to say is over the top or rude - it may be a bit snippy, however. I've been a forum member for a while and even endured the great forum purge in 2012... and with someone that has a wheel barrel full of infractions myself, i don't report threads until they get to the point of direct personal attacks; plus (unfortunately) making generalized insulting statements such as "anyone that uses CKAN and doesn't know how to manually install mods has no business playing KSP" technically DOES NOT violate the forum rules, as inappropriate as it may be.

I've been positive in the past and have, on a few occasions, even contributed to the positive vibes thread someone had created on this forum. The problem is that there are those who want all the "reliability" of a large company software program and a game that can be 100% customized. They are very vocal about their desires for KSP and related mods, and even begin to become intolerant towards anyone that does not share their vision...

There are times I miss the old, comfortable, cooperative, helpful, supportive, and relaxed feeling the forum had prior to the 1.1 release.

[Deddly]

@adsii1970, Oh I don't know though. I've seen many comments in that style removed by the moderators. Maybe we could get some input from someone like @Red Iron Crown, I'm sure he can give us some advice if he's available

[adsii1970]

He was one, along with Vandemonde and DuoDex trying to calm people down... there's no easy answer to this problem with the exception of people just - well, for the lack of a better phrase - be more considerate of others and quit wholesale painting and characterization of forum/KSP users...

 

[Deddly]

Agreed. And that is actually a skill that can be learned, given time, patience and a little encouragement along the way.

[Red Iron Crown]

I think your reminiscing about the forum gone by is a bit rose-colored. There have *always* been the negative types, there have *always* been trolls, it's part of being a public internet community unfortunately.

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, Red Iron Crown said:

I think your reminiscing about the forum gone by is a bit rose-colored. There have *always* been the negative types, there have *always* been trolls, it's part of being a public internet community unfortunately.

Hahaha, no, I received my fair share of infractions and warnings under the old forum, too. With the exception of the Rocket Builder's thread, there just didn't seem to be this kind of level of - disgruntlement - that exists now. I also believe it is because of what many refer to as the "online persona phenomenon" where some simply do not bother to think how their on-line attitudes will appear to others.

[Red Iron Crown]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with that assessment. It doesn't seem particularly worse lately than at any other time when something contentious is being discussed, tbh.

[adsii1970]

Maybe you're right. All I know is that some of the inferences to those who use CKAN rather than installing mods themselves was just a bit over the top, as well as those who were complaining that unless you were a modder, you had no reason to be heard in the debate. Statements such as that as just as bad as the comments about serious KSP players don't use MechJeb. They are counter-productive and at the least, prepare the soil for inflammatory responses...

[ZooNamedGames]

On June 27, 2016 at 0:19 PM, Red Iron Crown said:

I think your reminiscing about the forum gone by is a bit rose-colored. There have *always* been the negative types, there have *always* been trolls, it's part of being a public internet community unfortunately.

It has always had issues, but there was a generally nicer feel to the forum. More welcoming. I contribute that to the members themselves, as I've said before a new less tolerant community has replaced the old more understanding and respectful members. 

Members of my age are becoming a rare breed sadly, we're becoming steadily more rare.

[Snark]

Gotta agree with Red Iron Crown on this one-- I really don't see that it's gotten particularly nastier.  I've been on the KSP forums for a couple of years now-- first as a lurker, then as a frequent poster, then as a moderator-- and the mix seems to me to be about the same that it always has been.  My personal taxonomy, in descending order of goodness:

1. A small number of "rock stars" who are incredibly helpful and patient, and really go above and beyond
2. The overwhelming majority of users, who are really nice, thoughtful people who simply enjoy the forums and try to help folks when they can
3. A substantial minority of newbies who may seem gauche or tactless to old hands, but it's really just bull-in-a-china-shop cluelessness-- no point in getting upset about it
4. A small number of people who have some issues (e.g. are habitually grouchy and rude, or excessively touchy, etc.) but relatively harmless, and generally color inside the lines (though they may push the boundaries sometimes)
5. A tiny number of actual trolls and similar toxic types (but that's what we mods are for).

Those categories have always been there, and seem to me to be in about the same frequency that they've always been (at least, over the last couple of years I've been looking at the forums).  New people arrive, old people occasionally drop out, but the mix seems relatively consistent over time.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 hour ago, Snark said:

Gotta agree with Red Iron Crown on this one-- I really don't see that it's gotten particularly nastier.  I've been on the KSP forums for a couple of years now-- first as a lurker, then as a frequent poster, then as a moderator-- and the mix seems to me to be about the same that it always has been.  My personal taxonomy, in descending order of goodness:

1. A small number of "rock stars" who are incredibly helpful and patient, and really go above and beyond
2. The overwhelming majority of users, who are really nice, thoughtful people who simply enjoy the forums and try to help folks when they can
3. A substantial minority of newbies who may seem gauche or tactless to old hands, but it's really just bull-in-a-china-shop cluelessness-- no point in getting upset about it
4. A small number of people who have some issues (e.g. are habitually grouchy and rude, or excessively touchy, etc.) but relatively harmless, and generally color inside the lines (though they may push the boundaries sometimes)
5. A tiny number of actual trolls and similar toxic types (but that's what we mods are for).

Those categories have always been there, and seem to me to be in about the same frequency that they've always been (at least, over the last couple of years I've been looking at the forums).  New people arrive, old people occasionally drop out, but the mix seems relatively consistent over time.

However KSP has lost its shine and has gotten the attention of other users who aren't as nice.

Originally it was only of interest of those who were interested in the game itself. Now newer communities are moving in, those from shooter games or other major steam titles. They don't want to play through KSP's steep learning curve, they want to land on the mun within 20 minutes of play and any issues are the games fault and not their own. They don't want to enjoy KSP's fun in failure, they just want to win.