Minmus Before Mun - Tip for new players

[Clipperride]

After taking a break from KSP I recently returned and decided to replay the Science Mode to get the hang of the stuff I'd forgotten plus the new additions.  When I first played through the Science Mode, (IMO the best way to become familiar with KSP) it seemed to make sense to head to the Mun first and then onto Minmus. It's closer so must be easier, right?

This time round and with the benefit of hindsight, I reversed that order.  Getting to Minmus is only a little more complex (as you need to tilt your orbit to match that of Minmus) but you can make huge fuel savings during landings, especially if you are a cautious beginner.  There are also plenty of mirror flat areas to practice your landings on.  The lower Minmus gravity makes landing a slower and less intense experience whilst you're learning the ropes. Low escape velocity and orbital speed means you don't need that much fuel to get your crew (along with all those lovely Science Points) back home. You can build a useable Minmus Mission vechile without having to unlock too many science nodes on the tech tree and really get the hang of the game before heading to the less forgiving Mun.

So, if you are new to KSP dont just assume that your first off world adventures have to take place on the Mun.

Happy Landings.....

[Kosmognome]

Landing on the Mun first aligns better with the contracts when in career. You get Fly-by Mun / land on mun / Explore Mun / Plant flag on Mun usually long before the Minmus ones.

 

Furthermore if you can land on Minmus, you can land on the Mun. You only need the first pad upgrade and some basic science, and you are good to go.

 

[DD_bwest]

yea when i was learning the ropes, minmus was generally first, because there are alot of things you can do easier on it.   especially landing..

but after i became more seasoned, i began to like to save it as long as possible so that i can plan my Mega Minmus Mission. Single launch trip it includes a landing in every biome with a scientist restoring things after each sub mission lol to get mat bay, goo can, temp, atmo, accel, and gravioli  data, as well as the eva and surface sample.  

it also generally is a very profitable mission as well if you plan it right lol

[Clipperride]

1 hour ago, Kosmognome said:

Landing on the Mun first aligns better with the contracts when in career. You get Fly-by Mun / land on mun / Explore Mun / Plant flag on Mun usually long before the Minmus ones.

 

Furthermore if you can land on Minmus, you can land on the Mun. You only need the first pad upgrade and some basic science, and you are good to go.

 

Very true for Career Mode, but for newcomers, IMO, Science Mode is a good place to start as it allows you to learn the basics and test numerous designs without worrying about the cost.  Once you've unlocked the tech tree you should be in great shape to restart in Career Mode.

7 minutes ago, DD_bwest said:

yea when i was learning the ropes, minmus was generally first, because there are alot of things you can do easier on it.   especially landing..

but after i became more seasoned, i began to like to save it as long as possible so that i can plan my Mega Minmus Mission. Single launch trip it includes a landing in every biome with a scientist restoring things after each sub mission lol to get mat bay, goo can, temp, atmo, accel, and gravioli  data, as well as the eva and surface sample.  

it also generally is a very profitable mission as well if you plan it right lol

That's one of the joys of KSP - there are so many ways to play.  I prefer playing in Science Mode and setting my own goals at the Kerbin taxpayers expense!

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

3 hours ago, Clipperride said:

After taking a break from KSP I recently returned and decided to replay the Science Mode to get the hang of the stuff I'd forgotten plus the new additions.  When I first played through the Science Mode, (IMO the best way to become familiar with KSP) it seemed to make sense to head to the Mun first and then onto Minmus. It's closer so must be easier, right?

This time round and with the benefit of hindsight, I reversed that order.  Getting to Minmus is only a little more complex (as you need to tilt your orbit to match that of Minmus) but you can make huge fuel savings during landings, especially if you are a cautious beginner.  There are also plenty of mirror flat areas to practice your landings on.  The lower Minmus gravity makes landing a slower and less intense experience whilst you're learning the ropes. Low escape velocity and orbital speed means you don't need that much fuel to get your crew (along with all those lovely Science Points) back home. You can build a useable Minmus Mission vechile without having to unlock too many science nodes on the tech tree and really get the hang of the game before heading to the less forgiving Mun.

