What new parts should they add?

[linuxgurugamer]

Well, if you feel so strongly, then go ahead and make the parts as a mod and then submit it to Squad for possible inclusion

[Alshain]

37 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Well, if you feel so strongly, then go ahead and make the parts as a mod and then submit it to Squad for possible inclusion

I believe the OP posted here because he wanted Squad to consider a stock option. Mods that do this already exist.

[DDE]

2 hours ago, Alshain said:

I believe the OP posted here because he wanted Squad to consider a stock option. Mods that do this already exist.

Yes. No. From what I've seen, those mods seem to lack the full capability I'm hinting at (compact stowage before deployment, work as fins).

3 hours ago, Alshain said:

Grid fins simply provide drag at one end of the craft to keep it righted.

Wrong. Many grid fin systems are equipped with actuators; it seems to be the case for Falcon 9R.

[Rdivine]

4 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Still not needed, and, even acknowledging they could be useful, should still be a mod, not stock

Mods are not part of the stock game, the game that most new players play. Mods are simply community creations, and claiming that it isn't relevant because there are mods that do such a function is irrelevant.

Yes, it is not essential in landings, flight, interplanetary trips etc.

But, flexibility in design is also another consideration. Think about how many times your rocket did a backflip during accent, or your payloads landing upside down, just because there isn't enough drag, and there isn't enough space to stow a wing in the fairing. Grid fins make sense in providing a flight control surface that can be stowed and/or provide drag to a vessel to keep it in the correct orientation.

Could you also explain why it should still be a mod even though it is useful? I would love to hear your reason.

The decision to take the suggestion, or not, is up to SQUAD for what they think feels best for the game  

 

EDIT: A quick search with CKAN and curse.com showed that there are no v1.1 mods that provide grid fins.  LazTek's SpaceX pack has them, but they are in 0.90. There are no mods that have this function right now.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Rdivine

[Mjarf]

How about Kerbal parachutes? It would be extremely useful for those instances when the crafts parachute fails, you could just go EVA and pop the Kerbal parachute. No need to add new tanks for liquid fuel, just implement the fuel switch mod, I use it all the time, makes for some ridiculous delta-v with NERV's. 

[mk1980]

- large 2.5 meter SRB

- a 2.5 meter version of the rapier engine for big spaceplanes (basically the same as 4 "normal" rapiers merged into one)

- a 2.5 meter version of the nuclear engine (4 merged into 1)

- a set of 1.25m to 0.625m multi adapters (bi/tri/quad coupler - same layout as as the 2.5 to 1.25m bi/tri/quad coupler, but on a smaller scale)

- a 2.5m diameter LF only tank

[pandaman]

I'd certainly like to see them in stock.  

Probably two sizes would be enough, so not a lot of extra stuff cluttering the part menu, and they would add extra options, capabilities and gameply possibilities, which is never a bad thing. 

[linuxgurugamer]

4 hours ago, Rdivine said:

Could you also explain why it should still be a mod even though it is useful? I would love to hear your reason.

Merely being useful does not mean it is required.  There are dozens of mods which are useful, but which aren't and shouldn't be stock.  You don't need them, they aren't necessary to the game, although they enhance the game.  The fact that there are some parts in the stock which you don't consider essential is not a reason to include other parts which you do considder essential.

Look at how many mods people have stated "this should be stock".  No offense, but you are just another person saying the same thing

Edited June 13, 2016 by linuxgurugamer

[lrd.Helmet]

I'd love to have them in stock. Regardless whether they're useful or not. A lot of real life rockets have them (soyuz, F9, N1, even the friggin' MOAB has them) and it would certainly be pretty awesome to have something that resembles them in game.

I only have one concern though. How I vision them ingame they might be the always go to solution to flipping rockets, which may lead to bad rocket design.

[EpicSpaceTroll139]

41 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Merely being useful does not mean it is required.  There are dozens of mods which are useful, but which aren't and shouldn't be stock.  You don't need them, they aren't necessary to the game, although they enhance the game.  The fact that there are some parts in the stock which you don't consider essential is not a reason to include other parts which you do considder essential.

Look at how many mods people have stated "this should be stock".  No offense, but you are just another person saying the same thing

If you read a bit further you would notice that he said there are no v.1.1 mods that provide grid fins.  This is putting aside that the OP never was saying that a specific mod should be added to stock.

DDE suggested that something be added to the game. This is the suggestions & development section. I don't see the problem. The whole point of the S&D section is that there will be a lot of suggestions for stuff that may or may not be a mod. I don't see the problem here?

