New Kerbal class: Medics

[colmo]

This is a repost of ideas I had on the KKS thread, but may be better suited to someone interested in Kerbal careers, progression and life support. I note @RoverDude popped up on @maculator's promising Colonists mod, so apologies for pinging you but I can't think of a better qualified modder!

On 06/02/2016 at 10:19 AM, colmo said:

This started as a paragraph in the previous post but just got longer and longer...

The obvious next step for KKS is damage to Kerbals. After a certain point, they just ragdoll and could die (leaking a life signs resource?) unless strapped into a stretcher and treated for injuries. Cue emergency rescue missions, heliambulances etc. You could even spawn injured Kerbals for rescue contracts. 

This might warrant a new class of Kerbal - Medical. Different ranks and abilities would be akin to Paramedic, Junior Doctor, Doctor etc. with corresponding increase in ability to treat injured Kerbals. A Paramedic can stop them losing life signs resource (stabilise injuries), a Junior Doctor can increase life signs a small amount as well as stabilise, and the top rank can heal a Kerbal enough they can walk. 

Only a return to the Astronaut Complex completely heals a greviously injured Kerbal. Perhaps some never fully recover, and either must retire or be restricted to safe missions, were they are unlikely to get injured again, as their max life signs resource would be permanently reduced. Their acquired skills might or might not be enough to keep them around despite their disability.

 

On 06/02/2016 at 1:31 PM, colmo said:

Death would still be a puff of smoke (unless they're in cockpit), but the idea is Kerbals could be immobile through injury, requiring a stretcher part, KAS or some other means of retrieving them. A medical rescue, where time is against you as they fade away, is the dramatic motivation. Could make for exciting, nail biting missions.

Permanent disability is a more debatable mechanic. The idea is to leave you with a choice of keeping a skilled but less able Kerbal, or having to let them go.

 

On 06/02/2016 at 6:57 PM, Jenyaza said:

We can simply use Advanced Grabbing Unit. Or medic can "board" him into near Command Pod.

 

On 06/02/2016 at 8:05 PM, colmo said:

Yes, very Kerbal. There's no requirement for any additional parts, they just make picking them up a little more humanely (Kermanely?) than a toy in an arcade crane machine. A small rover with a command seat would do the job. Perhaps a proximity check for a healthy Kerbal or two covers the abstraction of the injured Kerbal being strapped in, closely enough.

 

[Jenyaza]

We can easy add "medic" class, by creating anyFileName.cfg in GameData\ with this:

EXPERIENCE_TRAIT
{
 name = Medic   // name for game, unique
 title = Medic  // name for peoples, readable
 desc = There are medics, they help to survive other crewmembers
}

and you can see some medics that appear among the other hirings

As this ExpTrait node has no EFFECT {}, our medics can`t control the SAS systems, repair wheels or do science. You can add some of that (or all o_O). You can see all (all?) current skill in GameData\Squad\Experience\Trait.cfg

Of course, you can add as many Thaits as you need. What about Captain, Crew ets

[garwel]

Well, it sounds very ambitious. I mean, it adds to the space sim stuff like hit points, different types of damage (collision, thermal, bleeding, etc.), healing... You would probably have to modify the game and other mods a lot so that your injured kerbals could not (or could) control ships, operate ISRU, do IVA and EVA, and so on. You would need to create parts like a medical bay (seems RoverDude has already made one) and medical equipment containers.

Another thing in this avenue is illness and, more specifically, infectious disease. What if kerbals could spread one? It would be a serious problem in long-haul flights, stations and bases. You'd need to build quarantine cells to isolate sick crew members and/or heal them.

What I worry about is that it will be just not so fun and way too frustrating.

[BT Industries]

Someone needs to make a small plugin which turns a module on or off depending on what type of kerbal it is on.

With 1.2 adding modules to kerbals is so easy you can do it with a MM path!

The only problem is that they all have it...