So, if you are new to KSP dont just assume that your first off world adventures have to take place on the Mun.

Happy Landings.....

Tsk-tsk, Mun is easier, if more dV, 'cause inclination and a tiny SOI.

[Geschosskopf]

Definitely go to Minmus first.  If you can plunk down a lander with 3500m/s when it 1st hits the ground (which is actually fairly trivial), you can hit every single biome in 1 trip, come home with thousands of science, and then go to Mun with a better, more capable rocket.

[Firemetal]

44 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Tsk-tsk, Mun is easier, if more dV, 'cause inclination and a tiny SOI.

The Mun is easier to get to and get back from. However when I first started, I had trouble killing my velocity to land on the Mun. Also doing Minimus first allows the player to learn about plain changes.

Minimus was much easier for me. I definitely approve this beginner's tip!

[Geschosskopf]

2 hours ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Tsk-tsk, Mun is easier, if more dV, 'cause inclination and a tiny SOI.

Neither of these is an issue.  Wait to leave until Minmus has about 1/4 to 1/3 of its orbit to go before it arrives at one of its ascending or descending nodes with Kerbin.  Then create your transfer burn just before you get to the opposite node, and adjust your prograde/retrograde burn strength until you hit Minmus on or about the node it's heading towards.  You might have to go a ways beyond and hit it on the way back, but it's still no problem, and no inclination change to worry about.

[Superfluous J]

I'd say try both, because I for one found Minmus quite daunting and Mun very easy, when staring. It depends on if you are comfortable with the plane change (or figure out how to ignore it).

So the beginner should try both, and whichever one seems easier they should do first.

[Kosmognome]

4 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Neither of these is an issue.  Wait to leave until Minmus has about 1/4 to 1/3 of its orbit to go before it arrives at one of its ascending or descending nodes with Kerbin.  Then create your transfer burn just before you get to the opposite node, and adjust your prograde/retrograde burn strength until you hit Minmus on or about the node it's heading towards.  You might have to go a ways beyond and hit it on the way back, but it's still no problem, and no inclination change to worry about.

The whole thing was build on the premise that it is for new players....

 

A Mun fly-by is far easier then Minmus. No Inclination, much bigger SOI to hit etc. So I#d say in terms of orbit & fly-by, Mun is still easier. In terms of landing obviously Minmus is easier (I man c'mon, you can land with the Jetpack alone), but you need to reach it, first.

And new players will have more problems with inclination changes and hitting the smaller SOI then seasoned players that know what they are doing.

 

I regularly land on the mun without upgrading *any* building (So I neither have maneuver nodes, nor see the SOI changes ann the patched conics), but I wouldn't expect any newb to do that. I wouldn't do that on Minmus.... hitting the Mun is easy (Just hit 95° transfer angle) hitting minmus without nodes is just plain annoying

 

So tl;dr: Landing is easier on minmus, getting there is easier for the Mun.

[Geschosskopf]

7 hours ago, Kosmognome said:

The whole thing was build on the premise that it is for new players....

Which is why I said this.  New players might not know that trick.  Now they do.

[Warzouz]

Minmus is a bit harder to get to, but much easier to land on for a first landing. As for a new game for a regular player, It depends on how you'll explore both bodies.

As for science game mode, I agree that's it's the best way to discover the game. You have access to limited parts which reduce the "overwhelming" effect and you don't have to bother about part count limitations and funds.

True, that you're not encouraged to build efficiently, but that can be learned later.

As for my first game experience, I remember planing an orbiting Mun mission from which I didn't know really how to get back to earth... Then I remember a chaotic landing on Minmus :D. Then Mun landing and a dual mission Ike + Duna. Then a massive Jool exploration.

 

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

13 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I'd say try both, because I for one found Minmus quite daunting and Mun very easy, when staring. It depends on if you are comfortable with the plane change (or figure out how to ignore it).

