Worst engine in KSP

[Xyphos]

3 minutes ago, Robotengineer said:

Unity (the game engine KSP runs on). It is horribly optimized for what KSP needs and is not open source, (unlike Unreal Engine 4), so the devs can't customize it.

 

 

 

Actually, I wouldn't mind having KSP as a cell-shaded game ran in Unreal 4 - the cartoonish graphics would perfectly fit the comedy that KSP really is, and still look good while doing it at a lower graphics requirement.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Xyphos

[numerobis]

The Thud is the only engine I've never even wanted to use.

The Goliath is perfect for building an A380 (which I've never done, but...)

The poodle is key to low-cost upper stages. The T30 is great for lower stages -- least cost per kN of thrust of any LFO engine. The T45 is useful in early career, I use it for the first few "crew report below/above" contracts, and for building a tourist rocket under 18t.

[cantab]

Not only does Unreal Engine have problems with environments the size of planets, one of their staff said about it "Why would someone want to play a game like that? You wouldn't be able to fill it with enough interesting things for it to matter."

Source: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?29261-how-to-create-planet-size-world

Until someone can point me to a game made in Unreal Engine that features planets comparable in size to KSP that can both be explored at "human scale" and flown over at hypersonic speeds, I'm going to retain my view that for all Unity's flaws in handling KSP, Unreal would be even worse.

More discussion of it: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?29502-Simulate-Planet-Orbit

[numerobis]

Unity can't handle loading entire worlds either. KSP loads and unloads bits (that's the physics range stuff). The main issue though is development time: unreal is a lot more unwieldy.

[Firemetal]

The smallest jet. I use fleas as bigger seperatrons. 

[Robotengineer]

42 minutes ago, cantab said:

Not only does Unreal Engine have problems with environments the size of planets, one of their staff said about it "Why would someone want to play a game like that? You wouldn't be able to fill it with enough interesting things for it to matter."

Source: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?29261-how-to-create-planet-size-world

Until someone can point me to a game made in Unreal Engine that features planets comparable in size to KSP that can both be explored at "human scale" and flown over at hypersonic speeds, I'm going to retain my view that for all Unity's flaws in handling KSP, Unreal would be even worse.

More discussion of it: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?29502-Simulate-Planet-Orbit

I wasn't suggesting UE4 specifically, only using it as an example of an engine that has source access. Every other game (that I have seen) that has similar scale to KSP has been on a custom engine, AFAIK. 

There is Astroneer, which is on UE4 (not sure if it is as big as KSP though). http://astroneer.space

Edited July 5, 2016 by Robotengineer

[TwinKerbal]

1 hour ago, Robotengineer said:

I wasn't suggesting UE4 specifically, only using it as an example of an engine that has source access. Every other game (that I have seen) that has similar scale to KSP has been on a custom engine, AFAIK. 

There is Astroneer, which is on UE4 (not sure if it is as big as KSP though). http://astroneer.space

Oh man, astroneer looks like no mans sky. I might get it

 

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, numerobis said:

The Thud is the only engine I've never even wanted to use.

The Goliath is perfect for building an A380 (which I've never done, but...)

The poodle is key to low-cost upper stages. The T30 is great for lower stages -- least cost per kN of thrust of any LFO engine. The T45 is useful in early career, I use it for the first few "crew report below/above" contracts, and for building a tourist rocket under 18t.

Thud is nice on larger landers, yes an poodle is better here but you might want the bottom for an docking port. 

[Xyphos]

I'll argue that you really should not load entire planets and all their contents at once; I don't think there's any game engine out there that can handle that.
instead, you have to use tricks and methods to fake it. you know that planet that you're too far away to see and it's just a dot?
yeah, that dot should be a low-res terrain-map image scaled appropriately to the distance of your craft, and not a full-blown model.
the planet's model shouldn't be loaded until you're close enough for it to actually matter and even then, only parts of the model you can see should be loaded;
why do you need to render the other side of the planet every game frame if you're not going to be able to even see it?
map view? no model, again, a terrain-map image would suffice.

[Gauga159]

19 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

Same here, small oscar tanks on decouplers infront of probe...drop them as you burn. 0.6t probes that easily get to Jool is awesome(Ant has even more Isp than spark)

I have the ring tank and oscar for that dv

[Blaarkies]

1 hour ago, Xyphos said:

map view? no model, again, a terrain-map image would suffice.