For example you could add a leaking module somthing like Kerbal Krash System has so that Kerbals leak a resource called Health when they get damaged...

A Medic can have a Health generator module on him and if you go to the damaged Kerbal you can keep him alive by transferring Health...

You could then drag the patient back to the ship and put him in a medic bay.

Then fly him home to the KSC where he can be fully healed.

This would be a hacky way of doing it and I still have no idea how to get only one type of kerbal to get the healing skill.

[Ger_space]

6 hours ago, BT Industries said:

Someone needs to make a small plugin which turns a module on or off depending on what type of kerbal it is on.

With 1.2 adding modules to kerbals is so easy you can do it with a MM path!

The only problem is that they all have it...

For example you could add a leaking module somthing like Kerbal Krash System has so that Kerbals leak a resource called Health when they get damaged...

A Medic can have a Health generator module on him and if you go to the damaged Kerbal you can keep him alive by transferring Health...

You could then drag the patient back to the ship and put him in a medic bay.

Then fly him home to the KSC where he can be fully healed.

This would be a hacky way of doing it and I still have no idea how to get only one type of kerbal to get the healing skill.

You could check in the OnUpdate (or OnFixedUpdate) function of the Partmodule for the medic-trait.

 

public override void OnUpdate () {
	var crew = this.vessel.GetVesselCrew().FirstOrDefault();
	// check for trait here
	if (crew.trait != "Medic") {
		Debug.Log("KerbalMedic: Kerbal is not a Medic: "   + crew.trait + " destroying PartModule." );
		Destroy(this);
	}
}

You can add the PartModule to any Kerbal, but the Module will remove itself, when the trait is not Medic.

[colmo]

 

Thanks for the responses. So making actual Kerbal medics is the simple bit, I think you've ironed that one out.

The hard bit, as has been pointed out, is the injury mechanics.

23 hours ago, garwel said:

Well, it sounds very ambitious. I mean, it adds to the space sim stuff like hit points, different types of damage (collision, thermal, bleeding, etc.), healing... You would probably have to modify the game and other mods a lot so that your injured kerbals could not (or could) control ships, operate ISRU, do IVA and EVA, and so on. You would need to create parts like a medical bay (seems RoverDude has already made one) and medical equipment containers.

Another thing in this avenue is illness and, more specifically, infectious disease. What if kerbals could spread one? It would be a serious problem in long-haul flights, stations and bases. You'd need to build quarantine cells to isolate sick crew members and/or heal them.

What I worry about is that it will be just not so fun and way too frustrating.

I think the best approach is to make it complex enough to be interesting, without becoming a micromanagement nightmare.

It's essentially the same as the medic class in an RPG or shooter - Kerbals will get hurt, and if anyone wants to extend that to other ideas like disease, great, but keeping it simple to start with is the ticket. @BT Industries has expanded on my original KKS idea with the Health Generator idea - I suppose different level medics would have different generator strengths.

In terms of fun, I think I mentioned it to @inigma as an idea for GAP - a contract would spawn a wounded Kerbal you had to go rescue, with time of the essence. If their condition was stable instead of deteriorating, then I doubt the retrieval would be interesting. If you want to specialise on search and rescue, then you could dot first aid teams and stations around Kerbal and eventually the whole system.

We already have mod (and now stock) ISRU for making missions sustainable from a mechanical PoV, so it makes sense that you should have a way of sustaining your Kerbals against mishaps as well as your ships. I see it as an extension of the life-support mods.

Edited October 19, 2016 by colmo

[BT Industries]

10 hours ago, colmo said:

It's essentially the same as the medic class in an RPG or shooter - Kerbals will get hurt, and if anyone wants to extend that to other ideas like disease, great, but keeping it simple to start with is the ticket. @BT Industries has expanded on my original KKS idea with the Health Generator idea - I suppose different level medics would have different generator strengths.

I have figured our a way to do this...

I'll get started this afternoon!

