The pacific garbage patch

[Emperor of the Titan Squid]

The pacific garbage patch is 2 huge clumps of plastic garbage, circling around pacific gyres. Nobody knows how to get rid of it. Some say we could use bacteria to eat it. I say that we use robots to turn it into something useful, such as, say, a floating city. iKnow that that's crazy. What are your ideas?

[Scotius]

Leave it for the Nature. Any floating bit in tropical waters gets quickly colonised by algae and small animals. Providing them with shelter and living space - paradoxically improving productivity and biodiversity of the area. They will keep growing, until their "raft" gets too heavy and sinks to the bottom - taking the organic matter with it as a treat for bottom-dwellers. Down there plastic will be covered by silt, become part of the bedrock - and eventually it will be dragged into the mantle by ocean floor subduction. Of course we absolutely should stop dumping our garbage into the seas - it's still harmful for environment (fish, turtles, birds and whales are found with pieces of plastic in stomachs all the time).

[p1t1o]

Honestly? Leave it there. The "garbage patches" are huge and diffuse, collecting it all would create a lot of carbon dioxide, pollution and waste of its own (from production of a vast mass of new equipment and its long-term operation).

As long as we *stop adding to it* the waste will eventually be broken down and slowly absorbed back into the ecosystem without too much disruption. The bacterial, chemical and electromagnetic (UV) environment should be sufficient to break down even the most durable plastics given sufficient time. It might be a long time, but when it comes to fixing gross ecosystems, there are no quick fixes.

Of course, if we cant stop ourselves from dumping our trash in the ocean which sustains us, then some kind of removal will eventually become a necessity.

 

Holy Heck @Scotius!  Ninja'd! I cant believe it!

[WestAir]

Can't we just launch it into space on a return trajectory back to new New York?

[Hydrothermalventclam]

The problem with leaving it there is that it is harmful for the wildlife that live in that area, because it builds up in the digestive tracts of animals, which is especially harmful for babies.  It can also absorb pollutants and toxins, which then build up inside of the animals as well, which is harmful not only for the animals themselves, but whoever eats them (eventually us).  The plastic will eventually be broken down, but because it is plastic, eventually means like 500 to 1000 years, possibly more depending on the size and composition of the plastics.

[p1t1o]

6 hours ago, NathanMcGuire30 said:

The problem with leaving it there is that it is harmful for the wildlife that live in that area, because it builds up in the digestive tracts of animals, which is especially harmful for babies.  It can also absorb pollutants and toxins, which then build up inside of the animals as well, which is harmful not only for the animals themselves, but whoever eats them (eventually us).  The plastic will eventually be broken down, but because it is plastic, eventually means like 500 to 1000 years, possibly more depending on the size and composition of the plastics.

Nobody thinks its presence isn't harmful, but it is not a big pile of garbage a few hundred metres across. It is an area of increases garbage density several hundred or thousands of kilometres across. Any large scale way of scooping it up runs a risk of causing further harm IMO.

As for 500-1000 years, or even 10,000years sometimes quoted is fairly old and usually based on landfill, an oxygen deficient and light-free environment with low bacterial load, even so-called "biodegradable" plastics can take decades to degrade under those conditions. The top few tens of metres of ocean (which is what we are talking about) is a much harsher environment where the material is exposed to UV, saltwater and algal and bacterial invasion, degradation can drop to tens or even single digit years, depending on the compounds.

The key is to stop dumping in the oceans. If we can do that, the ocean will clean itself without any further effort, and we won't have to manufacture gigantic industrial machines and run them round the ocean for several decades.

[Hydrothermalventclam]

5 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Nobody thinks its presence isn't harmful, but it is not a big pile of garbage a few hundred metres across. It is an area of increases garbage density several hundred or thousands of kilometres across. Any large scale way of scooping it up runs a risk of causing further harm IMO.

As for 500-1000 years, or even 10,000years sometimes quoted is fairly old and usually based on landfill, an oxygen deficient and light-free environment with low bacterial load, even so-called "biodegradable" plastics can take decades to degrade under those conditions. The top few tens of metres of ocean (which is what we are talking about) is a much harsher environment where the material is exposed to UV, saltwater and algal and bacterial invasion, degradation can drop to tens or even single digit years, depending on the compounds.

The key is to stop dumping in the oceans. If we can do that, the ocean will clean itself without any further effort, and we won't have to manufacture gigantic industrial machines and run them round the ocean for several decades.

That all is true.  Going out into the ocean and grabbing all the little tiny pieces of plastic would be very hard, or impossible, and definitely more work than gain.  And we do have to stop dumping stuff in the oceans.  I just don't think that the ocean can just "sort itself out" in any reasonable amount of time, given the sheer amount of stuff that we have put into it.  We have to do some kind of clean up effort, or else our garbage that is still in the ocean will continue to cause problems for quite some time.

