Mission idea: Kerbal Dakar 2017

[DoctorDavinci]

So something I have discovered in regards to the decals .... seems that they produce a lot of drag

So much so that my top speed on the flats with the Beaver goes from 140ish down to 115ish with the only difference being the placing of 2 decals in symetry on the vehicle

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

18 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

So something I have discovered in regards to the decals .... seems that they produce a lot of drag

So much so that my top speed on the flats with the Beaver goes from 140ish down to 115ish with the only difference being the placing of 2 decals in symetry on the vehicle

I noticed that with those new decals, checked the cfg and noticed it has drag cube = none which seems to equal way more drag than you'd expect  , now i tried it on mine and the same result, so i have since reinstated the drag cube but removed the physics, which seems to work much better,  virtually no drag whatsoever,  it may be worth commenting out

//DRAG_CUBE
//{
//	none = True
//}

and instead use

PhysicsSignificance = 1

in the parameters instead, seems  legitimate to expect a sticker unless there are hundreds of them to have little affect on a vehicle and certainly not produce colossal drag

Edited December 20, 2016 by SpannerMonkey(smce)

[Azimech]

16 minutes ago, SpannerMonkey(smce) said:

I noticed that with those new decals, checked the cfg and noticed it has drag cube = none which seems to equal way more drag than you'd expect  , now i tried it on mine and the same result, so i have since reinstated the drag cube but removed the physics, which seems to work much better,  virtually no drag whatsoever,  it may be worth commenting out

//DRAG_CUBE
//{
//	none = True
//}

and instead use

PhysicsSignificance = 1

in the parameters instead, seems  legitimate to expect a sticker unless there are hundreds of them to have little affect on a vehicle and certainly not produce colossal drag

 

If I''m not mistaken, all files still have legacy entries for drag values, for example:

maximum_drag = 0.3
minimum_drag = 0.2
angularDrag = 1

Giving these a really low value ( 0.0001) helps as well.

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

2 minutes ago, Azimech said:

Giving these a really low value ( 0.0001) helps as well.

Good catch cheers

 

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

7 minutes ago, Azimech said:

 

If I''m not mistaken, all files still have legacy entries for drag values, for example:

maximum_drag = 0.3
minimum_drag = 0.2
angularDrag = 1

Giving these a really low value ( 0.0001) helps as well.

You refer to these as legacy. Is drag cube the new method? I don't remember ever messing with them last time I was on a KSP binge. 

[Azimech]

4 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

You refer to these as legacy. Is drag cube the new method? I don't remember ever messing with them last time I was on a KSP binge. 

I believe the drag cube system looks at those values, yes. They were first devised during Errordynamics but apparently deemed useful for NeoAero.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

2 minutes ago, Azimech said:

... Errordynamics ... NeoAero.

First time I've read it differentiated like that haha. *clap*

[katateochi]

9 hours ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

One thing that is helping me with the biggest problem (bent wheels) is mounting them to a cubic octagonal strut. When designing, use the strut to do all your offset. Then if you have to swap one at the end of the stage, you just slap it back in it's place, centered on the strut. Some tiny spaceship lander gear clipped into your vehicle serves well as "jack stands". 

If you want to go full stock, but still be able to swap... Docking port shenanigans?

I like your thinking, but I've sprinkled quite a bit of crazy into my rover mix and the wheel mount points are quite recessed so even if they were on cubes I think adding the part with KAS/KIS would have a similar effect to strapping some C4 to it (part clipping and KAS not being the best of friends!).  The docking port idea is quite cool too, having a totally modular rover is a nice idea, but won't suit my current design. 

I think I'm going to go with building in redundancy instead so only refueling will be needed between stages. I just ran through the course and only lost a few fairly minor parts. The last couple stages are quite deceptive though, looks like you can really floor it and then suddenly bumps!

9 hours ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

One thing that is helping me with the biggest problem (bent wheels)

When you say "bent" wheels, do you mean when they get pushed out of alignment rather than having a puncture? and can happen with other parts too, rather than exploding they get badly misaligned after a heavy landing/crash?  I've found a trick to fixing that. Stop completely (which sometimes is hard as the misaligned parts produce phantom forces) and time warp for a split second and everything snaps back into place. Or if you're using an external command chair, leave the seat and re-board the rover and all misaligned parts snap back into place (just mind out the rover doesn't run off under phantom power).

 

5 hours ago, Azimech said:

Incredibly enough, unknowingly I was scanning the same document today.

must be the day for it, I also had a quick look at that tome today! I'm just glad we don't have as many rules in this! But speaking of rules.....

When starting each stage is it a rolling start or should we be parked right next to the flag at the start of each stage?
And how much deviation from the path shown in the maps in the first post is allowed? Is it a case of just simply get from flag to flag however you want (or accidentally end up going) or is cutting a corner frowned on?
And for capturing times of each stage; we're supposed to show the f3 menu, but won't that be kinda tricky to do as you go powering passed the flag?  Is a screenshot taken as you pass the flag going flat out followed by the F3 menu once you've stopped ok? (and taking the time from the screenshot of you passing the flag). I'm probably fussing over a matter of a few seconds, just want to be in compliance!  