10 hours ago, colmo said:

In terms of fun, I think I mentioned it to @inigma as an idea for GAP - a contract would spawn a wounded Kerbal you had to go rescue, with time of the essence. If their condition was stable instead of deteriorating, then I doubt the retrieval would be interesting. If you want to specialise on search and rescue, then you could dot first aid teams and stations around Kerbal and eventually the whole system.

That would be fun!!!

Could you organise this with inigma for me?

Hopefully we can have a contract ready to go when I'm finished putting this all together! 

17 hours ago, Ger_space said:

 

public override void OnUpdate () {
	var crew = this.vessel.GetVesselCrew().FirstOrDefault();
	// check for trait here
	if (crew.trait != "Medic") {
		Debug.Log("KerbalMedic: Kerbal is not a Medic: "   + crew.trait + " destroying PartModule." );
		Destroy(this);
	}
}

 

Could you please care to PM me where I put this but of code???

Is it just after the Module because you haven't opened a new { thingie (My coding knowledge is limited I appreciate your help)

 

Thanks for all the help and ideas hopefully I can get somthing working soon!!!

I have a couple of other small Kerbal Improvement mods in mind which I might be making after this as well!

 

Wish me luck and see you all on the new thread when its done...

[BT Industries]

Oh and is anyone here good at texturing and modeling???

Would be cool to have a KIS paramedic bag... unlike a medic it cant generate health it can only store it.

So normal Kerbals could use it to keep the Kerbal alive until you can get a medic there, sorta like a health battery really.

What do you guys think???

Bad idea or good idea???

[colmo]

Another planted seed springs forth new growth

KIS makes sense for a number of reasons - it's the only way to manage small items like syringes, IV bags, oxygen tanks etc. It should be optional, though - the less 3rd party requirements, the less likely your mod based on it gets left high and dry.

[BT Industries]

6 minutes ago, colmo said:

the less 3rd party requirements, the less likely your mod based on it gets left high and dry.

True...

I'm still looking a solution other than Kerbal Krash System.

Hopefully later on I can get someone to make a small plugin for the leaking so we don't have to use KKS anymore.

8 minutes ago, colmo said:

KIS makes sense for a number of reasons - it's the only way to manage small items like syringes, IV bags, oxygen tanks etc. It should be optional, though

I agree should be optional...

How do suggest these specialized tools help, cause at the moment you can only use or gain health.

(I don't want to have to go and learn to code just yet (you guys will be waiting to long  ))

 

 

[BT Industries]

Hi again..

What do you guys think of this as the medical bay???

Its licensed under public domain so I'm pretty sure I can use it.

I have no idea how to make it not have Kerbal in it and then change the model back to normal when you put the Kerbal in it.

Maybe with a animation???

I wont be able to do it... not my skill set (yet)

 

Why oh why did I chose this for my first mod...

(I'll just put this aside for a latter update)

 

EDIT:

Btw maybe you should update the OP @colmo

Edited October 20, 2016 by BT Industries

[BT Industries]

Okay small update...

We need someone to recompile/update KKS for 1.2.

For the meantime I'll work with Eva Manager to try and get somthing working in 1.1.3

EDIT:

Eva Manager is only updated to work with 1.0 and the thread is locked?!?!

Edited October 20, 2016 by BT Industries

[Jenyaza]

So now we have

HealthResource, I see it as

Spoiler

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = Health
  abbreviation = HP
  density = 0.0001
  unitCost = 0.1
  hsp = 3000
  flowMode = NO_FLOW
  transfer = PUMP
  isTweakable = true
  volume = 5
}

 

Medic Pack (requires clarification)

Spoiler

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleResourceConverter
	ConverterName = Health Regenerator
	StartActionName = Start HP Ggenerator
	StopActionName = Stop HP Generator
	AutoShutdown = true

