ESS 6.4x New Horizons Career

[septemberWaves]

I've decided to play two career games in parallel. One is my long-term career that has already been started, in which there are 44 celestial bodies (not including the sun) and a large amount of other mods too. The other is this.

This is going to be a playthough using the New Horizons planet pack (as soon as the 1.2.x version is released, which will apparently be soon), except I will also be using Sigma Dimensions to scale up all planets and orbits by a factor of 6.4. This is directly inspired by the 6.4x scale mod that became popular a while ago, but I am extending that concept to use the New Horizons pack. It is likely to be quite an interesting experience, as I will have to gauge delta-v information by first conducting flybys, then orbital missions, and then finally landers and return missions. Everything will be experimental, rather than designed for a known delta-v map as is the case for the stock system and outer planets. It will also necessitate large rockets, and in fact one of the main reasons for the increased scale is because I enjoy making large rockets.

Mod list:

Spoiler

• B9 Part Switch
• Buffalo MSEV
• CapCom
• Coherent Contracts
• Color Coded Cannisters
• Colorful Fuel Lines
• Community Category Kit
• Community Resource Pack
• Community Tech Tree
• Contract Configurator
• Contracts Window Plus
• DMagic Orbital Science
• Duna Restoration Project
• Editor Extensions Redux
• Firespitter
• Fuel Tanks Plus
• GPO Speed Fuel Pump
• Heat Control
• HideEmptyTechTreeNodes
• Interstellar Fuel Switch
• JX2 Antenna
• Kerbal Alarm Clock
• Kerbal Attachment System
• Kerbal Inventory System
• Kerbal Joint Reinforcement
• Kopernicus
• KRnD
• Lithobraking Exploration Technologies
• Mark One Laboratory Extensions
• MechJeb2
• Mk2 Expansion
• Mk3 Expansion
• Modular Rocket Systems
• Modular Flight Integrator
• Near Future Technologies (all)
• New Horizons
• Planetary Base Systems
• SCANsat
• Sigma (Binary and Dimensions)
• SpaceY Heavy Lifters and SpaceY Expanded
• Stockalike Mining Expansion
• Stockalike Station Parts Expansion
• Surface Experiment Package
• Tarsier Space Technologies
• Trajectories
• TRP-Hire
• Universal Storage
• VX Series II Engine Pack
• [x] Science

 

I'll start out this thread by scaling up the stock system and playing around with launch systems to figure out how to orbit Kerbin. Once New Horizons is released for 1.2.x, I will begin the series properly.

 

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By the way, if anyone knows how to multiply all antenna ranges (stock and modded) by 5, this knowlege would be greatly appreciated.

Edited December 17, 2016 by eloquentJane

[MaxL_1023]

You can adjust antenna range in the career difficulty settings, assuming it works properly. If not, go to the config files for the part and increase the power by the square of your scaling factor - you need 100 times the power to reach 10 times as far. 

Also, Sigma has a new atmosphere parameter which allows you to set both the pressure curve and the "top" of the atmosphere. For a 6.4x game, I would recommend setting the atmosphere curve to 1.25 (for realistic atmospheres) and the atmosphere top to about 1.5-2. This would give you a realistic atmosphere with Kerbin's ending at about 140 KM. The pressure at ~70km in stock would appear at 87.5km in this configuration. Ohiobob would know more. 

[septemberWaves]

Thanks. I'm still trying to figure out right now how to make Sigma Dimensions scale up everything without doing it for each individual planet.

[septemberWaves]

@MaxL_1023 What exactly are the names of the settings I need to change for the atmosphere?

Edited December 9, 2016 by eloquentJane

[UnusualAttitude]

New Horizons at 64K? Sounds like a most worthy challenge. Count me in! 

[septemberWaves]

@UnusualAttitude I'm glad you like the idea. Honestly though I doubt it will be too much of a challenge. Most problems will be solved using the "MOAR BOOSTERS !!!!11!!1!!!!!" approach, or by upscaling the rocket diameter. And quite honestly, I often get a little displeased by how little effort is needed for some celestial bodies at the stock scale (like Minmus, or Gilly). For most non-atmospheric bodies I tend to end up with ridiculously high thrust-to-weight ratios because the engines are just too powerful. 6.4x scale suits the stock parts excellently, because it's quite well balanced for the part dimensions.

Also I happen to know from past experience that a Mun mission in New Horizons takes almost exactly the same amount of delta-v as it does in stock, and also that most delta-v statistics are approximately doubled for 6.4x scale. In any case though, I'll be learning mostly by experimentation.

