An Honest Debate

[Higgs]

Hello fellow forum goers!

I would like to start an honest debate about 2 mods. MechJeb and Kerbal Engineer Redux. Both mods are highly respected by their respective camps, and feelings and opinions run hot. I do not recall such a thread as the one I am proposing here. I know people have stooped to arguing about if MechJeb is cheating or how KER is a wonderful flight data device. What I would like to do here, is have an actual forum, not a thread or a message board, but an actual honest forum, where we can freely exchange, debate and challenge the positions of one another. Now, I am NOT advocating total anarchy where X rated language is used. No, I am opening this thread, for an honest debate, similar to the ones we see during election times, where you have 2 candidates step up to podiums and debate. So, with that said, here are the rules:

1. Be respectful of one another.
2. Civil and Polite language only.
3. Support your argument. Using phrases like: "Because thats the way I feel" "Reasons" or anything of that are strictly forbidden. Use real, fact based reasons, and if necessary use photo evidence as well.
4. Arguments must be logical, civil and fair.
5. Standard Forum Rules apply as well, with the exception: Challenging a persons point of view, position or reasoning is allowed and expected. Such challenges are critical to an open and free flowing civil debate.

With this said, I formally welcome you to the MechJeb versus Kerbal Engineer Redux Debate! Let's begin!

Sorry for this edit, but, I wanted to start the thread and then get the images for my first point in this debate.

It has been said you need Kerbal Engineer Redux for delta v stats. I counter this by saying, MechJeb can provide this as well. I will provide you with 2 images, 1 of which shows all 3 stages as a single rocket, and the other shows the stages side by side, ranging from 1.25m to 3.75m.

and side by side:

This is but a small sample, showing that, MechJeb mirrors features found in KER, with the added benefit of being an autopilot as well. Counter Point anyone?

Edited September 30, 2016 by Higgs

[Andiron]

I like them both but I'm mainly using KER, because Mechjeb makes the game too easy (Docking Autopilot, Ascent Guidance, Landing Guidance, Rendezvous Guidance, ...). It's too tempting to use these tools when you can

[Tr1gg3r]

Imho, for those like me who play on laptop with 8gd ram, we need to be bit selective in our choice of mods.

my experience with KER, it provides great info but always seemed to make my laptop work super hard, so it made sense to me to use mechjeb instead as it also has good info, plus the 'option' to use various autopilots etc

tbh i still dont know how to use either efficiently / effectively, some mods are quite complicated to use, i find it easier to fly manually sometimes.

As others have mentioned before -  if youre planning a big project with lots of crafts and manoeuvres, then id like to hand the repetitive actions over to an autopilot.

pretty sure most planes, space craft have autopilots etc

i'd actually like to see a collaboration project between some of these 'quality' mod authors and squad (wishful) 

thats my 2p.

 

[Seeker89]

I end up using both. KER mostly for the info and info on the 'hud' without more windows. And mechjeb for the autopilot. Though now there is mods that take autopilot aspects and expend on them like Throttle Controlled Avionics for landing and flying on the planet. I'm sure there is anothers. I believe because it's it a single player game, I can play how I want, but it's more rewarding when I do things myself and don't use autopilot. 

 

I still cheat with hyperedit... 

[Van Disaster]

1 hour ago, Andiron said:

I like them both but I'm mainly using KER, because Mechjeb makes the game too easy (Docking Autopilot, Ascent Guidance, Landing Guidance, Rendezvous Guidance, ...). It's too tempting to use these tools when you can

Except I've used MJ for three years, and only used anything except launch guidance once ( or maybe twice ) to see how well it works. It really *isn't* hard not to use them - if you are using them it's because you don't like doing whatever the thing you're having them do is. This is a game, if you don't like doing whatever it's, don't. If it's peer pressure telling you you shouldn't, get new peers

And finally if you have some sort of addiction, you can disable MJ modules completely in it's config so you don't even get the option.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Van Disaster

[evileye.x]

KER, because I never actually tried MechJeb. Don't feel need for an autopilot and I like KER HUDs more than MJ windows (judged by watching videos)

Edited September 30, 2016 by evileye.x

[DStaal]

I like MechJeb as a general purpose autopilot - mostly for transfer planning, docking, and landing.  I can do all of those if I need to in a pinch, but why?  It's not the fun part of the game for me.    KER's readouts are easier to read and understand in my opinion, and therefore are very useful - not only in the VAB, but also in flight.  (I also find it makes target selection of celestial bodies or other ships much easier.)  I don't really see much overlap between the two.