	UseSpecialistBonus = true
	SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2  // this number
	SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05        // or this
	ExperienceEffect = MedicSkill
	EfficiencyBonus = 1               //  or this
                                      // must be about 1000 
	OUTPUT_RESOURCE                   // (I don`t now exactly)
	{
		ResourceName = Health
		Ratio = 0.0001          // to compensate this, too small
		DumpExcess = false      // without MedicSkill
	}
}

We need add Health to KerbalEva part

Spoiler

something like

https://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLifeSupport/blob/master/Source/AddLifeSupport.cs

It`s under  CC BY-NC-SA 3.0

We need disallow Kerbal running if health < 90% 

We might disallow Kerbal moving if health < 50%

(and to increase "search" exp, maybe remove yellow marker from Kerbal  ( like this marker ) - optional )

We need K.I.A or M.I.A kerbal when no health left 

And "pump" mechanism for transferring Health from regenerator to injured kerbal

Oh, and one more feature, If any CommandPod crashed, all Kerbs spawns as unconscious - but not kill immediately. But it may be nearly impossibly.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Jenyaza

[colmo]

15 hours ago, BT Industries said:

What do you guys think of this as the medical bay???

Its licensed under public domain so I'm pretty sure I can use it.

I have no idea how to make it not have Kerbal in it and then change the model back to normal when you put the Kerbal in it.

Maybe with a animation???

I wont be able to do it... not my skill set (yet)

 

Why oh why did I chose this for my first mod...

(I'll just put this aside for a latter update)

 

EDIT:

Btw maybe you should update the OP @colmo

2

 

 

 

@BT Industries, that mod was actually a space coffin - a fine mod but perhaps not the ideal solution. The Deep Freeze mod has, IIRC, some models that might suffice? Perhaps an MM patch could add medical bay facilities to them?

I wrote the OP in the hope of inspiring someone to pick it up and run with it. It worked  - any mod developed from it deserves its own thread, as this is, after all, in the Discussions forum, not Development.

[BT Industries]

 

1 hour ago, colmo said:

@BT Industries, that mod was actually a space coffin - a fine mod but perhaps not the ideal solution. The Deep Freeze mod has, IIRC, some models that might suffice? Perhaps an MM patch could add medical bay facilities to them?

 

Another dependency...

The mod is under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 so I could retexture one of the models (I quite like this one...

Spoiler

...) if someone had Deepfreeze installed then there would just be two similar looking pods with different textures.

I'll be nice and ask even though we legally can 

1 hour ago, colmo said:

 

I wrote the OP in the hope of inspiring someone to pick it up and run with it. It worked

Yes you managed to give the KSP community a new modder...

Me!!!

Not so sure if I should thank you or hate you... 

...the coding is doing my head in 

It's sorta fun though! 

2 hours ago, colmo said:

any mod developed from it deserves its own thread, as this is, after all, in the Discussions forum, not Development.

Your right!

Should I wait until I have somthing and continue discussing things here?

Or should I go and create a new thread right now and we can discuss it there as the talk as gone more towards development now?

 

[Leafbaron]

DuFresne:My name isn't Doc, it's DuFresne.

Church:Yeah. I can't pronounce that, so from now on, your name is Doc.

DuFresne:I'm not really comfortable with that; I'm not a doctor, I'm a medic.

Church:What's the difference?

DuFresne:Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable. While they die.

Tucker:Mental note: don't ever get shot.

[BT Industries]

1 minute ago, Leafbaron said:

DuFresne:My name isn't Doc, it's DuFresne.

Church:Yeah. I can't pronounce that, so from now on, your name is Doc.

DuFresne:I'm not really comfortable with that; I'm not a doctor, I'm a medic.

Church:What's the difference?

DuFresne:Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable. While they die.

Tucker:Mental note: don't ever get shot.

To true...

We should probably add Doctors sometime down the line as well...

[colmo]

@BT Industries, how you proceed is up to you. My ideas don't come with licences

As I suggested, all part dependencies should be optional, the core mechanic shouldn't require any parts at all, but parts help flesh it out.

