Balanced career settings?

[run1235]

jsut wondering what suggestiosn you guys have for the 1.1.3 carrer settings to make it a more balanced game. (i.e each launch has to accomplish something to pay for the launch, a setting to not drown in science the instant i get to the mun/minmus etc. i'm already using far/deadly re-entry to try and make the gameplay itself harder. i'll also provide a full mod list if that will help people figure out a balanced settings. normal is to easy and hard destroys my space program, and i feel no difference between normal/moderate.

Spoiler

KSP: 1.1.3 (Win64) - Unity: 5.2.4f1 - OS: Windows 10  (10.0.0) 64bit
USI Tools - 0.7.4
B9 Part Switch - 1.4.3
B9 Aerospace Procedural Parts - 0.40.7
Community Resource Pack - 0.5.4
Contract Configurator - 1.19
Contract Pack: Anomaly Surveyor - 1.7
CC-CP-SCANSat - 0.6.0.1
Contract Pack: Field Research - 1.2
Contract Pack: Giving Aircraft a Purpose - 1.2.8
Contract Pack: Bases and Stations - 3.4
Contract Pack: Sounding Rockets - 1.2
Rover Missions - 0.1.6
Contract Pack: Tourism Plus - 1.5.1
Crowd Sourced Science - 3.0.2
CustomBarnKit - 1.1.9
Deadly Reentry - 7.4.7
DMagic Orbital Science - 1.3.0.2
EditorExtensionsRedux - 3.2.14
Ferram Aerospace Research - 0.15.7.2
Firespitter - 7.3
Interstellar Fuel Switch - 2.1.4
Kerbal Attachment System - 0.5.9
Kerbal Engineer Redux - 1.1.1
Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - 3.2
Kerbal Inventory System - 1.2.12
KSP-AVC Plugin - 1.1.6.1
ModularFlightIntegrator - 1.1.6
NearFutureConstruction - 0.6.4
NearFutureElectrical - 0.7.8
NearFuturePropulsion - 0.7.4
NearFutureSolar - 0.6.2
NearFutureSpacecraft - 0.5.1
Kerbal Planetary Base Systems - 1.1.4
PlanetShine - 0.2.5
Procedural Parts - 1.2.5
RCS Build Aid - 0.8.1
RemoteTech - 1.7.1
SCANsat - 1.1.6.6
SETI-Contracts - 0.9.7.1
SETI-ProbeControlEnabler - 1.0.8.2
SETI-ProbeParts - 1.0.1.1
SETI-Rebalance - 0.9.7.2
SETI-RebalanceMaterialsGoo - 1.0.9
SETI-RemoteTechConfig - 1.0.9
SmartParts - 1.9
StageRecovery - 1.6.4
TakeCommand - 1.4.1
TAC Life Support - 0.12.4
TrackingStationAmbientlight - 0.3.3
Trajectories - 1.6.3
Alternate Resource Panel - 2.8.1
TweakScale - 2.2.13
USI Core - 0.2.4
Karbonite - 0.7.4
Karbonite Plus - 0.6.4
Konstruction - 0.1
Sounding Rockets - 0.4.4
Unmanned before Manned - 1.0.9.6
VenStockRevamp - 1.9.5
Waypoint Manager - 2.5.3

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by run1235

[Kermanzooming]

For me, one of the things that impacts career mode balance is the lack of time constraints.

Contracts have expiration dates, but as you can launch a mission every minute if you like, the expiration dates are meaningless.

That's why I want to test a 1.2 career with Kerbal Construction Time, which makes you take time for each ship build.

[run1235]

3 minutes ago, Kermanzooming said:

For me, one of the things that impacts career mode balance is the lack of time constraints.

Contracts have expiration dates, but as you can launch a mission every minute if you like, the expiration dates are meaningless.

That's why I want to test a 1.2 career with Kerbal Construction Time, which makes you take time for each ship build.

i've tried cct and to me, at least in the early game i'ts more fo a hassel than anything, especially when i'm pre-programmed to click the stock recovery button instead of the cct button so i'm losing the parts from the ship every time.

[Kermanzooming]

2 minutes ago, run1235 said:

i've tried cct 

How is it on the early game? How long does it take a simple rocket?

[run1235]

5 minutes ago, Kermanzooming said:

How is it on the early game? How long does it take a simple rocket?

around 1wk to 30days for my game at least(using modded parts) but something as simple as usi's sounding rocket should take less than a week. >.>;

that's with the mod's settings that it initially has.

Edited September 23, 2016 by run1235

[Streetwind]

I also heartily recommend Kerbal Construction Time. It may feel jarring at the start to have to timewarp forward to even put a pod on the launchpad, but that's largely due to being used to things being instant. And you'll find that the mechanics that govern build time are far more intricate than you think - with being able to selectively add or upgrade multiple production lines, often-build parts getting faster everytime they are built, and recovered parts going into an inventory from which they can be pulled in a matter of hours. Not to mention that every aspect of the mod is freely configurable.

But this post is more about career settings, so...

Usually I leave the funds slider fairly high up. Limiting funds, I find, does little to improve the fun in gameplay, particularly because the game is sorta front-loaded with funds. You get huge amounts thrown at you during your first couple flights, due to various records and milestones triggering in rapid succession. This may make you think that there's way too much money and that you can safely lower the slider... and then you get past the early game, and you start discovering that you struggle to even make your money back on a contract, much less turn a profit. Some people like to be challenged by this; they try to fit as many contracts into single launches as possible, use borderline exploity tricks (like fulfilling multiple satellite launch contracts with the same satellite) and switch to reusable spaceplanes as early as possible. Me? I find this grindy and unimmersive. I don't like flying spaceplanes either, they just take so looooong to launch and reenter. So I play with maybe 80% funds. But it's really up to where your limits of patience lie, what you find challenging, and how you usually choose to solve your problems.

Science can safely be pulled down a lot lower, I feel. Especially when you have mods like DMagic Orbital Science installed. But even stock alone is perfectly possible to play at something like 50% without resorting to do any nonsenical rolling around the space center "biomes". Yet that, too, is a question of how you approach the game. Are you someone who considers the game only really starting once you have unlocked 3.75m launchers and LV-N motors (AKA "sandbox with funds and contracts")? Or are you in it for the journey of progression through the tree? I'm more of the latter guy. I enjoy the challenge of having to make missions work with a limited selection of parts. Most people wait for 2.5m parts before sending a Kerbal to the Mun; but what if you had to do it with 1.25m parts, because there just isn't enough science for anything bigger until you get to the Mun? Now that's interesting to me! Every precious tech node feels so much more meaningful, and is carefully chosen with respect to what important upcoming missions it might enable. And still having tech nodes left to unlock when going interplanetary is a bonus too. Makes it feel a little less like the game is already over before you even leave Kerbin's SOI.

This advice is for stock, or stockalike modded installs. As far as your heavily modded install goes... I frankly have no idea what values are good for that. SETI changes things a lot, especially with its own tech tree, and I have no experience in how much in the way of funds and science it takes to progress. You may have more success getting useful answers to this question if you posted in the SETI mod thread.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Streetwind

[Kermanzooming]

Hope I could click 'Like' more times, because your post is exactly what I think about career mode...

1 hour ago, Streetwind said:

But even stock alone is perfectly possible to play at something like 50% without resorting to do any nonsenical rolling around the space center "biomes"

Not 'spamming' science from the KSC biomes changes completely the game; the early stages become meaningful and challenging, and forces you to always go a little bit further away on your next mission

1 hour ago, Streetwind said:

Most people wait for 2.5m parts before sending a Kerbal to the Mun; but what if you had to do it with 1.25m parts, because there just isn't enough science for anything bigger until you get to the Mun? Now that's interesting to me! Every precious tech node feels so much more meaningful, and is carefully chosen with respect to what important upcoming missions it might enable. And still having tech nodes left to unlock when going interplanetary is a bonus too. Makes it feel a little less like the game is already over before you even leave Kerbin's SOI.

Right on the spot! Most people say the game is over before leaving Kerbin's SOI because they have gone so quick through the early tech nodes that they have everything at hand for science-ransacking the Mun and Minmus, and with all the science there you can basically unlock the whole tech tree.

[eddiew]

One of the frustrations I find is that the early-game and mid-game have such different requirements for 'challenging'. By the time you're on your 3rd trip to Mun, you're starting to get swamped with science and funds; but if you turn them down too low, then you get so starved at the start that you can't even afford to unlock basic tail fins, which really makes things painful.

I'm a bit out of tune with stock, but I'm currently using some planet packs and DMagic Orbital, which means my potential for science income is huge, but getting to some of the outer planets to return that data is challenging. Offsetting this, I use community tech tree, along with Space Y, Near Future, Atomic Age, and KR&D in order to provide science sinks. KR&D in particular can soak an infinite amount of points, making the question more about how godlike you want to be in the late game, rather than whether or not you always want to be chasing a new piece of tech. Drop 50,000 science points into aerospikes and feel free to land on Eve at sea level with an SSTO  

On the whole, I think my next career will be something along the lines of:

Funding: 50%
Science: 20% plus 100 starting points to get over the day-1 hump. I've done that part of the game a lot anyway, no need to linger.
Rep: 100%, no loss when declining contracts.
Restricted use of orbital labs: if it transmits for 100%, it must be transmitted and not labinated.

It would be possible to cut funding back further, if you enjoy having to scrimp on mission costs. Personally I prefer to chase science and technologies - but my current game with 80% has resulted in a 32 million budget surplus after just a few interplanetary crew runs. That's a tad overkill even for me  

[Leopard]

Think perhaps having the science rewards variable would work, specifically tied to the rate you're accumulating in real time (not game time so no warping time to adapt this, if you can warp real time I'd keep it to yourself).

e.g. you start the game with nothing and a defined rate, if you start earning fast, the rewards drop off a bit, earning slowly you get a bit more.

In effect you can get a boost early in the game when its harder to earn a lot, but later its better to earn small increments than huge chunks.

 

That and a lot more granularity in the parts, e.g. a part having an 'early' version, more expensive, less efficient and heavier, a normal one as now then a refined one which is lighter but perhaps more expensive - and you can only unlock these by using them?

[Aegolius13]

12 hours ago, run1235 said:

 a setting to not drown in science the instant i get to the mun/minmus etc.

Just spitballing, it might be nice to have a mechanic that provides for diminishing science returns for data from a given celestial body.  For example, as you take a surface sample across various biomes on the Mun, the science output for each one goes down.  This seems realistic, as we would learn a lot more new stuff about the Mun from the first sample than we would from the tenth sample, even if samples from other parts were a little different.  This might also require you to go interplanetary to max out the tech tree, which is too easy to do now just grinding the moons.  

Alternatively, this might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe there should be fewer lunar biomes (especially on the Mun).  It just promotes grinding by taking a science hopper from a station to the surface and back, which is not exactly exciting.  

Of course, science labs would probably need an overhaul as well.  I think they're still way too powerful.  Maybe rather than granting extra science (and a multiplier at that), they should just let to access the "recover" value of data without taking the data back to Kerbin.  Or maybe the lab should be the only way to reset Mystery Goo and the Science Jr.. Or give the lab some unique experiment of its own, rather than multiplying data from other experiments.  

[Mastikator]

If you feel like TAC is too easy then Kerbalism might be for you, it adds radiation, equipment malfunction and stress.

[Tyko]

On 9/22/2016 at 9:57 PM, run1235 said:

around 1wk to 30days for my game at least(using modded parts) but something as simple as usi's sounding rocket should take less than a week. >.>;

that's with the mod's settings that it initially has.

in Scott Manley's Interstellar quest series he decided to institute a self-imposed limit of one launch every 7 days. This seems like a good simple middle ground between CCT and "launch as fast as I can"

[barsandcat]

Currently playing with 50% science and 50% funds. Very happy. Halved science makes early game challenging. But later in game you got tons of science any way. I've sent lab to the Ike, from like 2 landings, Kerbol fly by, Duna fly by, lab generated over 10000 science! But thanks to halved funds, late game is still interesting - like most of that science I had to sell, because I could not afford Lv3 Research building. And huge launch cost later in game adds some challenge.

[Guest]

I don't enjoy grinding for funds, so I've kept the funds rewards at 100%.

I do enjoy being hungry for science, so I've dialed that down to 60%.

Lately I also usually start a career with some science and some funds so I can start doing space missions right away; the "launch your first vessel," "escape the atmosphere," and "orbit Kerbin" milestones aren't all that interesting once you've done them a few times.

[Blaarkies]

On 9/23/2016 at 5:48 AM, run1235 said:

carrer settings to make it a more balanced game. (i.e each launch has to accomplish something to pay for the launch, a setting to not drown in science the instant i get to the mun/minmus etc. 

Balanced seems like "hard" or 50%, depending on personal skill. That will max out techtree after almost completely farming kerbin soi. The toughest i tried was "hard" but with 30% rewards, no contract-science, no strategy-science, no MPL-science. It was actually really fun, you go mad with launch costs and re-usablility, there is a tough wall to climb over before the first mun landing...but it is definitely possible to max out the tree, only after many interplanetary landings

[Norcalplanner]

Once 1.2 drops and certain mods have been updated, my plan is to do a new 3.2x scale modded career with 100% funding, 80% rep, and 60% science. With Community Tech Tree to soak up more science, and what I'm sure will be a number of mods featuring the new part upgrade mechanics, I think this should hit the sweet spot for me. I may end up tweaking the funding down a bit, but I enjoy setting up infrastructure so I don't want to start out too low. I'm also going to give KCT another go.

[Superfluous J]

On 9/23/2016 at 6:44 AM, eddiew said:

Funding: 50%
Science: 20% plus 100 starting points to get over the day-1 hump. I've done that part of the game a lot anyway, no need to linger.
Rep: 100%, no loss when declining contracts.
Restricted use of orbital labs: if it transmits for 100%, it must be transmitted and not labinated.

