The problem of Nitrogen on the Mun

[FreeThinker]

I would like to start a discussion about Nitrogen on the Moon, and by extension on the Kerbalized version, the Mun

The problem is Nitrogen is very rare or hard to acquire on the Moon. It is a relevant problem because Nitrogen is essential if you want to manufacture any Hypergolic Rocket fuel, oxidizer or monopropellant . There ain’t no easy accessible nitrogen deposits on the moon. Nitrogen is part of the Solar Wind deposited in the top soil but only in few part per million. Our only realistic hope of finding significant amount of Nitrogen is in encapsulated in Pyroxene and Olivine deposits that have not been liquefied near the surface (and lost their gas content). But these can only be found deep in the mantle which means they are hard to access. A 5 meter drill is certainly not going to find any significant amount of Nitrogen rock Ore.

Therefore my conclusion is the stock IRSU system which requires nitrogen to manufacture LiquidFuel, Oxidiser and Monopropelant is highly unfeasible.

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[p1t1o]

Are we talking KSP or Real Life^TM? The ISRU uses nitrogen?

There might not be much nitrogen, but there is plenty of aluminium and oxygen:

http://www.asi.org/adb/06/09/03/02/095/al-o-propellants.html

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#aluminum

 

[Bill Phil]

The majority of light atoms and molecules were pushed by the solar wind to the outer solar system. The only reason there is any on Earth (and there's not even that much, just a good amount on the surface) is because celestial objects from the outer system collided with Earth a long time ago.

[FreeThinker]

@p1t1o Yes, Aluminium and other Metals are indeed the most likely candidates for IRSU fuel production on the Moon, but the resulting  Fuel Mix has significantly lower performance and requires significant higher amount of power that the 18 kW power requirement.

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bill Phil]

2 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

@p1t1o Yes, Aluminium and other Metals are indeed the most likely candidates for IRSU fuel production on the Moon, but the resulting  Fuel Mix has significantly lower performance and requires significant higher amount of power that the 18 kW power requirement.

Performance isn't as important once you're in space. It is still important, but mass ratio can compensate for a lack of performance, and availability is pretty important.

[FreeThinker]

2 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

The majority of light atoms and molecules were pushed by the solar wind to the outer solar system. The only reason there is any on Earth (and there's not even that much, just a good amount on the surface) is because celestial objects from the outer system collided with Earth a long time ago.

This might explain the water but what about the nitrogen? Why doesn't Venus have much Nitrogen in it's atmosphere? The only likely explanation is the upper mantle http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v7/n11/full/ngeo2271.html

 

[Bill Phil]

Just now, FreeThinker said:

This might explain the water but what about the nitrogen? Why doesn't Venus have much Nitrogen in it's atmosphere? The only likely explanation is the upper mantle http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v7/n11/full/ngeo2271.html

 

Nitrogen is a light atom... Lighter than water in its single state, but heavier in its diatomic state. Still pretty light, though. Venus is a bit weird, since all of the free oxygen (if it had any) has bonded. Nitrogen bonds to things as well, diatomic Nitrogen might not d it as often as oxygen, but if it's used in biology and organic substances, it's not going to be something that doesn't react. So it probably got locked away in the crust or other compounds in the atmosphere.

[FreeThinker]

5 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Performance isn't as important once you're in space. It is still important, but mass ratio can compensate for a lack of performance, and availability is pretty important.

True, but the Oxidier made on the Mun, has to be pure Oxygen, which is cryogenic, requiring power to maintain. The Stock Ore to Fuel processing allows you to create Fuel depos in orbit of Kerbin made from Ore collect on the Mun.

Edit: another problem is that Liquid + Oxidiser can be used in Fuel cell fin the production of power. Try to do that with Aluminium

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bill Phil]

Just now, FreeThinker said:

True, but the Oxidier made on the Mun, has to be pure Oxygen, which is cryogenic, requiring power to maintain. The Stock Ore to Fuel processing allows you to create Fuel depos in orbit of Kerbin made from Ore collect on the Mun

Oxidizer doesn't necessarily have to be oxygen. Anything near oxygen would work out, but Oxygen is one of the best.