[BT Industries]

27 minutes ago, colmo said:

As I suggested, all part dependencies should be optional, the core mechanic shouldn't require any parts at all, but parts help flesh it out.

I agree, with the exception of the one medbay as you will need at least one for rescues to be feasible...

I'm currently looking at the Kerbalism code to see how he made his kerbals go prone when they died and I'm also checking out the KKS code to see if I can make a small plugin to handle the leaking on impact so that KKS is no longer dependant (mainly because KKS isn't updated yet).

[BT Industries]

Sooo...

After lots of bashing around code in my spare time trying to get somthing to work...

I have nothing...

 

Sorry to disappoint but I thought you guys would be wondering whats going on.

Don't worry I'll continue work and hopefully I'll make a breakthrough (might even be down the lines of getting someone else to do it )...

...either way I'll make sure you guys get something out of this.

Edited October 26, 2016 by BT Industries

[Vector824]

As an actual nurse who plays KSP I would love to see this as a mod so I can live out my healer space travel fantasies.  I like what you guys have so far, wish there was a way I could help. Real world advice maybe? 

[BT Industries]

36 minutes ago, Vector824 said:

As an actual nurse who plays KSP I would love to see this as a mod so I can live out my healer space travel fantasies.  I like what you guys have so far, wish there was a way I could help. Real world advice maybe? 

If I have any questions I'll be sure to ask you!

Also if you have any ideas, etc...

...free feel to post them here.

[Vector824]

11 hours ago, BT Industries said:

If I have any questions I'll be sure to ask you!

Also if you have any ideas, etc...

...free feel to post them here.

Will do!  I really think this could add complexity and depth to gameplay.  Especially if you guys add a health bar.  If a randomized illness can strike a Kerbal on mission, it can bring in the need for a medbay on bases, quarantine pod on stations manned by a "Medical Officer" in order to work.  I say its a simple health depletion bar until you place him inside the med pod, then it refills.  If you want to add KIS to it a Kerbal can then have supplies to quickly refill health in the field.  Say a Kerbal gets run over by a rover, his health bar is at 25%, and the Medical Officer runs over with "meds" and "splints", the bar refills to 70% and now the Kerbal can walk/drive/jet pack back to the base, enter the med bay and begin healing.

The Medbay and Med R&D can also research "medical science" when manned by Scientists and a Medical Officer.  But only when at 100% health.

 

So, I propose this:

Parts: 

All of these could be the vanilla parts, just with the added Medical Officer mechanic. Command pods could function as "Medical Bays" if they support more that one Kerbal. So no matter what crew pod you have, kerbals heal. But by adding these to your vessel it increases healing rates.

1) MkI Quarantine Pod - 2 Kerbals, MkI Crew Cabin - For health regeneration and rescue operations. No science earned.

2) MkII Med Bay - 4 Kerbals, MkII Crew Cabin or PPD-10 - earns science when manned by Medical Officer and Scientist at 100% health. Gains small % boost when manned by more scientists or medical officers. Science disabled when sick Kerbal is being treated.

3) MkIII Medical R&D - 4 Kerbals, Mobile Processing Lab - earns science and heals at fastest rate, science doesn't disable when manned with Scientist and Medical Officer, even if sick Kerbal is present. Useful for bases and orbital stations. Only needs Medical Officer to be on the station/base in order to heal, not necessarily in the part, so you can heal 4 kerbals at once. Manning with 2 Scientist and 2 Medical Officers gives % boost to Science earning rate. Letting science bar fill to full gives +5-10% random point boost. 

4) KIS Medpack - caries med supplies for in the field for fast healing up to 75%. Works with all Kerbals, only Medical Officer gives healing % boost and uses less supplies.

