Fastest aircraft possible

[He_162]

5 hours ago, Grenartia said:

In what version was that again?

Sorry. I tried KER once, didn't really like it.

1.0.4 for the 3000 m/s one, with a modded config to allow the rapiers to beat the speed limit cutoff that was there, I am currently working on new configs, I'll be lazy though so don't expect much from me, I'm on my phone right now.

[Gman_builder]

15 hours ago, Cunjo Carl said:

 

 

How are people calculating mach numbers in stock?

 

Alt+F12 / Physics / Aero / Display aero GUI

[boomchacle]

On 6/28/2016 at 8:41 AM, herbal space program said:

I am retracting this post as OP has since changed the rules and I shouldn't have stuck my nose in anyway.

could you please explain what the heck OP is anyways?

 

14 hours ago, Cunjo Carl said:

Haha, right? It's all about the style, and mine is go big! Speaking of which, not sure if I'll finish it, but here's my 112 engine version

Yes, it's crashing; no, that doesn't make it any less beautiful in my eyes.

MJ for informational makes sense, and I've just found that KER has a mach number readout as well. If you happen to have KER would you mind checking it for consistency with MJ? I'll do the same with FAR. I'm hoping we can find a way to make a level playing field- these first few .01machs will be easy to trade, but the later ones will only get more tricky.

Good luck with your little rapier rocket!

Edit: @He_162, I like your plane- it's also a nice simple design! Say, how are you measuring mach? I think mach is a good common ground for people to vie on because it's directly tied to the thrust curves, and I'm hoping to figure out if mach here is the same as mach there.

I saw that picture and a tear immediately welled in my eye. its so beautiful...

[Cunjo Carl]

3 hours ago, boomchacle said:

could you please explain what the heck OP is anyways?

I saw that picture and a tear immediately welled in my eye. its so beautiful...

OP typically refers to the person who made the first post of this particular topic "Opening Poster" , in this case @Gman_builder, the host of this challenge. It can also occasionally be used to refer to the first post of a topic "Opening Post", and the context will typically make it clear when this is the case. Finally, it's used commonly in other gaming communities to refer to something "Over Powered" in a game that was made so strong it disrupts enjoyment of the game.

The KSP forums are being actively improved to help with the many confusing acronyms. Already, on many systems, you can hover your mouse over an acronym in the forum and see the words it stands for pop up! It's a very recent addition, so I'm not too surprised if it's not working on your end just yet. Please look forward to it!

Also, I'm glad to find another enjoyer of ridiculous rockets! Smooth sailing, and good luck keeping the kraken away.

 

[Gman_builder]

I modified my Aurora aircraft and she does Mach 5.815 with no cheats and no edited config files. 

 

A note to everyone doing this challenge, FAR actually makes it easier to achieve extremely high speed. FAR replaces the stock part based drag system with a dynamic one, meaning aircraft that are shaped like a triangle will have inherently lower drag than the same craft in the stock aero. Achieving a higher speed. 

[He_162]

So the custom configs for the rapier in update 1.1.3 will be interesting.

As seen below, it has no mach heat limit, it says so in the coding. However, it has an atmospheric, and velocity curve.

So the faster you go, the less effective it will be due to the heat of the air coming into the intake.

The higher you go, the less efficient it will be in cooling the air, compressing it, and producing thrust.

 

}
        // Jet params
        atmChangeFlow = True
        useVelCurve = True
        useAtmCurve = True
        flowMultCap = 3.0
        // no mach (heat) limit
        velCurve
        {

 

So there is no real config editing needed, all you need to do is make craft more and more efficient at high altitude, and any mach speed should be reachable as long as the craft doesn't burn up as well.

 

However, I can make the turboramjet work the same way the rapier does by changing it to have no mach limit.

}
        // Jet params
        atmChangeFlow = True
        useVelCurve = True
        useAtmCurve = True
        flowMultCap = 2.0
        machLimit = 2.5
        machHeatMult = 6.0
        velCurve
        {

Edited July 1, 2016 by He_162

[He_162]

After testing, I noticed even with custom configs, the Turbo ramjet is not superior to the RAPIER, even at low altitudes, and other various times, so the best engine for this challenge is the RAPIER by far.

 

No modded config is going to help unless you increase thrust, velocity / atmospheric curves, or in other words, cheat. So modded config entries for 1.0+ shouldn't be counted.