Edited June 13, 2016 by EpicSpaceTroll139
Forgot a line

[Rdivine]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Merely being useful does not mean it is required.  There are dozens of mods which are useful, but which aren't and shouldn't be stock.  You don't need them, they aren't necessary to the game, although they enhance the game.  The fact that there are some parts in the stock which you don't consider essential is not a reason to include other parts which you do considder essential.

Look at how many mods people have stated "this should be stock".  No offense, but you are just another person saying the same thing

1. "Merely being useful does not mean it is required."

- Science Archives are not required for KSP to function, but it's useful. Map View is not required for KSP to function, but it's useful. It is irrelevant to say that only required features should be stock, because that's akin to telling SQUAD that they are wasting their time on update 1.2. As i reiterate, it is nice to have the function as " Grid fins make sense in providing a flight control surface that can be stowed and/or provide drag to a vessel to keep it in the correct orientation. "

2. "You don't need them, they aren't necessary to the game, although they enhance the game."

-Again, we are looking for improvements to the game.

User friendliness isn't necessary, but it's nice to have it. Just look at point 1.

3. "The fact that there are some parts in the stock (game) which you don't consider essential is not a reason to include other parts which you do considder essential."

- I did not, at any point of my posts did i imply/state that i consider the aerodynamic parts to be "not essential".

- Your statement is based on the presumption that i think Grid Fins can replace the "non-essential" aerodynamic parts. You are wrong. My view is that the current aerodynamic parts cannot serve as a substitute/replace the function of Grid Fins. ( In that no winglets can be stowed and also provide drag and control.)

As i pointed out in my previous post, Grid Fins are not essential, but makes the game nicer to play, and it being in stock allows for beginners/ new ksp players to use it as well.

4. "Look at how many mods people have stated "this should be stock"."

-I wholeheartedly agree with you that many people have stated "this should be stock" about many mods. However, is there a mod for grid fins?

My previous post included  "EDIT: A quick search with CKAN and curse.com showed that there are no v1.1 mods that provide grid fins.  LazTek's SpaceX pack has them, but they are in 0.90. There are no mods that have this function right now. "

If you can find a post, feel free to correct me and tell me at the same time, because i'd love to use it.

5. "No offense, but you are just another person saying the same thing"

-No offense taken, but i'm not "saying the same thing". Look at point 4. No mods that serve this function exist right now.

Here's why you should not suggest "mods that do this already exist" or "mods can replace this".

"Mods are not part of the stock game, the game that most new players play. Mods are simply community creations."

"Mods are not hardwired into the game. They take time to update. They may have problems with other mods."

[Alshain]

8 hours ago, DDE said:

Yes. No. From what I've seen, those mods seem to lack the full capability I'm hinting at (compact stowage before deployment, work as fins).

Maybe you should elaborate on what it is you want?  When you say 'compact stowage before deployment', the Kerbonov grid fins stow in similar to the stock air brakes and the act as a control surface.  I'm not trying to dissuade from a stock implementation, but hopefully that might get you what you want for now.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alshain

[DDE]

1 hour ago, Alshain said:

Maybe you should elaborate on what it is you want?  When you say 'compact stowage before deployment', the Kerbonov grid fins stow in similar to the stock air brakes and the act as a control surface.  I'm not trying to dissuade from a stock implementation, but hopefully that might get you what you want for now.

Nope, just tested them. Those are just a modded fin, their "deployment" (at least in the fan-patched version) is similar to other fins - they all just turn in one direction.

Whereas I'm talking about this:

Somebody here expressed concerns over OPness. These belong pretty high up the tech tree. They were pretty innovative to Sergei Korolev back in the day.

[kunok]

The really good thing about grid fins, IIRC, is that they are a good option both in subsonic and supersonic regimes.

[linuxgurugamer]

7 hours ago, Rdivine said:

4. "Look at how many mods people have stated "this should be stock"."

-I wholeheartedly agree with you that many people have stated "this should be stock" about many mods. However, is there a mod for grid fins?

My previous post included  "EDIT: A quick search with CKAN and curse.com showed that there are no v1.1 mods that provide grid fins.  LazTek's SpaceX pack has them, but they are in 0.90. There are no mods that have this function right now. "

If you can find a post, feel free to correct me and tell me at the same time, because i'd love to use it.

5. "No offense, but you are just another person saying the same thing"

-No offense taken, but i'm not "saying the same thing". Look at point 4. No mods that serve this function exist right now.