So the beginner should try both, and whichever one seems easier they should do first.

Yeah, in my experience Minmus is harder than Mun, but it changes from player to player

[Sharpy]

One thing: once you have the essentials like plane matching and encounter finding - which you definitely SHOULD learn because they are essential - getting Minmus encounter is very easy.

Meanwhile, I consider myself a seasoned player. and two days ago Mun gave me a run for my money, sticking the landing. Being used to forgiving bodies that don't cause problems for 'randomly' built landers, feeling flippant as 'seasoned player', I made a lander that defied several important rules - and spent four hours reloading and retrying the landing, before I gave up and rebuilt the lander following the 'proper rules': bottom-heavy, wide/squat base, plenty of control authority - in short, very hard to flip over, even if it hits a slope, moving sideways at some considerable speed.

Minmus?

I decided I still have fuel in my transfer stage, so no point discarding it before landing. left the lander standing on a stack of a Poodle and orange tank, with SAS on, and went picking the samples and flanting the plags. By the time I flanted 8 plags, the craft had some 30 degrees of tilt... I got in and flew away.

But Mun is unforgiving. Trajectorizing Minmus encounter is ten times easier than sticking a landing on the Mun.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Sharpy

[Clipperride]

I'd reckon it's well worth learning about plane changes early in your KSP experience as it can often be essential for getting close to another object for docking.

1 hour ago, Warzouz said:

As for science game mode, I agree that's it's the best way to discover the game. You have access to limited parts which reduce the "overwhelming" effect and you don't have to bother about part count limitations and funds.

True, that you're not encouraged to build efficiently, but that can be learned later.

 

 

Looking back at most of my early designs, they were incredibly over engineered for the mission they were built for.  But it did teach me how to get heavy loads into orbit which is handy later on.  My current Minmus lander is a fraction of the weight of my first attempts and does everything the original did.

Of course, there isn't a "right" way to learn the game, but IMO Science Mode gives a new player the best chance.  You're not overwhelmed with the choices presented by Sandbox nor frustrated by the need to earn funds to finance your dreams in Career Mode.

Naturally, your experience may differ!

Edited August 22, 2016 by Clipperride

[wumpus]

9 hours ago, Kosmognome said:

So tl;dr: Landing is easier on minmus, getting there is easier for the Mun.

Landing on Mun is brutal.  On 1.1.3 I've managed to slide for nearly a full minute on a 13 degree slope.  Good luck finding anything flatter than that.  You *need* Kerbal Engineer installed to find a flat piece of Mun to land on, anything else is heading to grief (I wonder how it is going for those starting on consoles).  So not only do you have to fight the higher Mun gravity, you have to do it *all* *the* *time* you are hunting for that flat piece of Mun (newbie hint: the huge purple parts of Minmus are absolutely flat).

The Mun I learned on didn't seem to have those issues (.2x something), but they've made Munar geography beginner unfriendly now.  I'd easily recommend Minmus to any beginner, just point out to make sure the inclination is right.

If you are too worried about the delta-v, I'm sure you can slingshot around Mun to make it less (total) than Mun.  Not only does the slingshot increase your velocity (you only need ~100 m/s more), it should also do wonders for the capture burn (by decreasing the needed angle).  Unfortunately I can't really recommend this plan for anybody who hasn't already landed on both surfaces.

[Geschosskopf]

14 hours ago, Kosmognome said:

So tl;dr: Landing is easier on minmus, getting there is easier for the Mun.

I dunno.  The only difference between getting to Mun and going to Minmus is that you can go to  Mun once per orbit, every orbit your ship makes.  OTOH, with Minmus, you can only leave on certain days of the month, when Minmus is in the right place on its orbit relative to its ascending/descending nodes with Kerbin.  If you wait for one of those spots, then getting to Minmus is no harder than getting to Mun.  It's only if you want to leave right now, regardless of where MInmus is, that you run into trouble.