My first missions will be sounding rockets, followed by a Sputnik-style probe launch to orbit (I am quite a fan of the style of the Sputnik and Soyuz launch vehicles and will probably use similar styles in this series now that there's a need for that sort of rocket size), followed by sub-orbital and then orbital crewed flights. I'll then start setting up a probe network around Kerbin and around the Sonnah system, as well as sending flyby probes followed by orbiter probes followed by lander probes to all of Sonnah's moons (and probe exploration will continue for other celestial bodies beyond Sonnah's SOI). The reason probe exploration will work like that is because I can set up a node from LKO to find out the needed delta-v for a flyby, then fly by the target world and set up a node to find out the needed delta-v to circularize, and that should then give me a good indication of the needed delta-v to land (on a non-atmospheric body that is; for places with atmospheres landing tends to be easier). Crewed missions will take place only after extensive probe exploration (much like in my long-term career) and will begin with flybys (sometimes) followed by orbiters followed by stations followed by landings followed by surface bases.

I don't know quite how far I'll get with this playthrough, and it is unlikely to be quite as thorough an exploration as my long-term career, but it will certainly be interesting to do and hopefully interesting to watch.

[UnusualAttitude]

Flights beyond Sonnah's SOI will certainly be interesting, with the added complication of transfer windows departing from Kerbin, a moon of a gas giant. Especially if you are discovering delta-vee requirements as you go.

A life support mod might spice things up for crewed mission, and balance out the Near Future tech. Transfer Window Planner should work even for a scaled up system, allowing you to calculate round trip times. But each to his own, of course. 

[MaxL_1023]

45 minutes ago, eloquentJane said:

@MaxL_1023 What exactly are the names of the settings I need to change for the atmosphere?

From Ohiobob, the resident atmosphere expert:

On 12/7/2016 at 10:56 PM, OhioBob said:

Just to elaborate a little bit on the new feature, there are now two parameters that when used together provide a powerful new way to modify atmospheres.  These include the old parameter Atmosphere and the new parameter atmoTopLayer.  The best way to explain how they work is to provide an example.  Let’s say we have the following,

Atmosphere = 1.25
atmoTopLayer = 1.6

Atmosphere rescales the original atmospheres curves.  For example, Kerbin’s pressure and temperature curves go to a height of 70 km.  By setting Atmosphere equal to 1.25, these curves are going to be stretched 25% to 70*1.25 = 87.5 km.  This value is then multiplied by atmoTopLayer to determine the top of the atmosphere, which in this example is 87.5*1.6 = 140 km.

What happens now is that the gap between where the atmosphere curves left off, 87.5 km, and the new atmosphere height, 140 km, is filled in by extending the curves.  For a normal atmosphere this means that the pressure and density will continue to decrease with increasing altitude beyond where the original atmosphere ended.

We can also go the other direction.  Let’s say we're downsizing a full-sized body to stock-sized dimensions.  We might use the following settings,

Atmosphere = 0.8
atmoTopLayer = 0.625

If the original temperature and pressure curves go to 140 km, they are now rescaled to 140*0.8 = 112 km, and the top of the atmosphere is set to 112*0.625 = 70 km.  Since the final atmosphere height is less than the height of the curves, the top of the curves are trimmed off.

This feature allows for a much better and more realistic resizing of atmospheres.  For example, extending a pressure curve to produce a lower density upper atmosphere can better accommodate the higher entry speeds that result from upsizing a celestial body.  Altering the upper atmosphere density was impossible under the old method of resizing.

Generally speaking, the rule of thumb for upsizing a celestial body from 1x stock-sized to 10x life-sized is to set the Atmosphere parameter to 1.25.  This is because Kerbin’s stock atmosphere, as well as the custom atmospheres used by many of the popular planet packs, are based on life-sized models scaled down to 80% normal height.  Therefore the 1.25 factor simply reverses the model back to its life-size equivalent.
 

For the normal Sigma Dimensions, you can use the general ReSize and ReScale parameters to get a 6.4K game. Open the "Settings" CFG file and change the following:

Spoiler

 

// Base Settings

SigmaDimensions
{
    Resize = 1 -> 6.4 // Increases the size of all bodies by a factor of 6.4
    Rescale = 1 -> 6.4 // Increases the orbit radii - in this case they will all be expanded by the same ratio as the parent bodies. This will not quite correctly scale orbital periods, but those are not that much of an issue. 
    Atmosphere = 1 -> 1.25 // Corrects the stock atmosphere shenanigans
    dayLengthMultiplier = 1 -> 2.56 // Changes body rotation periods. 2.56 is a linear interpolation from setting a day at 10x to 24 hours (or a factor of 4 times stock). 
}

// Advanced Settings

@SigmaDimensions
{
    geeASLmultiplier = 1
    landscape = 1 -> 1/6.4 // To keep the same terrain relief heights. I suggest an intermediate value - perhaps 1/3 or so. 
    atmoVisualEffect = 1 -> 1.25 // Keeps the atmosphere visual effects matching the modified atmosphere

    atmoTopLayer = 1 -> 1.6 // Not sure where exactly this is in the new config file, but set it to 1.6 for a realistic-height atmosphere. This puts the atmosphere top at 140km on Kerbin. You can use anything larger than 1 here and be fine at 6.4x.

    resizeScatter = 1
    CustomSoISize = 0
    CustomRingSize = 6.4 (Keeps rings in the right place)
    atmoASL = 1
    tempASL = 1
    scanAltitude = 1
}

 

You can change the advanced parameters around if you want - the resize and rescale are the main changes. The landscape is also important, unless you want K2 to be 40km high!