[p1t1o]

8 minutes ago, NathanMcGuire30 said:

That all is true.  Going out into the ocean and grabbing all the little tiny pieces of plastic would be very hard, or impossible, and definitely more work than gain.  And we do have to stop dumping stuff in the oceans.  I just don't think that the ocean can just "sort itself out" in any reasonable amount of time, given the sheer amount of stuff that we have put into it.  We have to do some kind of clean up effort, or else our garbage that is still in the ocean will continue to cause problems for quite some time.

Agreed. Sadly, like a lot of our problems its damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont.

[Hydrothermalventclam]

1 minute ago, p1t1o said:

Agreed. Sadly, like a lot of our problems its damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont.

Also, it costs money, and no one wants to pay for something with no direct benefit to themselves.

[p1t1o]

There's a joke in here somewhere abut a pan-pacific garbage blaster, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

Spoiler

 

for the philistines...

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Pan_Galactic_Gargle_Blaster

 

 

[FreeThinker]

23 hours ago, p1t1o said:

As long as we *stop adding to it* the waste will eventually be broken down and slowly absorbed back into the ecosystem without too much disruption. The bacterial, chemical and electromagnetic (UV) environment should be sufficient to break down even the most durable plastics given sufficient time. It might be a long time, but when it comes to fixing gross ecosystems, there are no quick fixes.

@ScotiusOf course, if we cant stop ourselves from dumping our trash in the ocean which sustains us, then some kind of removal will eventually become a necessity.

Evironmentalist has use this fact  succesfully to ban plastic bags in groceries and shop in western europe. Not that this was a problem, as they treat the sevage waste, in contrast to the developed world that doesn't and continue to do it, creating island of floating plastics. The net effect now is that we produce more CO2 because the replacing materials, paper bags and caton are far more damaging to the environment.

Edited August 5, 2016 by FreeThinker

[jwenting]

even worse, those same environmentalists were until recently promoting those same plastic bags as a green and hygienic alternative to paper bags, and had been successful in getting those banned from grocery stores years ago on that premise...

So now stores have no way at all to ship customers fresh produce in a way that's convenient and hygienic, unless they get it shipped from the wholesale channel prepackaged in plastic boxes and shrinkwrapped, which causes a lot more plastic waste than the plastic bags used to do before.

Of course in a few years those same environmentalists will start calling for a ban on that way of packaging as well, leaving stores and consumers with no way to get their fresh produce to their homes at all that's clean and convenient. Maybe people should revert to the old way of taking a bunch of old newspapers with them to the supermarket and wrap the fish, meat, and vegetables in that, having the nice toxic ink soak into tomorrow's dinner...

[Scotius]

Sometimes, in their zeal environmentalists do more harm than good. But they mean well, and we need people willing to defend the nature. I have an old book (written circa 1960) about efforts to organise a new national park in Soviet Russia. One fragment shocked me, and shown me how different things were barely half a century ago. It described how director of said park and couple of his rangers went into the forest to check how animals fare during winter. During the trek they encountered a pack of wolves. Their reaction? Grab their rifles and immediately start shooting "because wolves would kill deer and other herbivores". And i speak about a scientist, a biologist.

[Elthy]

About plastic bags in Europe: In Germany plastic bags are not banned, the goverement just tries to get stores to not hand them out all the time without need. This is currently archived by stores charging a small pay (around 20ct) for a plastic bag, so you only take them when you need them. Most people use baskets, backpacks or plastic boxes to transport their grocerys. If those are to small, you simply take a plastic bag, which can also be reused.

For me this sounds like a way better system than getting 5 bags for every purchase like ive witnessed in the USA. Noone there seemed to use any alternative.

[Scotius]

19 minutes ago, Elthy said:

About plastic bags in Europe: In Germany plastic bags are not banned, the goverement just tries to get stores to not hand them out all the time without need. This is currently archived by stores charging a small pay (around 20ct) for a plastic bag, so you only take them when you need them. Most people use baskets, backpacks or plastic boxes to transport their grocerys. If those are to small, you simply take a plastic bag, which can also be reused.

For me this sounds like a way better system than getting 5 bags for every purchase like ive witnessed in the USA. Noone there seemed to use any alternative.

Same in Poland. Stores charge for plastic bags, and encourage the use of reuseable bags. Homesteads also tend to reuse plastic bags as much as possible, to reduce payments for garbage removal.