[FreeThinker]

4 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Nitrogen is a light atom... Lighter than water in its single state, but heavier in its diatomic state. Still pretty light, though. Venus is a bit weird, since all of the free oxygen (if it had any) has bonded. Nitrogen bonds to things as well, diatomic Nitrogen might not d it as often as oxygen, but if it's used in biology and organic substances, it's not going to be something that doesn't react. So it probably got locked away in the crust or other compounds in the atmosphere.

Seems more likely that Nitrogen wasn't as abundant in the Venus mantle to begin with. My guess is that it is too light (in comparison to other gases like CO2) and Nitrogen disapeard very early in Venus life

3 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Oxidizer doesn't necessarily have to be oxygen. Anything near oxygen would work out, but Oxygen is one of the best.

True but the problem is that stock KSP treats Oxidizer made on Earth the same as Oxidiser made on the Mun

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bill Phil]

17 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Seems more likely that Nitrogen wasn't as abundant in the Venus mantle to begin with. My guess is that it is too light (in comparison to other gases like CO2) and Nitrogen disapeard very early in Venus life

True but the problem is that stock KSP treats Oxidizer made on Earth the same as Oxidiser made on the Mun

It's not really abundant in mantles at all, except in the outer system.

KSP is known for not being realistic. There's no reason to assume it is in this case. Realfuels can help, I think...

[FreeThinker]

14 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

It's not really abundant in mantles at all, except in the outer system.

KSP is known for not being realistic. There's no reason to assume it is in this case. Realfuels can help, I think...

KSP Has realy spoiled us with their easy but unrealsitc ISRU. It's very hard to fix it unless you significant lower Ore avialability on the Mun and instead introduce a more realsit alternative.

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bill Phil]

1 minute ago, FreeThinker said:

KSP Has spoiled us with their easy but unrealsitc ISRU. It's very hard to fix it unless you significant lower Ore avialability on the Mun

There are many mods that can help you get a more realistic experience.

[FreeThinker]

2 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

There are many mods that can help you get a more realistic experience.

Oh, Do you know any other mods besides KSPI-E that allow you to scan and mine Aluminia, convert it to Aluminium + Oxygen and use it effectivly in for Rocket Propulsion?

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[p1t1o]

50 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

@p1t1o Yes, Aluminium and other Metals are indeed the most likely candidates for IRSU fuel production on the Moon, but the resulting  Fuel Mix has significantly lower performance and requires significant higher amount of power that the 18 kW power requirement.

Since you're in a 1/6th G gravity well and no atmosphere, performance requirements are very much relaxed. Its plenty powerful enough for LEO-Lunar operations.

What is the 18kW requirement from? Im still not sure if we are talking KSP or real life here, it makes huge difference.

[FreeThinker]

16 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

What is the 18kW requirement from? Im still not sure if we are talking KSP or real life here, it makes huge difference.

The 18kW requirement is the power requirment to mine for Stock Ore on the standard Stock Drill (Drill o Magic).

16 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Since you're in a 1/6th G gravity well and no atmosphere, performance requirements are very much relaxed. Its plenty powerful enough for LEO-Lunar operations.

For Lunar operations, this is certainly true, but once you start export the surplus out of a Lunar environment, it becomes a cheap way to build and maintain a fuel station

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[p1t1o]

1 minute ago, FreeThinker said:

The 18kW requirement is the power requirment to mine for Stock Ore on the standard Stock Drill (Drill o Magic).

So why are we talking about liquid oxygen, aluminium and nitrogen if we are talking stock-KSP?

Who says that Mun has no nitrogen for a start? It *definitely* doesn't have the same composition as the Moon.

This thread is all over the place.

Are you trying to figure out how to make an RSS/RO build where you realistically mine fuel on the moon?

[lajoswinkler]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

The majority of light atoms and molecules were pushed by the solar wind to the outer solar system. The only reason there is any on Earth (and there's not even that much, just a good amount on the surface) is because celestial objects from the outer system collided with Earth a long time ago.

That is not correct. Earth has massive deposits of ices in its mantle. Water, CO₂, nitrogen, they're either bound as crystal water, part of a compound, or dissolved under extreme pressures. Earth itself is the main source of ices on its surface. Volcanos barf it regularly and isotopic content of comets simply does not match with isotopic content of our ices.