[septemberWaves]

45 minutes ago, UnusualAttitude said:

A life support mod might spice things up for crewed mission, and balance out the Near Future tech. Transfer Window Planner should work even for a scaled up system, allowing you to calculate round trip times.

The only life support mod I'm particularly a fan of is Kerbalism, and I don't want to use it for this because it will make the long interplanetary missions horrible to plan out. And in any case it's not updated.

I don't really need a mod that plans out things like that, but thanks for the recommendation. Times don't really bother me since I'm not using life support, and I'd rather figure out delta-v using the flyby - orbit - landing method I mentioned above. It's not perfect but it will make for some interesting mission failures I'm sure.

 

 

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@MaxL_1023 Thank you for the help, though I did actually manage to find out what values to change by reading through a file that I noticed was included in the Sigma Dimensions folder that explains the different scale settings.

 

[OhioBob]

@MaxL_1023 covered the atmosphere stuff pretty well.  The settings of Atmosphere = 1.25 and atmoTopLayer = 1.6 are probably about right for a 10x resize.  For a 6.4x resize you might be able to go a little less, maybe Atmosphere = 1.2 and atmoTopLayer = 1.5 (or maybe even as low as 1.25).  It's really just a matter of what feels right to you when you play the game.  If during a high speed entry the transition between vacuum and atmosphere seems to occur too abruptly, then try increasing atmoTopLayer.  On the other hand, if the atmosphere seems too extended, then decrease atmoTopLayer.  The only real rule that I try to keep is to never go over 1.25 for the Atmosphere parameter.

[septemberWaves]

@OhioBob I've found some settings which probably should work. I'm about to test out this Sputnik rocket with 7km/s of delta-v. That should be more than what's needed for a 150km parking orbit (with the atmosphere at 140km) going mainly by guesswork. If I feel like the atmosphere is too easy or too hard to get through, I'll make changes.

EDIT: Sputnik 1 now has 6.1km/s of delta-v, after I made some changes to improve thrust on the core. This may turn into a mistake, but I think that value is okay.

Edited December 9, 2016 by eloquentJane

[OhioBob]

1 minute ago, eloquentJane said:

If I feel like the atmosphere is too easy or too hard to get through, I'll make changes.

The height of the atmosphere is probably not going to make much difference on a launch, other then, or course, you need to get up above the atmosphere to establish an orbit.  The place where you'll be able to notice the difference between a too short atmosphere and a too tall one is during a high speed reentry, such as returning from a moon or interplanetary space.  For launch and return from low orbit, the speeds just aren't high enough to notice if you have a problem or not.

Nice Sputnik by the way.

[septemberWaves]

@OhioBob I'll test some re-entry profiles tomorrow, once I figure out tonight how much delta-v I need.

 

And thanks. Although somewhat ironically, most of the visible parts on it are from M.O.L.E, which is based on the US's Gemini program

[septemberWaves]

Sputnik was an interesting launch. I made a major misjudgement on the delta-v requirements. I looked for a forum post about it and I found one which implies that the new delta-v for Kerbin orbit is somewhere around 7500m/s. So Sputnik got quite far up but was not a success. This is how I will be trying to evolve technology as this playthrough progresses in order to learn exactly what is needed for different goals. Reaching orbit should be the most difficult thing; the rest will be fairly trivial since I'll be able to judge by maneuver nodes.

Also, I noticed that the terrain is really quite exaggerated. What would be a good setting for that modifier?

[MaxL_1023]

I use 0.25 in my 10x career - mountains are tall, but not edge-of-space level. Things are somewhat flattened, but there is still enough relief to produce a viable landscape. 

Try something around 0.4 - maybe a bit less if you want parachutes to work on Serran. 

[septemberWaves]

7 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Try something around 0.4 - maybe a bit less if you want parachutes to work on Serran.

Thanks, I'll give that a try later. Parachutes on Serran aren't really an issue; I usually do a propulsive or partially propulsive landing there anyway.

[OhioBob]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 7:00 PM, eloquentJane said:

I looked for a forum post about it and I found one which implies that the new delta-v for Kerbin orbit is somewhere around 7500m/s.

If you just want a rough ballpark of how much different delta-v requirements are versus stock, multiple the stock dV by the square root of the resize factor.  For a 6.4x solar system, everything will be roughly 6.4^0.5 = 2.53 times greater than you are accustom to in stock.

[septemberWaves]

@OhioBob Thanks, that's very helpful. I knew it was 2 point something, but I underestimated the value after the point.

[septemberWaves]

I'm debating changing this from a New Horizons playthrough to a Galileo Planet Pack playthrough, if New Horizons doesn't get an update soon. I might also include Olei Planet Pack, which is new and looking quite promising. But that will depend on whether I'm satisfied by the amount of celestial bodies in GPP.

Edited January 31, 2017 by eloquentJane