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

25 minutes ago, katateochi said:

-snippppppp-

Time warp: Holy crap, why didn't I think of that. That's the only reason I mounted a spare on the back. And for RP, but you know...

runaway rovers: drone core is my "deadman switch" until I figure out how to write a plugin for it. Maybe a KOS script, now that I think about it. 

Redundancy: ever since I learned you could clip wheels (which seems to be the only thing that didn't give "wheel blocked" until recently), i noticed that you could do kind of a progressive spring rate. One wheel a few cm higher than the other. Both maintain contact with the ground, but the spring rate increases with a "step" under squish, and is good for a little harder landings. On a lighter rover, though, you may just be adding weight to no real effect. And unsprung weight, at that. EDIT: I have no clue if they can be parent/child. I always make them share a parent part, to be safe. 

Flying starts and finishes: if were starting stages individually, there's no reason for a flying start. Flying finishes? Well, damn, I hope so .

Edited December 20, 2016 by DrunkenKerbalnaut

[katateochi]

31 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

i noticed that you could do kind of a progressive spring rate

oh that's a cool idea! I might have to try that.

31 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

I have no clue if they can be parent/child. I always make them share a parent part, to be safe.

It does seem to let you place them as parent/child, but that just feels wrong to me. Also I find it's easier to get them nicely lined up if they have the same parent. (and it's better for the redundancy thing, otherwise the loss of the parent wheel = loss of both wheels). 

[Slam_Jones]

1 hour ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

-snip-

Redundancy: ever since I learned you could clip wheels (which seems to be the only thing that didn't give "wheel blocked" until recently), i noticed that you could do kind of a progressive spring rate. One wheel a few cm higher than the other. Both maintain contact with the ground, but the spring rate increases with a "step" under squish, and is good for a little harder landings. On a lighter rover, though, you may just be adding weight to no real effect. And unsprung weight, at that. EDIT: I have no clue if they can be parent/child. I always make them share a parent part, to be safe. 

-snip-

I've considered tossing a set of landing gear on my rover that would (via kOS script) only deploy while airborne, and retract once landed.  The theory being, they will be extended and able to help cushion heavier landings, and then retracting when not needed.

Not sure how stable the whole idea is... but it's a thought

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

Just now, Slam_Jones said:

I've considered tossing a set of landing gear on my rover that would (via kOS script) only deploy while airborne, and retract once landed.  The theory being, they will be extended and able to help cushion heavier landings, and then retracting when not needed.

Not sure how stable the whole idea is... but it's a thought

They deploy pretty slow. 

[Azimech]

I made myself some route guides for along the way. If you guys like 'm too, I'll upload them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All have probe cores so you can give them descriptive names. Lizzies probe core sits somewhere between the arms. The gas station works but you need to set the flow controls right in settings. Use VesselMover to place these things. I place a gas station at every flag just in case.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Azimech

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

1 minute ago, Azimech said:

I made myself some route guides for along the way. If you guys like 'm too, I'll upload them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me see if I got this right:

Taco Truck

Fuel Station

Owl in Lamppost

Cow

T-Rex

...

yours is a colorful world, Azimech!

[Azimech]

1 minute ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

Let me see if I got this right:

Taco Truck

Fuel Station

Owl in Lamppost

Cow

T-Rex

...

yours is a colorful world, Azimech!

That's actually an I SCREAM truck. The reason? Scientists got nothing to do during the run ... so they wait in boredom hoping someone will buy ... the dish on the roof doesn't help, KSC didn't renew the sports channel subscription.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

48 minutes ago, Azimech said:

That's actually an I SCREAM truck. The reason? Scientists got nothing to do during the run ... so they wait in boredom hoping someone will buy ... the dish on the roof doesn't help, KSC didn't renew the sports channel subscription.

I worry about the cows diet. Although, energy crisis averted! I like your fuel station more than mine. 

I'm trying to test out VLC capture, but I have a 1st gen i3 and integrated graphics. Recommendations for a low overhead recorder? 30fps/720 or so?

EDIT: "OBS" seems to be alright. Better than VLC. I'll just go with it. 

Edited December 20, 2016 by DrunkenKerbalnaut

[Triop]

17 hours ago, Azimech said:

I made myself some route guides for along the way. If you guys like 'm too, I'll upload them.

 

 

 

Awesome, btw,GDJ designed these checkpoints:

I think we could use them for time screenshots, agree ?

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

It seems we have a healthy cross-section of personalities going into this rally. Some want to race to win, some want to see if they can do it, and we all fall somewhere on the spectrum between competitive and participant. The rules, if at all possible, should serve any who wishes to enter, and simply. I figured I would voice my opinion on it, and try to move the convo to the main thread for visibility. My suggestions:

Spoiler

CLASSES: 

Stock or Modded?

Wheeled or otherwise?(jets/rockets/props)

Electric or Fuel or Hybrid?

Manned or Remote?

if any of these classes becomes heavily populated, just divide by wet mass, or terrain detail. 