Gameplay:

1) ALL Kerbals deplete at slow rate, increasing in rate the further away from Kerbin SOI they go. Radiation, Space Bugs, etc... Medical Officers are super kerbals (like nurses IRL), can't get sick. This doesn't have to be implemented, but does add complexity.

2) In vanilla mod Kerbals "stop working" below 80% health. If Kerbal drops below 50% they need to fly back to KSP in order to heal completely. Using KIS then they stop moving below 50% if reached walking outside (ok on EVA to fly back), need "life saving measures" below 10%, Die at 0%.

3) Random Illness Generator (togglable) that knocks off random % of health on missions. Popup alerts to illness. Place in medical part to heal. Could have an option to transfer in pop-up, then transfers Kerbal back automatically when finished. This is rare, like once every 2 years, only depletes down to 81% max.

4) All Medical parts heal Kerbals at rate in direct relation to experience of Medical Officer. For example; 2 star gives 25% boost, 3 gives 50% 4 gives 75% 5 gives 100%.  If there is more than one Medical Officer on board then they increase by +25% faster per M.O.  So two 5 star kerbals give 125% boost instead of 200% or something like that.  Healing takes a couple of Kerbin days, so not very long. Could timewarp to heal faster.

5) KIS can implement on site health regeneration up to 75% using "Medical Supplies" from medical backpack. Includes drugs, needles, splints, bandages. Any Kerbal below 10% requires "emergency life support" like an AED and Adrenaline shot to get above 10%.  Despawn when 0% is reached.

6) Can support other life support mods to ship "medical supplies" in order to keep parts working. Could also manufacture onboard medical supplies with another module.

 

That's all I have for now.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Vector824

[BT Industries]

14 hours ago, Vector824 said:

Will do!  I really think this could add complexity and depth to gameplay.  Especially if you guys add a health bar.  If a randomized illness can strike a Kerbal on mission, it can bring in the need for a medbay on bases, quarantine pod on stations manned by a "Medical Officer" in order to work.  I say its a simple health depletion bar until you place him inside the med pod, then it refills.  If you want to add KIS to it a Kerbal can then have supplies to quickly refill health in the field.  Say a Kerbal gets run over by a rover, his health bar is at 25%, and the Medical Officer runs over with "meds" and "splints", the bar refills to 70% and now the Kerbal can walk/drive/jet pack back to the base, enter the med bay and begin healing.

The Medbay and Med R&D can also research "medical science" when manned by Scientists and a Medical Officer.  But only when at 100% health.

Good idea!

I suggest we have only a certain amount of injuries/sicknesses.

I suggest somthing along the lines of four main types...

Breaks, Sprains and Fractures:

Only effects the movement and limits actions (can not kill).

Example: Kerbal is squished under your rocket and/or collides at speed.

Unconsciousness/Coma:

Like death but can be brought back to life (can die while unconscious).

Can be woken up (doesn't always succeed) and can wake up by themselves.

Example: Kerbal bumps his head really hard and/or accelerates/decelerates really quickly

Sicknesses:

A  Kerbal catches some sort  of disease.

It can spread to other Kerbals if not careful!

Side-effects include not being able to leave the ship, lack of movement and even death.

Can be cured by means of medicine or the Kerbal can get better overtime.

Non Medical Kerbals can take medicine without the help of a Medic (Having the wrong medicine can make you sick in the first place)

Example: Kerbal catches the cold has to stay in bed and recovers a few days later.

Energy:

Kerbals run out of energy after lots of activity.

Kerbals regenerate energy when idle.

Kerbals refuse/can't move when they run out of energy and wont leave the craft. 

Example: A Kerbal cant walk any further after walking for miles from his crash site. Time to set up a tent and take a nap.

On 10/5/2014 at 0:28 AM, kimiko said:

 

I have to go now but I'll be back later to discuss your ideas on parts and gameplay...

 

Feel free to dump any of my ideas in the trash if they are really bad!

[Jenyaza]

Good if "sickness" can be switch off, because it looks like random failture.