Edited July 1, 2016 by He_162

[Gman_builder]

52 minutes ago, He_162 said:

So the custom configs for the rapier in update 1.1.3 will be interesting.

As seen below, it has no mach heat limit, it says so in the coding. However, it has an atmospheric, and velocity curve.

So the faster you go, the less effective it will be due to the heat of the air coming into the intake.

The higher you go, the less efficient it will be in cooling the air, compressing it, and producing thrust.

 

}
        // Jet params
        atmChangeFlow = True
        useVelCurve = True
        useAtmCurve = True
        flowMultCap = 3.0
        // no mach (heat) limit
        velCurve
        {

 

So there is no real config editing needed, all you need to do is make craft more and more efficient at high altitude, and any mach speed should be reachable as long as the craft doesn't burn up as well.

 

However, I can make the turboramjet work the same way the rapier does by changing it to have no mach limit.

}
        // Jet params
        atmChangeFlow = True
        useVelCurve = True
        useAtmCurve = True
        flowMultCap = 2.0
        machLimit = 2.5
        machHeatMult = 6.0
        velCurve
        {

So, a simple way to reduce the heating is to just make the fuselage out of engine pre-coolers. As they cool the engine and have fuel in them. My aircraft's engine nacelle in the bottom is made entirely of many pre-coolers and 20 rapiers. The plane weighs 111 tons on takeoff so it needed the extra punch of all those engines.

[He_162]

1 minute ago, Gman_builder said:

So, a simple way to reduce the heating is to just make the fuselage out of engine pre-coolers. As they cool the engine and have fuel in them. My aircraft's engine nacelle in the bottom is made entirely of many pre-coolers and 20 rapiers. The plane weighs 111 tons on takeoff so it needed the extra punch of all those engines.

Ahhh, well, sadly I cannot seem to get my aircraft past mach 4.9 - 5.5 range because I am not designing my aircraft efficiently, but rather in style...

 

My old craft were designed quite efficently on the other hand, so yeah, I don't think they count, but hey, it is what it is right?

Also, you may consider adding a radiator or something for your aircraft to go even faster.

[Gman_builder]

3 minutes ago, He_162 said:

Ahhh, well, sadly I cannot seem to get my aircraft past mach 4.9 - 5.5 range because I am not designing my aircraft efficiently, but rather in style...

 

My old craft were designed quite efficently on the other hand, so yeah, I don't think they count, but hey, it is what it is right?

Also, you may consider adding a radiator or something for your aircraft to go even faster.

I guess I win my own challenge then lol? I actually have several radiators on the plane and heat is not the issue. I found that RAPIERS actually produce the best thrust at those speeds at between 20,500 meters and 21,000 meters. The only way to increase speed at this point is to try to reduce drag further or reduce weight, as the engines are topped out and not overheating. I also designed my plane for looks and it is still ridiculously fast. I suggest using FAR to make your planes faster, It doesn't violate any rules of the challenge.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Gman_builder

[Cunjo Carl]

@Gman_builder Would you mind posting your Aurora's craft file? I'd love to tinker with it.

[Stoney3K]

3 hours ago, Gman_builder said:

So, a simple way to reduce the heating is to just make the fuselage out of engine pre-coolers. As they cool the engine and have fuel in them. My aircraft's engine nacelle in the bottom is made entirely of many pre-coolers and 20 rapiers. The plane weighs 111 tons on takeoff so it needed the extra punch of all those engines.

Despite the name, precoolers don't "cool" anything. They're just intakes with a built-in fuel tank.

[Gman_builder]

2 hours ago, Stoney3K said:

Despite the name, precoolers don't "cool" anything. They're just intakes with a built-in fuel tank.

well, I havnt checked in a while. But i'm 90% positive that in the description of the part it actually states that it cools the air going into your engine. Also, from my experience, engines without pre-coolers actually don't overheat as easily as engines without them.

5 hours ago, Cunjo Carl said:

@Gman_builder Would you mind posting your Aurora's craft file? I'd love to tinker with it.

Its actually on my other computer right now so I'd have to port it over via flash drive. As it is not connected to the internet. (don't ask) So it might be a day or too before I update the KerbalX page. However you can download the older, slower, version of the plane, here - https://kerbalx.com/Gman_builder/Aurora

[Stoney3K]

4 minutes ago, Gman_builder said:

well, I havnt checked in a while. But i'm 90% positive that in the description of the part it actually states that it cools the air going into your engine. Also, from my experience, engines without pre-coolers actually don't overheat as easily as engines without them.