CONTROL:

No active control surfaces (turn off yaw/roll/pitch)

Thrust vectoring OK. 

SAS/RCS; yes please. 

No autopilot features not offered by stock, except methods that automate boost flaps, like SlamJones KOS setup. 

TIMING:

Static starts, and flying finishes. Screenshots of both, with UI clearly showing vehicle within 5 meters of the start flag and 50 meters of the finish flag for each stage. Videos would be awesome, but not necessary. Each stage performed by itself, total added up later. 

REPAIRS:

wether stock or modded you have options, at a minimum, for wheel repair and misaligned part connections (ie TimeWarp to fix misalignments). Any repairs are legal, wether during a stage or between stages, should the repair only use materials and parts that the vehicle started the Dakar with. No extra wheels or lights on support vehicles. Carry them with you. 

REPLACING ROVERS:

no. 

NIGHT STAGES:

i think everyone should have to run one stage at night, their choice. Except for pure solar entries. 

TERRAIN DETAIL:

Requiring anything above minimum limits those entrants with lower-end machines. That's why we use this as a class divisor. 

Just my 2c

Edited December 21, 2016 by DrunkenKerbalnaut

[Azimech]

@DrunkenKerbalnaut I think carrying all the spare parts is fascinating ... guess I'll have to build a trunk for my car XD

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

6 minutes ago, Azimech said:

@DrunkenKerbalnaut I think carrying all the spare parts is fascinating ... guess I'll have to build a trunk for my car XD

Well, of course it's just my view of things - and a personal limitation nonetheless. Feels pretty Dakar to me, since we can't easily drive our support vehicle a few km behind our race vehicle simultaneously. I think there used to be a mod for that, but I say screw that. K.I.S.S..

Edited December 21, 2016 by DrunkenKerbalnaut

[Triop]

23 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

It seems we have a healthy cross-section of personalities going into this rally. Some want to race to win, some want to see if they can do it, and we all fall somewhere on the spectrum between competitive and participant. The rules, if at all possible, should serve any who wishes to enter, and simply. I figured I would voice my opinion on it, and try to move the convo to the main thread for visibility. My suggestions:

  Reveal hidden contents

CLASSES: 

Stock or Modded?

Wheeled or otherwise?(jets/rockets/props)

Electric or Fuel or Hybrid?

Manned or Remote?

if any of these classes becomes heavily populated, just divide by wet mass, or terrain detail. 

CONTROL:

No active control surfaces (turn off yaw/roll/pitch)

Thrust vectoring OK. 

SAS/RCS; yes please. 

No autopilot features not offered by stock, except methods that automate boost flaps, like SlamJones KOS setup. 

TIMING:

Static starts, and flying finishes. Screenshots of both, with UI clearly showing vehicle within 5 meters of the start flag and 50 meters of the finish flag for each stage. Videos would be awesome, but not necessary. Each stage performed by itself, total added up later. 

REPAIRS:

wether stock or modded you have options, at a minimum, for wheel repair and misaligned part connections (ie TimeWarp to fix misalignments). Any repairs are legal, wether during a stage or between stages, should the repair only use materials and parts that the vehicle started the Dakar with. No extra wheels or lights on support vehicles. Carry them with you. 

REPLACING ROVERS:

no. 

NIGHT STAGES:

i think everyone should have to run one stage at night, their choice. Except for pure solar entries. 

TERRAIN DETAIL:

Requiring anything above minimum limits those entrants with lower-end machines. That's why we use this as a class divisor. 

Just my 2c

 

Thanks for your 2c, tuning this challenge is not easy but it has to stay easy access.

The biggest problem for me is timing, I like the idea of setting a max number of meters you should be by the flag, didn't think of that.

Or we can use a platform like this::

I'd still prefer the timing mod "Races!", but that has been voted off...

 

 

 

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

3 minutes ago, Triop said:

 

Thanks for your 2c, tuning this challenge is not easy but it has to stay easy access.

The biggest problem for me is timing, I like the idea of setting a max number of meters you should be by the flag, didn't think of that.

Or we can use a platform like this::

I'd still prefer the timing mod "Races!", but that has been voted off...

 

 

 

If we do the platforms, keep the part count to a minimum, as well as light counts. Until I turned physics delta time up, I had problems with more than 4 lights in a scene. I won't act like I completely understand that correlation, but I wouldn't want to ruin the fun for those still jamming windows XP   

 

EDIT: no, I don't use XP haha. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by DrunkenKerbalnaut

[Azimech]

Yeah those platforms ... I mean it's a beautiful thing but I thing the part count can be reduced by 75%. Struts for example, aren't needed at all for those things, especially not in 1.2.x

[Triop]

5 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

If we do the platforms, keep the part count to a minimum, as well as light counts. Until I turned physics delta time up, I had problems with more than 4 lights in a scene. I won't act like I completely understand that correlation, but I wouldn't want to ruin the fun for those still jamming windows XP   

Good point.

I guess the flags will stay the checkpoints.

Park as close as you can and make the screenshot.

Best I can do to please everybody.

Keep it simple, less is more.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Triop

[Azimech]

Voila, 9 parts.