Here you go.  this was posted on June 1, so I assume it is for 1.1.2.  It has other stuff, and also includes grid fins.  Took about 2 minutes to find:

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by linuxgurugamer

[linuxgurugamer]

Also, Sounding Rockets, which IS current, has at least 3 different sizes of grid fins

 

[Rdivine]

3 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Here you go.  this was posted on June 1, so I assume it is for 1.1.2.  It has other stuff, and also includes grid fins.  Took about 2 minutes to find:

 

 

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Also, Sounding Rockets, which IS current, has at least 3 different sizes of grid fins

 

Hi, i'm looking for stand-alone grid fin mods, without all those clunky capsules that come with it  

[Enceos]

2 hours ago, Rdivine said:

 

Hi, i'm looking for stand-alone grid fin mods, without all those clunky capsules that come with it  

Lol, keep looking =D

Or just delete the unwanted parts and make it stand-alone for yourself.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Enceos

[evileye.x]

SXT has grid fins for N1

[DDE]

3 hours ago, Enceos said:

Or just delete the unwanted parts and make it stand-alone for yourself.

Done.

7 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Also, Sounding Rockets, which IS current, has at least 3 different sizes of grid fins

 

I was unaware that this pack has been significantly expanded compared to its original form. The fins appear to be right on the money in size and functionality. I was kinda hoping for a staging-triggered deployment, but I understand that it's not easily implemented outside stock modules; I'll make do with SmartParts.

[kBob]

16 hours ago, DDE said:

 

 

...

Somebody here expressed concerns over OPness. These belong pretty high up the tech tree. They were pretty innovative to Sergei Korolev back in the day.

So I looked them up and see they were designed in the 50's and in use in the 70's so you wouldn't want them too high up the tech tree, maybe at around the time when contracts for orbital satellites comes to play or about the same time where Mun rockets become reasonably doable.  Anyway they sound like they would be a very useful addition to stock parts...for something I'd never heard of before  .

For anyone wondering about grid fins and what they do this was the best discussion I found (though it's specifically about weapons all the info about how they work, limitations etc. is applicable to general rocket use).

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, kBob said:

For anyone wondering about grid fins and what they do this was the best discussion I found (though it's specifically about weapons all the info about how they work, limitations etc. is applicable to general rocket use).

@kBob Thanks for that link, it was a fascinating read

[DaMachinator]

I find that the Sounding Rockets grid fins do not perform very well on my cruise missiles, but I'm probably abusing them...

Reading the article linked above reveals that I was probably in the speed region where they are least effective.

Edited June 14, 2016 by DaMachinator

[Vaporized Steel]

My thoughts are, what is the point?

We have airbrakes! They can be used for the same purpose as grid fins.
In KSP I don't think someone would mod this because if you were to actually accurately model this you would have a single part with dozens of aerodynamics surfaces that would need alot of aerodynamic calculations to be done just on 2, 4 or more parts.

It also serves no goal whatsoever since any aerodynamic surface, airbrake or any aerodynamic part creates more then enough drag to meet the results required in the game even under FAR.
If there is going to be a grid fin, it will be a normal aibrake with á vertical and á horizontal aerodynamic property on the part for as far as aerodynamic calculation goes with a grid fin texture.
Instead of several dozen vertical/horizontal aero calculations if you were to actually model it realistically.

[Rdivine]

58 minutes ago, Vaporized Steel said:

My thoughts are, what is the point?

We have airbrakes! They can be used for the same purpose as grid fins.
In KSP I don't think someone would mod this because if you were to actually accurately model this you would have a single part with dozens of aerodynamics surfaces that would need alot of aerodynamic calculations to be done just on 2, 4 or more parts.

It also serves no goal whatsoever since any aerodynamic surface, airbrake or any aerodynamic part creates more then enough drag to meet the results required in the game even under FAR.
If there is going to be a grid fin, it will be a normal aibrake with á vertical and á horizontal aerodynamic property on the part for as far as aerodynamic calculation goes with a grid fin texture.
Instead of several dozen vertical/horizontal aero calculations if you were to actually model it realistically.

1."It also serves no goal whatsoever since any aerodynamic surface, airbrake or any aerodynamic part creates more then enough drag to meet the results required in the game even under FAR."

Keep in mind that Grid fins also provide aerodynamic control. Well, we now have fairings, and we occasionally put stuff inside them. Some of the stuff may enter, let's say, Laythe's atmosphere. We need something compact enough to store inside that provides aerodynamic stability and can be stowed inside at the same time, and that's where grid fins come in. That is the goal of grid fins. Grid fins provide a stowable aerodynamic control surface.

2."We have airbrakes! They can be used for the same purpose as grid fins."

Airbrakes cannot replace grid fins because, well, you can't control them!

3."In KSP I don't think someone would mod this because if you were to actually accurately model this you would have a single part with dozens of aerodynamics surfaces that would need alot of aerodynamic calculations to be done just on 2, 4 or more parts."

You dont have to model dozens of aerodynamic surfaces. Just average out the drag and the lift and you only need to model 1 surface. It will be indistinguishable from actually modelling all the surfaces.