There is nothing in the part file that does anything with the thermal (cooling) system, other than a heat animation that is tacked on all of the parts.

You can find the part file in GameData\Squad\Parts\Structural\mk1Parts, it's engineBodyRadial.cfg.

The part description and model was just updated to make it match the RAPIER better as an imitation of the real-world SABRE counterpart. I have to admit that the part description can be a bit misleading.

[Gman_builder]

26 minutes ago, Stoney3K said:

There is nothing in the part file that does anything with the thermal (cooling) system, other than a heat animation that is tacked on all of the parts.

You can find the part file in GameData\Squad\Parts\Structural\mk1Parts, it's engineBodyRadial.cfg.

The part description and model was just updated to make it match the RAPIER better as an imitation of the real-world SABRE counterpart. I have to admit that the part description can be a bit misleading.

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[Cunjo Carl]

5 hours ago, Stoney3K said:

There is nothing in the part file that does anything with the thermal (cooling) system, other than a heat animation that is tacked on all of the parts.
You can find the part file in GameData\Squad\Parts\Structural\mk1Parts, it's engineBodyRadial.cfg.
The part description and model was just updated to make it match the RAPIER better as an imitation of the real-world SABRE counterpart. I have to admit that the part description can be a bit misleading.

Ah! I was looking high and low for that part last evening. Thanks for the lead, please accept some cred for sharing the simultaneously poignant yet esoteric knowledge! I had even found the right folder, but apparently missed the name.

Fortunately, I found what I was looking for, and it's what I remember from when I stumbled across it a good while back. Even though the engine precooler doesn't have active cooling (ala v1.1+) it does have some lovely thermal stats, which can help to cool down the things its attached to. I suspect others can explain better, but I'll post the values and my comments after the //

thermalMassModifier = 1.5 //(meaning the core is 1.5 times slower to heat than expected! Nice but nothing special)
    skinMassPerArea = 2 // (high? Heat that conducts in to the part conducts in through the skin mass. Also, should bump the radiative cooling, but not the conductivity -> based on attachment port size)
    emissiveConstant = 0.95  //(this is very high, max is 1. This is the primary way it will shed heat. )
    heatConductivity = 0.24 // (twice default, so it can quickly pickup heat from its attachments)

TLDR: No "active" cooling on the precooler, but very nice radiative cooling! It's like off-brand active cooling

Edited July 1, 2016 by Cunjo Carl

[DualDesertEagle]

I've reached 1 602 m/s with my first aircraft but kept experimenting to achieve higher speeds. My second craft made it to 1 664m/s (about Mach 4.89) in one try but the engines keep overheating and exploding even with pre-coolers. It's gonna be a hard task for me to get a good ranking simply coz I'm restricted to version 1.0.2 AND can't install any mods.

[Grenartia]

11 hours ago, He_162 said:

Ahhh, well, sadly I cannot seem to get my aircraft past mach 4.9 - 5.5 range because I am not designing my aircraft efficiently, but rather in style...

 

My old craft were designed quite efficently on the other hand, so yeah, I don't think they count, but hey, it is what it is right?

Also, you may consider adding a radiator or something for your aircraft to go even faster.

Wouldn't a radiator increase drag by a lot, though?

11 hours ago, Gman_builder said:

I guess I win my own challenge then lol? I actually have several radiators on the plane and heat is not the issue. I found that RAPIERS actually produce the best thrust at those speeds at between 20,500 meters and 21,000 meters. The only way to increase speed at this point is to try to reduce drag further or reduce weight, as the engines are topped out and not overheating. I also designed my plane for looks and it is still ridiculously fast. I suggest using FAR to make your planes faster, It doesn't violate any rules of the challenge.

I need to look into getting FAR. Also, I'd hold off on the champagne if I were you, because I'm working on my Speed Demon II. Or as I like to call it, the Missile with a Kerbal in it.

7 hours ago, Stoney3K said:

Despite the name, precoolers don't "cool" anything. They're just intakes with a built-in fuel tank.

As an addition to what Carl posted below, it was discovered in the January challenge that precoolers could withstand a lot more heat than advertized (in light of the info below, this makes sense).

8 minutes ago, Cunjo Carl said:

Ah! I was looking high and low for that part last evening. Thanks for the lead, please accept some cred for sharing simultaneously the poignant yet esoteric knowledge! I had even found the right folder, but apparently missed the name.