 

For some reason, during the last years, general public is being taught by the media that water and life came from somewhere else. Earth had every possible means of delivering both.

Edited June 29, 2016 by lajoswinkler

[Bill Phil]

Just now, lajoswinkler said:

That is not correct. Earth has massive deposits of ices in its mantle. Water, CO₂, nitrogen, they're either bound as crystal water, part of a compound, or dissolved under extreme pressures. Earth itself is the main source of ices on its surface. Volcanos barf it regularly and isotopic content of comets simply does not match with isotopic content of our ices.

Except that it can't possibly account for all of the ices on Earth.

[FreeThinker]

Stock ISRU allows you to create LiqiodFuel + Oxidiser, which are Hyperergolic fuels that requires Nitrogen, which is logicaly very scarce on the Mun, therefore not stolck IRSU inaccurate representaion of reality.

I'm trying to determe all the possible solutions for this problem, which I haven't though of already so I can integrate them into KSPI-E

For example: What about Borane Fuel, which replace Nitrogen by Boran

Edited June 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bill Phil]

Just now, FreeThinker said:

Stock ISRU allows you to create LiqiodFuel + Oxidiser, which are Hyperergolic fuels that require fuels, that normaly requires Nitrogen, which is logicaly very scarce on the Mun, therefore not accurate.

I'm trying to determe all the possible solutions for this problem, which I haven't though of already so I can integrate them into KSPI-E

The Mun is not the Moon... There's no logical reason to assume that nitrogen is less abundant on the Mun as opposed to the Moon.

[FreeThinker]

Just now, Bill Phil said:

The Mun is not the Moon... There's no logical reason to assume that nitrogen is less abundant on the Mun as opposed to the Moon.

Technically they are not the same, but it certainly clear to be intended as Kerbalized verion of our Moon, therefore it should have the same characteristcs.

[kerbiloid]

Nitrogen is not exhausted from lythosphere, it's a boiled up cryosphere. So, no reasons to search its deposits in a crust or mantle.

Venus, certainly had large amounts of Nitro — as the Earth does.
But it has dissipated due to the heat, like water (a volcanic steam) also has, being splitted by UV into Oxy and Hydro.
Nitro and Oxy have almost the same molecular mass, so they both are gone.

On the Moon you can't get domestic Nitro, you must avoid its usage as long as possible, or import it from the Earth.

From another side — imagine, you are a lunar redneck with a moon rocket tractor. Would you really want to tremble any time fueling it in your hangar with flammable toxic hyperholics? And then cleaning the fuel spots? Unlikely.
What would you want instead? Peroxide. It's a fuel for main engine, for RCS, you can drink it (→water), you can breathe it (→oxygen), it's enough stable and not so toxic.
What do you need to import for it? H.

From the third side — any handy rocket fuel mostly consists of Oxy. There is a lot of Oxy on the Moon.
What is oxidizer for hyperholics? NTO. What does it consist of? N and O. What do you need to import? N.

So, you would import large amount of hydrazine. Partially convert it into NTO (source of N). Partially — into HTP (source of H).
Then you can fly high on hydrazine+NTO, fly to your neighbors' farm on HTP.

Also you can use this hydrazine as a working body for nukes.
And if you implement in KSPI-E that aneutronic 15N-based fusion, you can get 15N-hydrazine for your fusion.

Of course, any time you can use the same hydrazine to make fertilizer.

So, all hail hydrazine, s**rew that 3He.

[Bill Phil]

Just now, FreeThinker said:

Technically they are not the same, but it certainly clear to be intended as Kerbalized verion of our Moon, therefore it should have the same characteristcs.

But Kerbin, Jool, Eve, Duna, and all other analogs tend to have variance in their similarities. Eve is purple and has oceans, Duna has a huge moon, Kerbin has 2 moons and green aliens living on it, Jool is green with moons of a similar size to Kerbin (which would make Jupiter have Earth sized moons). Why should we assume that the Mun is just a smaller version of the Moon when there are clearly some pretty differences in how the other analogs are presented? There's really no good reason to assume that.

[p1t1o]

There's also no reason to assume that LiquidFuel+Oxidiser are hypergolic.

I think I understand what you are trying to do, and it will be cool if you succeed, but dressing it up in all this talk is confusing.