That is how you rendezvous with a mountain on the Mun 
On gilly or pol it would be hard to do a low orbit when things look totally different in flight view and map view. I am exaggerating of course, but there needs to be some model or way to see height differences of the celestial body in map view.

[Laie]

The Thud is an engine I sometimes consider but then don't use, which probably means it's a bad engine.

But my personal worst engine is the Nerva. The type of vessel where I even bother with them is *big*, like hundreds of tons big. At 60kN apiece the engines plus supporting parts to make pods/nacelles/gondolas seriously drive up the part count, which sadly still is a thing.

[Alpha 360]

I vote either the spider or twitch, an ant engine could do both of their jobs easily. I once tried using sixteen spider engines to slow my Mun base decent. It didn't even slow it down!

[magnemoe]

11 minutes ago, Alpha 360 said:

I vote either the spider or twitch, an ant engine could do both of their jobs easily. I once tried using sixteen spider engines to slow my Mun base decent. It didn't even slow it down!

Spider is nice then the ant is too small or you need the bottom node for other stuff.
Spider for probes not bases, on the other hand the twitch might work for an smaller base. radial engines tend to perform a bit worse but don't need the bottom node, they are nice for landing rovers for one. 

[Xyphos]

Thud fits snugly along the walls of a Mk3 cargo bay or even a size-2 service bay, and can give you some VTOL capabilities, but certainly not for long-term use.
you can do the same thing with Twitch inside a Mk2 cargo bay.
ant is better suited for very small probes.
spider is great for low-gravity landers, I've slapped 6 of them on a Minmus lander and it worked well.

[cantab]

4 hours ago, Xyphos said:

I'll argue that you really should not load entire planets and all their contents at once; I don't think there's any game engine out there that can handle that.
instead, you have to use tricks and methods to fake it. you know that planet that you're too far away to see and it's just a dot?
yeah, that dot should be a low-res terrain-map image scaled appropriately to the distance of your craft, and not a full-blown model.
the planet's model shouldn't be loaded until you're close enough for it to actually matter and even then, only parts of the model you can see should be loaded;
why do you need to render the other side of the planet every game frame if you're not going to be able to even see it?
map view? no model, again, a terrain-map image would suffice.

A game like KSP certainly can't render everything at full detail at once. And indeed KSP doesn't. Terrain further from the craft uses a lower level of detail, and planets that are more than a few dozen km away are rendered in their simpler "scaledspace" forms. (KSP doesn't entirely pull this off though, the less detailed terrain is frequently obvious, and the scaledspace view clearly visually different.) But on the other hand the speeds attainable in KSP mean that you have to at least load a wide area at a time. If you tried to use the standard Unreal Engine "open world" tools and the default scale then on a low flyby or orbit of Tylo you'd be pulling in a new 'level' every few seconds, while possibly just a km or two above the surface. I can't imagine that feasible when those tools were probably built with nothing faster than a horse in mind.

[Parv Kerman]

On Monday, July 4, 2016 at 4:43 AM, goduranus said:

 

The Thud(medium radial)is pretty bad imo, it's expensive and heavy, it's too big for small rockets, but if you have a rocket big enough to use the Thud it's better to use inline engines.

It's got a good gimbal range but I've never found a use for it.

you don't know the use of thud ???? man space shuttles!!!!

[XB-70A]

Interesting topic. I used to past over the small SRBs for a while, even the Thumper once good liquid fuel engines were availables. Then the last week I made a bet with myself to realize a simple, full stock launch vehicle based on solid propellant only. She's named Etendard for its form and in memory of the recently retired Super-Etendard. One Kickback, one Hammer and a Flea, and suprisingly the last one performed pretty well ! It gives a nice last impulsion before the final stage complete the job.

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by XB-70A
Found the Imgur album option after 20 min... (D.U.M.B.)

[wumpus]

On 7/3/2016 at 7:31 PM, Dfthu said:

The flea SRB. Nobody ever uses it besides their first flight in career mode.