I think I'm going to try something like this on my next mostly-stock career, except I'll probably still start with 0% rep and keep my personal record of "never ever use a lab" intact. I have also strongly considered reducing Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus science gains further, to offset my almost intense need to use Automated Science Sampler

On 9/23/2016 at 0:30 PM, Aegolius13 said:

Just spitballing, it might be nice to have a mechanic that provides for diminishing science returns for data from a given celestial body.

I love this idea. Sadly that information seems to be stored per game install and not per save, so you can't edit your save file or do some sort of shenanigans like that. I suppose you could set up a ModuleManager config to limit the science per body, and after every mission go in and tweak them down. And restart the game.

I need to stop thinking "I could mod that I bet" when deep down I know I can't. I'm going to look into it though. As with all the other mods I dream up, I can see each step in my head but I just know that each one is harder than I think it is.

Edited September 29, 2016 by 5thHorseman

[eddiew]

29 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I think I'm going to try something like this on my next mostly-stock career, except I'll probably still start with 0% rep and keep my personal record of "never ever use a lab" intact. I have also strongly considered reducing Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus science gains further, to offset my almost intense need to use Automated Science Sampler

Yes, absolutely, I have used Celestial Body Science editor to do just that in the past. Bringing them to 1.5 and Kerbin to 0.5 is quite satisfying - but you do need that initial kick to start else you get into trouble when all you have is tiny tanks and no fins or decouplers    

This career I took a looser approach and limited myself to 2 uses of the same experiment in the same situation on the same body, e.g. a temperature scan from Mun's midlands and craters, and then I can no longer take a thermometer there. Mostly I can't be bothered going back just because I unlocked a new experiment, so it really drove me out into the deeper system and I've now landed on Duna, Ike, Moho, Eve, Pol, Bop, some of the OPM moons, and I have a lander prepped in orbit of Laythe as I type   And I'm still at only 32,000 science of the 100,000 required to unlock the super-OP warp drive... We must go deeper!

29 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I need to stop thinking "I could mod that I bet" when deep down I know I can't. I'm going to look into it though. As with all the other mods I dream up, I can see each step in my head but I just know that each one is harder than I think it is.

I would love to see diminishing returns, thus saving me the need to wonder whether I've been her once, or twice. Also preventing me from breaking the rules, like I did with my 6-biome Moho rover  

Edited September 29, 2016 by eddiew

[Nich]

Honestly hard would be easy if you allowed quick saves and reverts. I sent a one way probe to land on Mun and Minimus with all the beginner contracts that net me something like 2 mil kredits.  Used that money to upgrade all my facilities and launched a Mun lander with enough dv to hit 3-4 biomes (900ish).  That same lander can hit every biome on Minimus (2000ish) and My level 2 science facility is maxed out and I now have he tech to hit duna, ike, gilly, moho, dres, and most of the joul system.

My biggest complaint about the science is Mun and Minimus need to switch places and Minimus needs its science cut in half.

[monstah]

5 minutes ago, Nich said:

My biggest complaint about the science is Mun and Minimus need to switch places

Eh?  You mean, physically? What's that got to do with science?

[Waxing_Kibbous]

11 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

I don't enjoy grinding for funds, so I've kept the funds rewards at 100%.

I do enjoy being hungry for science, so I've dialed that down to 60%.

Lately I also usually start a career with some science and some funds so I can start doing space missions right away; the "launch your first vessel," "escape the atmosphere," and "orbit Kerbin" milestones aren't all that interesting once you've done them a few times.

This is my goto setup, but I may dial it down to 80/50  because man 100% funds = money is meaningless- but like you I would rather have the limitation be tech (because I think the challenge of low-budget parts is fun), and not grind contracts for dough. I have started with 0 funds before, and that isn't a problem at all when funds are set to 100.

[Nich]

11 minutes ago, monstah said:

Eh?  You mean, physically? What's that got to do with science?

dv wise Mun is actually a bit more then Minimus.  In addition if you pack an extra 1000 dv you can hit 4 extra biomes on minimus.  If you land in the perfect spot on the mun that extra dv will only get you an extra 2 biomes and they are each worth less then the science from the Minimus biomes.

The game steers you to go to the Mun first when it really should steer you to skip the Mun entirely and go Minimus, Gilly/Ike/Duna.

If you switch Mun and Minimus physically. Then you can land on an easier equatorial Minimus but for less science.  It also helps fill in the gap sciences wise between High orbit and Mun landing which can be very difficult.  However currently after landing on the Mun it takes less dv to land on duna, ike, minimus or gilly

[RocketSquid]

I always start with a lot of science, somewhere in the low hundreds (100-300) so I can afford all of the early game nodes without going to the mun or grinding around the KSC. I also state that all incredibly grindy, fully atmospheric contracts can be freely completed with the debug menu once I have unlocked jet engines.

This still isn't always quite enough, but it removes much of the repetitive and boring aspect of the early game.