[Elkram]

I usually play with both installed. I use KER for the data and MJ mostly for tranfers and rendezvous. That said I did not know MJ could give all that info. In the other side I can play with MJ, sometimes I use it, sometimes dont, but If I design a rocket without the info KER gives me I feel like I'm blind.

Anyway I'm going to mess with MJ and see what data it can give me.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

I think that KER is better, as I think MechJeb cluttering the flight screen with 10 different windows makes it hard to fly, plus KER's interface is prettier and it actually provides more information, such as inclination, ship mass in flight, etc. Also, I think KER's customizability is better, as it allows me to see info I need for my playstyle and not see what I don't. Personally, MechJeb is an autopilot and nothing more, which I can do without. but KER is a critical part of my play, and it should be stock.

[technicalfool]

Some people want a full flight computer and autopilot with tons of options to tweak and twiddle. For those people, there is Mechjeb. For the really hardcore, there is kOS.

Others just want a Δv and orbital-parameters display and don't want to bloat their install up with all the extra bells and whistles. For those people, KER is awesome.

[Citizen247]

Mechjeb, I've found that most of it's information displays are no better or worse than KER, but there's more options and better customisation. KER does seem to be unable to properly judge DeltaV while in flight though, often going to 0 for no reason. I do use SmartASS to hold headings, especially for ascent and the automatic burns after I've set up the maneuver node, though I don't really use any of the other autopilot stuff.

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

MechJeb here. KER I've used but it's not my cup of tea. I'm using it now again with 1.2-pre since MJ is not yet update... and nope, I just don't like the way KER display things, and since I haven't found a value displayed by KER that's not displayed be MJ...  then MechJeb it is.

As for the automation stuff, I pretty much only use Smart A.S.S... Sometimes the auto-launch to test different designs with the same "pilot performance" to see which one is better. But other than that it's just that MJ presents the information in a way I like more.

BTW:

On 9/30/2016 at 1:15 PM, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

I think that KER is better, as I think MechJeb cluttering the flight screen with 10 different windows makes it hard to fly, plus KER's interface is prettier and it actually provides more information, such as inclination, ship mass in flight, etc. Also, I think KER's customizability is better, as it allows me to see info I need for my playstyle and not see what I don't. Personally, MechJeb is an autopilot and nothing more, which I can do without. but KER is a critical part of my play, and it should be stock.

Don't want to sound rude or anything, but this is incorrect. MJ allows you to create any kind of window/s you want with whatever info you want, among which you'll find all those you say aren't possible.

[CobaltWolf]

I use MJ because, well, I don't have time to play the game so when I'm trying to test something, I let it fly for me while I do paperwork or edit cfgs. I prefer KER's readouts tho since it looks better.

[davidy12]

6 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

I use MJ because, well, I don't have time to play the game so when I'm trying to test something, I let it fly for me while I do paperwork or edit cfgs. I prefer KER's readouts tho since it looks better.

 

Plus its how all space agencies get rockets into orbit. 

#AutopilotisHowitWorksIRL

[Madscientist16180]

I'm with the people who like them both and always play with the two installed. It is true that MechJeb have all the same info available, but i really like the way KER display are done and the very high level of customability that the mod provides.

I understand fully those who do not want auto-pilot or automatically set nodes, but after a thousand circularisation, i'm more than grateful for it lol.

 

Only true point i can make out for KER, is the TWR display which is in my opinion much more useful than the one MechJeb have. KER display max TWR as MJ, but it also dynamically show your current TWR based on throttle. I really like it when i get out of the atmosphere principally. 

 

 

[DerekL1963]

On 9/30/2016 at 9:15 AM, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

I think MechJeb cluttering the flight screen with 10 different windows makes it hard to fly

Then close the windows you don't need...   Seriously, I've played with MJ for several years now, and the most windows I ever had open on a regular basis is five - and that's only for a single specific function.  (I could get that down to two then three in the second portion if I wasn't paranoid about time constraints.)

[Matuchkin]

Pfft. I calculate by hand.

 

But I use mechjeb to fly.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Matuchkin

[Starman4308]

MechJeb here. I think I'd ragequit if I had to plot out every single maneuver by hand, particularly for routine missions like "rescue Kerbal #491238 from low Kerbin orbit". Plus, at 6.4x scale, burns can take a long time, and it's nice to be hands-off.

That said, I run ascents and descents semi-manually, maybe using Smart A.S.S. to hold my course, docking is manual... I really only use it for information, holding trajectory, and plotting/executing maneuvers*.

*And with RealFuels ullage, I need to set KAC to drop me out of warp ~10s beforehand so I can fire RCS.