Uses for flea:

replace seperatrons for oversized rockets that couldn't be separated by seperatrons (but hammers are too big)

An attempt to reverse course and return spend boosters to the pad before leaving the physics bubble (abandoned)

 

I know I've wanted the spider and ant for uses where I only had thuds.  But I think that was only one time.

Reliants are pretty much superior in all ways to swivels if you don't need the pitch control.  If they are used on small enough rockets, a mark1 can typically supply the needed control.  Unfortunately, grouping with swivels is no longer an efficient use (I suspect they are still popular in the demo).

Poodles are basically a lighter edition of four terriers.  If you are too impatient with dealing with the TWR (or the TWR of a 3 or less terriers will *not make it to orbit*) it is a great engine.  Also with a thrust four times higher than the nuke, this still helps in getting to orbit at all.

Are the aerospikes useful on Eve?  Just before I started, they were used everywhere and then hit with the nerf bat so hard that they were effectively useless.  I suspect the changes to surface thrust changed it back to at least useful *somewhere*.

 

[Red Iron Crown]

5 minutes ago, wumpus said:

Are the aerospikes useful on Eve?

They are, but are generally outclassed there by the Vector.

Aerospikes are decent lander engines, their short profile, decent TWR and Isp all work in their favor for that.

[Randazzo]

If definition of "worst" is an engine that has no use for me...it would be a three-way tie.

I never use the Thud - Only tried these things once. Never since.

I never use the Twin Boar - For some reason, this booster never even enters my mind. It's mainsail or a mod engine instead, always.

I never use the Ion Engine - I don't have the patience for the long burn times or the initiative to calculate proper AP kicks.

[Brownhair2]

On 7/4/2016 at 8:04 AM, Jetski said:

With the new ability to set RCS "fore by throttle" puff is pretty much obsolete unless you are doing this with a large ship. 

I'd like to point out that the Puff has a slightly higher Isp than the RCS blocks

EDIT: Also, the Puff and RCS thrusters are both physics-less parts. If that's still a thing then there's no reason to not use the Puff, and if it isn't than the Puff has higher TWR than both RCS thrusters (excluding Vernors)

Edited July 5, 2016 by Brownhair2

[purpleivan]

I'm going to have to go with the Rhino as being the worst engine, based on the number of times I've glanced at it and thought about putting it on my launcher as the 1st stage, for reality to kick in a moment later and remind me to put the Mammoth on instead, due to the the efficiency of running it at sea level being so much better, even when using the Mammoth is overkill. If I remember correctly the sea level efficiency of it was nerfed a few version ago.

Ok, the Rhino can be used as a 2nd stage engine, but except for really large launchers, it's likely to be overkill itself by the time the Mammoth has run dry.

It's just one of the engines that I never seem to need to use.

[soulsource]

I just have to post something in defence of the ant:

This is what I've been using for most of my trips to Minmus in my current save. It costs altogether 31056 roots, of which 10879 are meant to return to and land on Kerbin, so if the landing isn't too far away from the KSC, the whole trip to Minmus including possible biome-hopping costs about 22000 roots. Scientific equipment includes one Mystery Goo container, a Science Jr., a seismo-, and a thermometer.

And yes, the lander engines are ants.

Edited July 5, 2016 by soulsource

[KerikBalm]

1 hour ago, purpleivan said:

I'm going to have to go with the Rhino as being the worst engine, based on the number of times I've glanced at it and thought about putting it on my launcher as the 1st stage, for reality to kick in a moment later and remind me to put the Mammoth on instead, due to the the efficiency of running it at sea level being so much better, even when using the Mammoth is overkill. If I remember correctly the sea level efficiency of it was nerfed a few version ago.

Ok, the Rhino can be used as a 2nd stage engine, but except for really large launchers, it's likely to be overkill itself by the time the Mammoth has run dry.

It's just one of the engines that I never seem to need to use.

Blashphemy... its a great vacuum engine... you're just not thinking *big* enough

Don't tell me that you can get somewhere with a small payload, and you don't need 2000 kN in orbit...

Here are just some examples of my uses for it:

http://imgur.com/sVCHOue

(hard to see, but its a central KR-2L with 16 nukes in 4x clusters of 4)

This was before the vector:

 

and... my favorite use of it, a lander engine for massive fuel tankers/mining craft: