BDAc Challenges: GDJ's Top Gun Extreme Tournament

[GDJ]

On behalf of the BDAc team and development group, I welcome all prospective entrants to this BDAc challenge!

The start of the skirmishes shall commence on December 1st, 2016 and will hopefully be completed before December 20, 2016. I will be on holidays from the 21st until the end of the month. If the challenge does not conclude on December 20th, they will recommence until completion on January 1, 2017. 
From this post on everybody has 12 days to build, fine tune, and submit their planes.

The rules as agreed upon:

-One submission per applicant
-Battles will be 3 vs. 3 round, best of 3 skirmishes . This will be a simple elimination setup. You win a battle, you progress. You lose, you're out. Ties will be delt in a overtime round. If the plane(s) lands intact due to expiration of fuel resources that will count as a loss since your plane will not be able to defend itself.
-All planes will be flightworthy.
-All planes will be able to taxi down the runway or dirt in a straight fashion. If your planes like to do the wing-slap-shimmy with the dirt or pavement, don't submit it. If it happens during a battle, it will be counted as a loss.
-All planes will be tuned to your best abilities at the point of submission either by DropBox or KerbalX. Once your plane is submitted, it will be considered a final draft.
-All planes will have the BDA AI and Weapons Manager in plain sight (pardon the pun), preferably on top of the fuselage or airframe. If I have to go looking for them......well, that results in bad Karma, Ju-Ju, or whatever you call it. It's poor manners for the tournament host. Besides, I might have to check on things.
-Any AI or weapon manger settings allowed. You are tuning the AI to your plane. Do what you have to. Same with the Weapons Manager.
-All BDA guns allowed. NO MISSILES THIS TIME.
Rotating turrets will be locked down to 0-0-0 configuration, pointing forwards. I will check.
-There will be a hard minimum of 750 metres ASL AI configurations. No maximum ASL altitude limit will be imposed. This is to prevent dirt poisoning or SDT (Severe Deceleration Trauma) mishaps (hitting the ground).
-All contests will be within the default 8,000 metre arena. Use this as a yardstick for building your planes.

-All planes will be inspected so they have the stock SQUAD parts and the following mods (links will follow):

--SXT continued https://github.com/linuxgurugamer/SXTContinued

--BDA continued https://github.com/PapaJoesSoup/BDArmory/releases

--Quizztech continued http://spacedock.info/mod/836/QuizTechAeroPackContinued

--Aviation cockpits http://spacedock.info/mod/658/Aviation Cockpits?ga=<Game+3102+'Kerbal+Space+Program'>

--Procedural Dynamics (wings) https://github.com/Crzyrndm/ProceduralWings/releases

--Procedural Parts (airframes, tanks, etc) https://github.com/Swamp-Ig/ProceduralParts/releases

--Tweakscale Github

NO OTHER MODS WILL BE PERMITTED.

-FAR or NEAR not approved. Stock game physics only this time around. We shall see in the future.
-Default G-limits on planes and Kerbals in full effect. You can build whatever you want, but the pilots have to live until they die (morbid, but true)
-Any planes that use Tweakscale on the cockpits will be disqualified. Tweakscale renders the cockpits and other manned structural parts unmannable. If your design calls for a .625m cockpit the before mentioned mods have those in their parts inventory. Same with 2.5m cockpits. Use the proper cockpit for the job.
-Tweakscale on engines permitted, however this may not be an advantage due to thrust, fuel consumption, mass, etc. It will be up to the participant to design their plane with this in mind. You have been advised.
-All planes will have a minimum of one Kerbal.
-All planes will have a maximum of 2 engines
-All planes will have a minimum of one BDA Radar unit installed.
-All planes will have a maximum part count of 50. That should be plenty.
-All planes will have sufficient fuel for a minimum 15 minute flight at maximum throttle. This includes Afterburners. Dogfights with evenly matched planes have been known to last quite a while. 
-There is no minimum or maximum mass on the plane.
-There is no minimum or maximum speed requirements, but it's preferred that your plane can do at least Mach 1.1 for a decent mass-to-thrust ratio.
- There will be no hidden wings installed inside the fuselage, UNLESS IT CAN BE PROVEN THAT IT'S A NECESSITY FOR THE STRUCTURE OF THE PLANE. That means no shoving 20 wing surfaces in the space of one using the debug menu to do it. That will be an instant no-fly.

Edited November 21, 2016 by GDJ
First post of the challenge

[GDJ]

Link to the Challenge page. This particular post will be edited to keep the thread from being cluttered.
http://challonge.com/BDACtopgunextreme
 

BRACKET ONE
Round one: GDJ's AVRO Tank Buster (propeller) vs Pine's Prototype Mk1 (twin jet)

Round two: SuicidalInsanity's Stratovore vs Spannermonkey's Spanair! The most unique craft ever built against absolute raw firepower!
 

 

Round 3: Notsodeadjeb's Fighter vs DrTricky's Dorito Competition 5. A newcomer with a fast jet against a veteran of countless battles in a old favourite!

 

Round 4: RuinzV2's X23 horsefly vs Tsoj's JET:TEC/AI
 

Round 5: jrodriguez's AerokrakenV1 vs Wraith977's WF-6
 

Round6: Doctor Davinci's Platypus against Bob_Saget's Shrike MKIII (this was an interesting round)
 

 

 

BRACKET TWO

Round one:
GDJ vs. SuicidalInsanity.
 

 

Round two:
Tsoj vs. jrodriguez
 

 

 

Round 3: 

FINAL BRACKET:

Round one: TSOJ vs SuicidalInsanity
 

Round Two: TSOJ vs Dr. Tricky
 

Round Three: Dr.Tricky vs. SuicidalInsanity
 

So, in the very end of the Finals, all three craft had one win and one loss. It's officially called a THREE WAY TIE.


This challenge is complete.

Edited January 8, 2017 by GDJ
Challenge is finished. Thanks for all participants!

[TorchedForever]

Sounds interesting! I'll begin working on a submission right away.

[SuicidalInsanity]

The lack of restrictions on armament is interesting, and intriguing - so many unorthodox possibilities to try! This is going to be fun.
I wonder how long it'll be before someone shows up with a plane built out of Abrams cannons or something.

 

 

[GDJ]

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

The lack of restrictions on armament is interesting, and intriguing - so many unorthodox possibilities to try! This is going to be fun.
I wonder how long it'll be before someone shows up with a plane built out of Abrams cannons or something.

Well, yeah if you want sheer building destruction in 0.2 seconds, sure, but with the 2 engine restriction and the mass of the gun......I wouldn't.

[DoctorDavinci]

I'll just leave this here for now ....

 

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

40 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

I'll just leave this here for now ....

I see we have exactly the same thoughts on weaponry I must investigate the unorthodox route though, that craft looks very cool. Mines a tad more traditional  

IS there a test craft?  as 3 of the BDAc test planes didn't quite perform as expected and it wasn't a long fight,  I've a feeling that they're just not so hot as  gun fighters

[Pds314]

Some observations:

Turnfighters with a pair of wheesleys could be extremely efficient because they would only need 15 minutes of fuel. With 10600 s of ISP, that's nominally 1040 kg of fuel per engine, vs 2985 kg per engine for Panthers or Whiplashes.

On the other end of the spectrum, there's no prohibition on rocket engines. In other words, a pair of VECTORS would be allowed. Unfortunately, they'd also need an obscene 40 tonnes per engine of fuel, meaning that any vehicle with them would be rather impractical, although it could well be a giant plane covered in Gau-8s.

[Pds314]

Also, "All planes will have a minimum of one Kerbal."

Does this kerbal need to be controlling the craft?

[GDJ]

1 hour ago, Pds314 said:

Some observations:

Turnfighters with a pair of wheesleys could be extremely efficient because they would only need 15 minutes of fuel. With 10600 s of ISP, that's nominally 1040 kg of fuel per engine, vs 2985 kg per engine for Panthers or Whiplashes.

On the other end of the spectrum, there's no prohibition on rocket engines. In other words, a pair of VECTORS would be allowed. Unfortunately, they'd also need an obscene 40 tonnes per engine of fuel, meaning that any vehicle with them would be rather impractical, although it could well be a giant plane covered in Gau-8s.

If you want to enter a flying craft with rocket engines, be my guest.

1 minute ago, Pds314 said:

Also, "All planes will have a minimum of one Kerbal."

Does this kerbal need to be controlling the craft?

Yes. No kerbal = No control = not eligible for this challenge.

[Pds314]

5 minutes ago, GDJ said:

If you want to enter a flying craft with rocket engines, be my guest.

Yes. No kerbal = No control = not eligible for this challenge.

Lawn chairs inside a fake cockpit?

[DoctorDavinci]

14 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

Lawn chairs inside a fake cockpit?

That would require Take Command to be working in 1.2.1 since the challenge host would otherwise have to load each Kerbal himself which would be quite the laborious task given he's not running just one battle, but a bunch.

Suppose we have 8 entrants with half of them having only lawn chairs for their craft ... it would mean Kerbals will be loaded manually 12 times just for the first round of battles and I think this would be unfair to the challenge host

Just my thoughts

Edited November 21, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[Pds314]

2 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

That would require Take Command to be working in 1.2.1 since the challenge host would otherwise have to load each Kerbal himself which would be quite the laborious task given he's not running just one battle, but a bunch.

Suppose we have 8 entrants with half of them having only lawn chairs for their craft ... it would mean Kerbals will be loaded manually 12 times just for the first round of battles and I think this would be unfair to the challenge host

Just my thoughts

Oh. I didn't know take command wasn't updated. Oh well. I'll just design things with the available cockpits.

[Pds314]

Oh, other question!

Will all of the pilots be actual pilots or will some/all be engineers/scientists? I ask because pilots have better G tolerance.

[GDJ]

1 hour ago, Pds314 said:

Oh, other question!

Will all of the pilots be actual pilots or will some/all be engineers/scientists? I ask because pilots have better G tolerance.

All Kerbals will be pilots.

[Pds314]

2 hours ago, GDJ said:

All Kerbals will be pilots.

Alright. Cool.

I've made 5 vehicles so far.

#1. Fake piston-engined fighter using wheesley with 6x Browning. Rejected: too slow, can't out-turn supermaneuverable jets. Often gets sparks.

#2. Twin-engined Panther Fifth gen With 2x vulcans. Under consideration. Poor low-altitude top speed. (Mach 1.15 at sea level)

#3. 210-tonne Mk3 gunship with 2x Mk3 Whiplash and 10x GAU-8: rejected: big fragile target, especially in a head-on pass. Speed/armament doesn't compensate.

#4. Mk0 plane With 4x Browning: rejected: too low top speed at low altitude. Too short firing range

#5. Mk1 light Panther fourth-gen with 1x Vulcan. Under consideration: great top speed at all altitudes. Good turning circle and TWR.

 

Not sure what I'll submit, but from the looks of things, normal-sized 5th and 4th gen planes are better than the available alternatives.

[Pds314]

Hmm.. Not to pester the BDAc team, but I really wish there were more controls over how the AI behaves, like a general timidness slider that basically determines a lot of settings to control how afraid it is of enemy guns and energy. The current AI is so aggressive it will commit to a head-on pass 9 times out of 10 and will try to fly straight up at an enemy circling kilometers above it. Likewise, it sometimes commits to coin-flip odds maneuvers when it has a huge energy advantage. Would just be nice to have the option of making fighters that value their own safety less or more.

 

On another note, I wonder if tanks can be made to fly. They'd be great in a head-on pass as long as the wing surfaces were redundant and durable.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Pds314

[GDJ]

There is a correlation between speed and behaviour as well. I may have to put a top speed restriction on the tournament to discourage one or both planes to evade each other by flying straight up to obscenely high altitudes.

[drtricky]

Besides manually running the plane until fuel exhaustion, are there other ways that can determine whether a plane has adequate fuel or not?

Edited November 21, 2016 by drtricky

[tsoj]

Quote

Besides manually running the plane until fuel exhaustion, are there other ways that can determine whether a plane has adequate fuel or not?

i think you could read it from kerbal engineer redux if you have installed it. you may have to swith to afterburner. but actually i am not sure if it works now.

[DoctorDavinci]

 

12 minutes ago, drtricky said:

Besides manually running a plane, are there other ways that can determined whether a plane has adequate fuel or not?

Look at the stats of the engine which will give you how much fuel is required per second to operate the engine at full throttle (right click on the engine in the SPH)

Then multiply that number by 900 ... that will tell you how much fuel you need to run one of that type of engine full tilt for 15 minutes

Edited November 21, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[GDJ]

^^ What he said.

I'm still learning all the ropes here.

[drtricky]

36 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Look at the stats of the engine which will give you how much fuel is required per second to operate the engine at full throttle (right click on the engine in the SPH)

Then multiply that number by 900 ... that will tell you how much fuel you need to run one of that type of engine full tilt for 15 minutes

So if I'm getting this correct, at a max fuel consumption of 0.663 units/sec, I would need ~1200 units of fuel for two panther engines?

Edited November 21, 2016 by drtricky

[DoctorDavinci]

45 minutes ago, drtricky said:

So if I'm getting this correct, at a max fuel consumption of 0.663 units/sec, I would need ~1200 units of fuel for two panther engines?

You got it 

1193.4 to be exact

Edited November 21, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[SuicidalInsanity]

5 hours ago, GDJ said:

There is a correlation between speed and behaviour as well. I may have to put a top speed restriction on the tournament to discourage one or both planes to evade each other by flying straight up to obscenely high altitudes.

Are there other factors at play as well governing that behavior? I've had a few planes that have decided to start climbing to 18000m or so forcing their opponent to follow, but they were all flying at no more than 200-250m/s or so.

On a related note, has anyone else run into situations where the AI decides that cowardice is the better part of discretion, and starts flying in a straight line away from the combat area until it reaches physics distance and despawns?