Change SC-9001 Science Jr to 0.625m

[klesh]

See title.  I think Science experiments should be small things.  Tons of effort is put in to miniaturizing them in real life, and while this isnt real life,the 1.25m form factor seems too large to me when compared to the other experiments. I tweakscale for my needs, but I'd like to know what you guys think. 

[septemberWaves]

The materials bay is large, but it also gives the highest science rewards other than those gained from taking crew. Yes, it makes it slightly more challenging to make an all-inclusive science vessel, but that's kind of the point really. There are several small experiments that can be used multiple times without having to be reset, and those are excellent for early probes when you don't necessarily have the technology or funds to send large crewed vehicles. Then, later on, you can start to send kerbals to explore space, and also larger, more expensive, and more advanced vehicles that are also far more rewarding.

Eve is probably the best example of why this method is good. Once you unlock heat shields, it's incredibly easy to send a simple lightweight probe on a one-way trip to Eve. You can send several of them to get science data from different biomes, and you also fulfil the requirements for the "Explore Eve" contract. However, if you're the sort of person who absolutely needs the science data from everywhere in order to feel like you've completed the game, you can send a large, complex, and expensive mission to Eve once you've unlocked most of the tech tree, and that's when you take experiments like the materials bay and the goo (I know you didn't mention the goo but it's a similarly irritating object to fit onto a small probe).

[Tyko]

SETIRebalance mod by @Yemo adds a pod version that's based on the Mystery Goo pod. It also makes them the same weight. I love this solution because I usually want to carry those two experiments in pairs anyway.

[Alshain]

I don't find it worth the science to even use it.  It's not cost effective to send it anywhere outside of the atmosphere and I don't need its science since the solar system has way more than you need... so I don't really use it at all. 

The size/mass and the fact it can only be used once are a perfect storm for making the part undesirable.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Alshain

[tater]

I'm with Alshain (again, lol). Aside from the single use, it's ugly.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

I only find the Science Jr. unwieldy on landers due to it's height.

Besides that it's pretty trivial to include on any reasonable sized rocket in my opinion.

@Alshain makes a pretty good point though, science is so plentiful you could totally just ignore the Science Jr. and still fill the tech tree easily.

[foamyesque]

My gripe with the Sci Jr is that it's a real hassle to fit on rovers.

[pincushionman]

The problem I have with the SciJr (and the goo cans, let's be honest) is their placement in the tech tree. They're the biggest, bulkiest experiments we have, yet we have to use them while we're fighting all the other part limitations at the beginning.

The Jr is lightweight yet bulky, resulting in difficult-to-return or difficult-to-land-and-collect science because of the craft-flipping challenge and low crash tolerance. The goo cans, while smaller than they used to be, are the only physicsful radial science part and therefore can almost never be flown alone until you get bays, usually wasting mass and part count. And neither are reuseable.

The other experiments are gotten late enough in the tree we can darn near guarantee that we already have the parts necessary to remove any challenge in their use. They're lightweight, physicsless, can be re-used with impunity, and we have bays and heatshields.

So, in the late game, there's little value in fighting those limitations and they get left behind. In my opinion, we should start with low-science, easy, place-anywhere thermometers and barometers, and the goo cans and Jrs should be further down where they can offer significant rewards for putting up with the design limitations they demand.

[DaElite101]

If the Science Jr was made smaller, where would the baby glowing Kraken go?

[Reactordrone]

Materials study experiments can be quite large in real life,

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/index.cfm

[Alshain]

44 minutes ago, Reactordrone said:

Materials study experiments can be quite large in real life,

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/index.cfm

 

If you are talking about the LDEF, the whole point of that was long term and it stored MANY experiments.  That might actually be a way to fix it.  Make it accumulate more science the longer it is in space (with a cap), but make it so Kerbals can not remove it at all and it can not be transmitted (i.e. you have to recover the module).  Also make it so that it can only be continued in one situation, so once you start it in orbit of a planet, you can only continue to accumulate science in orbit of that planet unless you reset it and lose the science.  That would be a very good way to fix it in fact, it makes it worthwhile to send it without making it too overpowered since you have to let it sit for a long time and you have to bring it back (which was actually a problem for LDEF after Challenger exploded).  Of course science gain around Kerbin would be minimal compared to like Jool (typical of current science).

Edited August 18, 2016 by Alshain

[Joonatan1998]

I like the fact that not all experiments are tiny things trivial to just slap on a craft.

[Crocket]

On 8/17/2016 at 4:11 PM, Alshain said:

The size/mass and the fact it can only be used once are a perfect storm for making the part undesirable.