[shdwlrd]

I use both. The deltaV in the VAB/SPH are usually the same. (Unless you have some odd fuel flows.) In atmospheric flight I like KER's surface info and estimated fuel times. I use MJ for most orbital operations. There are many useful tools in there to help with and/or automate maneuvers that a I don't have time to do, or don't fully understand what to do.

[TheEpicSquared]

I use KER (at least I did in 1.1.3) instead of MechJeb, because of the fact that KER provides the information in a small portion of the screen up at the top instead of MechJeb's huge windows that can take up a quarter of screen space. The info is the most important to me since I like doing everything manually, it feels more immersive that way anyway, so I don't really use MechJeb. KER is fine. However, when I play RO/RSS, MechJeb it is.

[Araym]

For displaying infos, I use KER.

For manouvers editing and autopilot (at least at launch of rockets: I'm not a so hardcore player and I ALWAYS find myself in trouble using a keyboard to play during launch, lacking the "fine control" I'd like to have) MechJeb. And as I'm not good on math, it helps to figure out (interplanetary) transfer windows in a click (even if generally then I configure manually my own, to suit the mission needs). I still go "manual" for all the orbital procedure, then: Docking is a thing, for example, I do it myself (or, just for very fine tune, at most using the SmartASS for keep me at a needed docking angle for bigger infrastructure).

For atmosphere flying, Throttle Controlled Avionics sometime could be my choice for "not balanced replica VTOLs" (... something like the F-35 or similar are very difficoult to fly without)

Visually, KER have the nicer look: I could like Mechjeb in the same format (less cluttering my poor 17'' laptop).
But basically, I have use of all of them.

[DustInTheWind]

I use both for different things.

I really like the default KER HUD and Vessel Info window (I find the vessel data very useful when running big motherships). I use the Surface window for landing on some bodies, and the Heat window for long Nuke burns and Eve descents. For in-flight data, I find KER superior mainly because of the UI. In the VAB, KER's TWR readouts based on body and altitude have prevented many a dead or stranded Kerbal.

MJ is primarily my "burn manager." I would rather do anything else during a 10 minute transfer/insertion burn than watch the timer and DV readout on the navball. I also use it to setup nodes for interplanetary transfers because, again stuff like getting a rendezvous with Eeloo is tedious otherwise. I would much rather spend four or five hours in the VAB trying to squeeze in a couple hundred more delta v than 15-20 minutes trying to get an encounter that I like.

tl;dr: I see them both as indispensable tools that simulate the staff at the KSC doing the maths for the stick jockeys. 

[jonrd463]

I am an unapologetic MechJeb user, but I also have KER installed for one reason: Easily targeting rendezvous objects. For me, a lack of time and utter boredom with the routine has me letting Mechjeb do most of the flying for rockets. SSTOs, I manually fly. Back in the early days, I did everything manually, but the scope of my gameplay has gotten such that I plan out and execute large scale ideas, and I find having to handle every single launch and maneuver by hand gets old. I respect those who do choose to do it all by hand, but I get irritated when people turn it into a contest over who's better at KSP. I get particularly irritated when it's full time streamers who have 12 hours or more a day available for them to play the game. 

[Jiraiyah]

On 10/6/2016 at 9:20 AM, jonrd463 said:

I am an unapologetic MechJeb user, but I also have KER installed for one reason: Easily targeting rendezvous objects. For me, a lack of time and utter boredom with the routine has me letting Mechjeb do most of the flying for rockets. SSTOs, I manually fly. Back in the early days, I did everything manually, but the scope of my gameplay has gotten such that I plan out and execute large scale ideas, and I find having to handle every single launch and maneuver by hand gets old. I respect those who do choose to do it all by hand, but I get irritated when people turn it into a contest over who's better at KSP. I get particularly irritated when it's full time streamers who have 12 hours or more a day available for them to play the game. 

 

I'm in same boat with you. The only thing I wish was possible, was to move the mechjeb closed tab indicator around the windows, sticking to the right side of game window is bad because when you are in launchpad, well, the stock buttons now sit there and sometimes in is hard to click on buttons under mechjeb tab indicator, this complaining aside, I think each one of them has their own benefits and usage.

In regards to flight assistant I used KER to estimate problems with plain designs but recently I found this : CorrectCoL , so, I don't know. But still, KER shows some stuff during the design that can be really useful. Also, when it comes to mechjeb and it's automation, I still use it's node planner especially for circularization and tweaking periapse for geostationary orbits

[RocketSquid]

I use both. I use MechJeb for ascents, since at this point the have become too routine and boring, and sometimes for docking since it's otherwise very tedious. For anything else I use KER, since I really don't like the appearance of the MechJeb huds.