[Kosmognome]

6 hours ago, wumpus said:

Landing on Mun is brutal.

No it isn't. Its not as easy as on Minmus, but its not "brutal".

 

 You *need* Kerbal Engineer installed to find a flat piece of Mun to land on

No you don#t. people have landed on the Mun since long before KER and continue to do so without KER even today. 

 

With the ability to simply set SAS to "follow retrograde" a munar landing has beome much easier then it used to be. Its still slightly more difficult then on other bodies, but you exaggerate immoderately.

 

 

If you are too worried about the delta-v, I'm sure you can slingshot around Mun to make it less (total) than Mun.  Not only does the slingshot increase your velocity (you only need ~100 m/s more), it should also do wonders for the capture burn (by decreasing the needed angle).  Unfortunately I can't really recommend this plan for anybody who hasn't already landed on both surfaces.

 

We are talking about beginners and you are talking about slingshots. Great. a beginner who has never even landed on another body will in 99% of all cases not bother with slingshots.

[wumpus]

8 minutes ago, Kosmognome said:

With the ability to simply set SAS to "follow retrograde" a munar landing has beome much easier then it used to be. Its still slightly more difficult then on other bodies, but you exaggerate immoderately.

Unfortunately, this also means losing a ton of science in career mode (Jeb and Val can do this, but only Bob can keep resetting the science experiments.  The octoprobe can supply basic SAS but not "follow retrograde".  But the big problem isn't "follow retrograde" (although it certainly helps) the big problem is finding a flat place to land.  And making a wide-body lander is going to be penalized by the new aero-model (build it wide enough to land on the Mun and watch it flip).

Just land on Minmus.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

For new players, I recommend simply getting into low Mun orbit then heading back to Kerbin before plotting any landing missions- you can get a ton of relatively risk-free science this way which can then beef up the landing missions.

[DD_bwest]

6 minutes ago, wumpus said:

Unfortunately, this also means losing a ton of science in career mode (Jeb and Val can do this, but only Bob can keep resetting the science experiments.  The octoprobe can supply basic SAS but not "follow retrograde".  But the big problem isn't "follow retrograde" (although it certainly helps) the big problem is finding a flat place to land.  And making a wide-body lander is going to be penalized by the new aero-model (build it wide enough to land on the Mun and watch it flip).

Just land on Minmus.

If you stack round 8's ontop of eachother, they sorta clip into eachother and essentially remove part of the tank from taking up space.  doing this, you can fit more fuel into a smaller area(but at the same weight ratio). this will allow you to make landers that arent so tall.

 

and just aim for the center of a crater..

 

 

[dire]

Disclaimer: I do career plays. It is a different experience with a science play.

With a career play, it is reasonably easy to hit a munar orbit with the basic,starting tracking center. I've never even bothered to attempt a Minmus landing without a level 2 tracking center because I know, using my crude eyeball-and-pants-seat methods, I'm never going to get anywhere near its SOI without some relatively precise burns.

This reason means (in my opinion) that it's much much easier to get a Mun landing than a Minmus landing in the early career. Sure the landing is a little more difficult. I've never actually run into a problem when I actually used lander legs on a one-person munar craft. Sure, if I'm building a Big Orange on top of a poodle with a Mk 1-2 command pod, a full mining rig and converter, and a tower of science, I'm going to have a bit of trouble landing on the Mun and not toppling over (protip: you need a trio of full-size slanted wings, preferably with tail fins on the end, to act as landing pylons).

I would argue that, if those technologies are even available to you, you are probably at least one tech tier overdue for a landing -somewhere-.

Edited August 23, 2016 by dire

[magnemoe]

9 hours ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

For new players, I recommend simply getting into low Mun orbit then heading back to Kerbin before plotting any landing missions- you can get a ton of relatively risk-free science this way which can then beef up the landing missions.