I play on Science mode, so the one-use aspect isn't so terrible. I can always use a Scientist as a pilot and have him EVA out and restore it so I can use it once again. In Career, you just need to include another capsule for your Scientist.

[Alshain]

3 minutes ago, Crocket said:

I play on Science mode, so the one-use aspect isn't so terrible. I can always use a Scientist as a pilot and have him EVA out and restore it so I can use it once again. In Career, you just need to include another capsule for your Scientist.

You are forgetting cost.  Carrying a scientist around for one unnecessary experiment is not exactly a smart way to play career, and that is on top of the cost to take the thing to space in the first place.  Not that you can't do it, mind you, but it doesn't seem worth it to me when I can send a thermometer, barometer, pressure scanner, and gravity scanner to every planet pretty cheap and finish most (if not all) of the tech tree without even landing (and personally I find doing that a lot more fun).

[Crocket]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

Carrying a scientist around for one unnecessary experiment is not exactly a smart way to play career, and that is on top of the cost to take the thing to space in the first place.

I use my Scientist for every experiment I have on-board to take the data and (if needed) restore the experiment. If you just use the Scientist for the SciJr, that's a pretty big waste of mass.

[Alshain]

Just now, Crocket said:

I use my Scientist for every experiment I have on-board to take the data and (if needed) restore the experiment. If you just use the Scientist for the SciJr, that's a pretty big waste of mass.

I believe that was my point, yes.  It is a big waste of mass, and you only need the guy for the science bay and the goo.

[Crocket]

3 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I believe that was my point, yes.  It is a big waste of mass, and you only need the guy for the science bay and the goo.

You also need the Scientist for the other experiments so you don't overwrite the previous result every time. Heck, you can even use him to get multiple Crew Reports without an inane number of capsules.

[Alshain]

2 minutes ago, Crocket said:

You also need the Scientist for the other experiments so you don't overwrite the previous result every time. Heck, you can even use him to get multiple Crew Reports without an inane number of capsules.

Or an antenna, which is a lot easier to take along

I'm sorry, but the way the game is designed right now it might as well be called "Unmanned Probe Space Program".  Alternatively you could call it "21st Century NASA"

Edited August 18, 2016 by Alshain

[Tyko]

I kind of like the high-value, but heavy and harder to use experiments - Surface Sample, Goo and Material Bay. They give me something to work on and pay back quite a bit of science. it's a nice counterpoint to the transmittable science experiments and give me additional mission parameters to plan for.

[Crocket]

Just now, Alshain said:

Or an antenna, which is a lot easier to take along

I really don't like antennas because they reduce the science amount, and it makes it quite high-risk-high-reward: get back to Kerbin in one piece or else. Oh well, different strokes.

[Alshain]

10 minutes ago, Crocket said:

I really don't like antennas because they reduce the science amount, and it makes it quite high-risk-high-reward: get back to Kerbin in one piece or else. Oh well, different strokes.

Well, as I said earlier there is 20x the science you need in the game to get to the end of the tech tree (23.53x to be perfectly exact, not counting the MPL), so it's not like you NEED to return it, you could just send it somewhere else instead.  That could be part of the problem, there is no incentive or reason to do so.  Honestly, when I do collect science I just plow through the tree as fast as I can so I can start the game for real.  Though lately I've just started career with the the required 16,918 science so I don't have to bother with the boring tech tree at all and I can still manage finances.  I wish Squad would just add a Finance-only game mode so I don't have to go to all the trouble, but I suppose they have better things to do.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Alshain

[Crocket]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

Well, as I said earlier there is 20x the science you need in the game to get to the end of the tech tree (23.53x to be perfectly exact, not counting the MPL), so it's not like you NEED to return it, you could just send it somewhere else instead.  That could be part of the problem, there is no incentive or reason to do so.

What I was saying was I don't use antennas, so I have to return anything I collect. Also, I would like an incentive to use the SciJr: I just use it for completion's sake.

[Wjolcz]

I do not understand the point of that part and try to avoid it whenever I can. Like, what even is in there that can't be put into smaller and handier containers?

Science should be actual science, not parts that magically generate you research points.

[Crocket]

5 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

I do not understand the point of that part and try to avoid it whenever I can. Like, what even is in there that can't be put into smaller and handier containers?

Science should be actual science, not parts that magically generate you research points.

I much prefer magical research points. Actual experiments to unlock individual parts would kinda ruin the fun of the game for me.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Crocket

[mattinoz]

17 hours ago, Reactordrone said:

Materials study experiments can be quite large in real life,

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/index.cfm

I'd guessimate given the relative size of the bay to Astros shoulders that bay is about 700 to 800mm square and fairly thin at about 150-200. 

So relative to a Kerbal it would be a 0.65m part not a 1.25m part.