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, jwenting said:

even worse, those same environmentalists were until recently promoting those same plastic bags as a green and hygienic alternative to paper bags, and had been successful in getting those banned from grocery stores years ago on that premise...

So now stores have no way at all to ship customers fresh produce in a way that's convenient and hygienic, unless they get it shipped from the wholesale channel prepackaged in plastic boxes and shrinkwrapped, which causes a lot more plastic waste than the plastic bags used to do before.

Of course in a few years those same environmentalists will start calling for a ban on that way of packaging as well, leaving stores and consumers with no way to get their fresh produce to their homes at all that's clean and convenient. Maybe people should revert to the old way of taking a bunch of old newspapers with them to the supermarket and wrap the fish, meat, and vegetables in that, having the nice toxic ink soak into tomorrow's dinner...

This, hate the pre-wraped stuff who tend to use far to much plastic, lot of it to make the product more noticeable, its also more expensive and you have to buy the quantity in the package. 
More fun in that plastic bags tend to be reused at least once for putting garbage in, without them you would had to buy separate bags for trash anyway. 
In Norway it was plans to start with it, however the politican fronting it knew he would die as bag-lady (name) so nobody took responsibility. 

[Emperor of the Titan Squid]

Possibly, in the future we could remove it using Nano bots. Many environmentalist groups are good.

[magnemoe]

1 minute ago, Emperor of the Titan Squid said:

Possibly, in the future we could remove it using Nano bots. Many environmentalist groups are good.

Or simply using plastic who breaks down easier, already most plastic breaks down with UV and most products don't need wrapping who last a long time while exposed. 

Part is cultural I think many countries has become way richer the last generation and stuff has become cheaper. 
I was in Morocco this spring and was shocked by the amount of garbage along roads and on the coast. one generation ago plastic wrapping was rare and in an generation kids learn to throw it in the garbage. 

On the gripping hand nature might fight back, an bacteria who evolves to eat most sort of plastic would be overall bad news. Nice about the garbage not so fun about your boat, yes its metal or tree you say but the cooling lines are plastic
 

[Elthy]

Isnt the problem with plasitcs in the ocean that it breaks down into very small parts, but doesnt decompose completly?

[Emperor of the Titan Squid]

1 hour ago, Elthy said:

Isnt the problem with plasitcs in the ocean that it breaks down into very small parts, but doesnt decompose completly?

Yes exactly.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, Emperor of the Titan Squid said:

Yes exactly.

it should decompose fully but this takes multiple years. 
in the meantime stupid fish eats it as it grow stuff on it. 
 

[FreeThinker]

17 hours ago, Scotius said:

Sometimes, in their zeal environmentalists do more harm than good. But they mean well, and we need people willing to defend the nature. I have an old book (written circa 1960) about efforts to organise a new national park in Soviet Russia. One fragment shocked me, and shown me how different things were barely half a century ago. It described how director of said park and couple of his rangers went into the forest to check how animals fare during winter. During the trek they encountered a pack of wolves. Their reaction? Grab their rifles and immediately start shooting "because wolves would kill deer and other herbivores". And i speak about a scientist, a biologist.

Well the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is especialy true for many socialist/communist party programs, which end up creating corruption,  disrupting the economy, society, and environment. In the end, this lead to their demise.

Edited August 5, 2016 by FreeThinker

[moogoob]

We could park an aircraft carrier and strap some smaller boats to it to make a big Raft, then have it slowly ferry refugees and pirates as is drifts around on ocean currents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash

Just make sure that no media magnates, half-black-half-Japanese swordsmen, Kouriers or Aleutians with "Poor Impulse Control" tattooed across their forehead get on board.

[RainDreamer]

Welp, before this thread get closed, here are some of my spare changes:

1. Human are the masters of their environment. However, they have been very, very, very horrible masters. We need to be more responsible with the place we live in. We could probably do less about blaming and more about solving things.

2. The garbage patch is a source of recycleable material, though due to how uneconomical it is, likely no one would attempt to do that. It is also too scattered and spare to be any sort of structure, despite the rumours of it being an island of sort. The thing is just a nasty, nasty patch of garbage floating around, captured by ocean currents, poisoning marine life. Many pieces of trash are too small to be collected by nets effectively, but just the right size for a silly fish to mistaken it for food and gobble up.  It is unlikely to clear the whole thing without resorting to smart solution like, well, bacteria to digest the plastic.  Still, that is not something we can simply come up. Like many complicate things in life, there is never an easy absolute answer to come upon to.

[OzEtkin]

The Ocean Cleanup seems like a viable plan to clean up the Pacific Garbage Patches. It requires very little energy to operate, and is designed so that wildlife is not harmed in the cleanup process.