Fortunately, I found what I was looking for, and it's what I remember from when I stumbled across it a good while back. Even though the engine precooler doesn't have active cooling (ala v1.1+) it does have some lovely thermal stats, which can help to cool down the things its attached to. I suspect others can explain better, but I'll post the values and my comments after the //

thermalMassModifier = 1.5 //(meaning the core is 1.5 times slower to heat than expected! Nice but nothing special)
    skinMassPerArea = 2 // (high? Heat that conducts in to the part conducts in through the skin mass. I don't believe this changes the rate, which is based on the attachment size)
    emissiveConstant = 0.95  //(this is very high, max is 1. This is the primary way it will shed heat. )
    heatConductivity = 0.24 // (twice default, so it can quickly pickup heat from its attachments)

TLDR: No "active" cooling on the precooler, but very nice radiative cooling! It's like off-brand active cooling

This is extremely interesting.

8 minutes ago, DualDesertEagle said:

I've reached 1 602 m/s with my first aircraft but kept experimenting to achieve higher speeds. My second craft made it to 1 664m/s (about Mach 4.89) in one try but the engines keep overheating and exploding even with pre-coolers. It's gonna be a hard task for me to get a good ranking simply coz I'm restricted to version 1.0.2 AND can't install any mods.

Why's that?

[DualDesertEagle]

Just now, Grenartia said:

Wouldn't a radiator increase drag by a lot, though?

I need to look into getting FAR. Also, I'd hold off on the champagne if I were you, because I'm working on my Speed Demon II. Or as I like to call it, the Missile with a Kerbal in it.

As an addition to what Carl posted below, it was discovered in the January challenge that precoolers could withstand a lot more heat than advertized (in light of the info below, this makes sense).

This is extremely interesting.

Why's that?

No clue, but I'm done with this crap anyway! While others can achieve speeds far beyond hypersonic I can't even get to mach 5 coz my rapier engines constantly blow up even when I leave them off and pre-accelerate to Mach 3.something using separable whiplashes!

 

Smell ya later!

[Gman_builder]

6 hours ago, DualDesertEagle said:

I've reached 1 602 m/s with my first aircraft but kept experimenting to achieve higher speeds. My second craft made it to 1 664m/s (about Mach 4.89) in one try but the engines keep overheating and exploding even with pre-coolers. It's gonna be a hard task for me to get a good ranking simply coz I'm restricted to version 1.0.2 AND can't install any mods.

That's strange, why?

[Gman_builder]

So ya, like I said, pre coolers do actually help. Also, radiators create a ton of drag and don't have too much effect on the heat of your craft. So honestly I would just remove all your radiators and replace your furthest forward part of your plane with a heatshield. It causes drag but there is virtually zero heating.

@GrenartiaIf it is a missile it violates one of the rules of the challenge. JSYK

[Grenartia]

5 hours ago, Gman_builder said:

So ya, like I said, pre coolers do actually help. Also, radiators create a ton of drag and don't have too much effect on the heat of your craft. So honestly I would just remove all your radiators and replace your furthest forward part of your plane with a heatshield. It causes drag but there is virtually zero heating.

@GrenartiaIf it is a missile it violates one of the rules of the challenge. JSYK

I tried a heatshield in the January challenge and the best I could manage was 5.6. Had problems with the wings melting off.

Nah, this will generate lift from wings. I was just repeating a tagline for the F-104 Starfighter.

[Gman_builder]

22 hours ago, Cunjo Carl said:

@Gman_builder Would you mind posting your Aurora's craft file? I'd love to tinker with it.

I updated the KerbalX page

Just now, Grenartia said:

I tried a heatshield in the January challenge and the best I could manage was 5.6. Had problems with the wings melting off.

Nah, this will generate lift from wings. I was just repeating a tagline for the F-104 Starfighter.

Ok gotchya. Well obviously the heat shields and pre-coolers help. Just saying. So if you wanna go as fast as me or faster you need some combo of those 2 things along with rapiers. I wish this game had fluid dynamics so you could literally build your own scramjets and go a lot faster than the stock engines allow. I also had an idea, I wonder if using RSS would help your planes go faster, as the atmosphere is different. Possibly allowing for more thrust and less drag at higher altitudes. I guess we'll have to wait for it to update to find out.

[Grenartia]

Well, I always use precoolers. I think my issue was I wasn't using enough Rapiers.

[Gman_builder]

Everyone I also have another thread about aircraft endurance. You can check that out here