Yes, this also tend to be an career contract too. Once you unlock eva do eva report on biomes around Kerbin, if fuel enough go into high orbit to get that biome. 
land, next off is Mun orbit, at this point I unlock probe cores and solar panels and starting using scientists. 

Now for new players Minmus is much easier to land on, easiest way to get to it is to get into an fairly high orbit around kerbin, match your plane with Minmus and then do an intercept. 
Its inefficient, might cost 200 m/s but foolproof. main benefit is that minmus is much easier to land on, you should be able to land on most biomes with the same dV cost as an single Mun landing. 
With all the data, surface samples, goo and material lab eva from space over biome on ladder or jumping you should unlock a lot, I tend to prioritize the lower part of the tech tree, getting all the science instruments have an nice synergy, also unlock rover parts.
Next mission to Minmus will be an wrap up, you now have the gravity and seismic sensor good solar panels and better rockets, so you can do the rest of the biomes, easy if you leave the transfer stage with some fuel in it and can dock. 

You have not touched Mun yet, but  will start working on it while the Minmus followup is underway. if you are experienced make an lander with rover wheels, land where the east-west canyon intercept the huge crater, that area has 7-8 biomes inside of 5 km another landing in the huge crater west of that canyon and crater, land on the crater edge for four biomes including the two polar ones. Then this mission and the Minmus one return you have unlocked the science tree. 

[Magzimum]

On 22-8-2016 at 8:34 AM, Kosmognome said:

So tl;dr: Landing is easier on minmus, getting there is easier for the Mun.

Totally agree with the above quote.

Newbies should start at the beginning, and it all starts with "getting there", so go to the Mun first. And probably crash.

Then start working on step 2, which is "landing", and realize that you may want to try Minmus first.

All of you experienced players fail to realize btw that from the Map view Minmus' Midlands, Lowlands and Highlands look just as flat as the Flats... newbies are quite likely to land their top-heavy lander on a hill on Minmus too - with just the same consequences as on the Mun. Lower gravity of Minmus makes it easier than the Mun, but the Flats only make it easier once you realize what they are and what they look like so that you can aim for it... and by the time you can "aim for a landing spot", and you also know what the Flats look like from above, you're an experienced player, not a newbie.

 

[Sharpy]

12 hours ago, Kosmognome said:

No it isn't. Its not as easy as on Minmus, but its not "brutal".

[...]

Quote

No you don#t. people have landed on the Mun since long before KER and continue to do so without KER even today. 

 

Did you do any Mun landings in 1.1.3 using landing legs recently?

New players don't know landing legs are frictionless. And as result, Mun landing for them IS brutal.

I was doing a LOT of Mun landing in 1.0.3. I took a mission. Built an outpost on the Moon: Antena, docking port, generate power. 14 kerbals. Laboratory. 6000 units of liquid fuel On wheels.

As result, I built a train of 6 cars on the Mun - 2 passenger cars for 14 kerbals total, a laboratory, 2 orange tanks, and an ISRU car.  Plus two ore prospector rovers, plus a lifter. A good dozen landings if not counting countless short flights by the rovers (flying on ion engines). Some landings at night. And I got it into my head, to make things interesting, that I'll build it in a canyon. It was easy.

Recently, I had a simple mission: deliver 3250 units of ore to Kerbin. I spent good 4 hours trying just to stick the landing, because I made the lander a bit too top-heavy. At last I gave up, rebuilt the lander adding structural pylons for very wide landing legs and the landing wasn't entirely easy either.

Meanwhile, landing on Minmus is...

Yeah, decided what the heck, I have more fuel than I need, I won't decouple the 'command/reentry' module, and took the whole thing: lander, and command/reentry to the surface. The lander is above, with the widely set wheels to make landing on slopes easy. The MK2 cabin and MK1 pod are the command/reentry part. The five kerbals managed to plant the flags, take all the science and pose to the photo. Meanwhile, the craft, left on SAS from the probe core, leaned from straight upright, to the angle as visible in the picture. THIS is landing on Minmus.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Sharpy